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Putin recognizes the independence of Donbass

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Why? Just because you say so and that's it? No citations or elaboration, just a proclamation from @Flankerl.

Oh I am sorry, I wasn't aware that you weren't capable of typing Kievan Rus into wikipedia.

Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia'

See how it originates in Kiev and not Russia?
How Russia let alone Moscow doesn't exist?

I am unsure as to how simple I have to make it so that you may understand it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I did not invent the expression Deep State.
Someone else did. Just figure that it is an expression we use even in Italian to define ours. Il nostro Deep State.

The Deep State is much more powerful than the Congress and the POTUS. It is led by people who work for the wealthiest people in the world. Who have certain interests, like tripling their assets.
And wars do create that money. Selling weapons, tanks, for example. Controlling currencies, stock market...
Again, you have not specified what exactly is the "deep state" here and who's supposedly in it. Just because there are "interests" and "assets" and "wealth", those with them aren't necessarily culpable.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Again, you have not specified what exactly is the "deep state" here and who's supposedly in it. Just because there are "interests" and "assets" and "wealth", those with them aren't necessarily culpable.

Do you want me to say the names?
I guess one of the chiefs is going to be 100 year old...soon...
It deals with people to whom the CIA bows.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Yes, Russia is hardly blameless. But they are not the only untrustworthy players in the carnival of fools that is international politics.

Do you think it's the job of the US and her allies, to police the world? And how well do you think that's been going, up to now?

Irrelevant as Ukraine has internationally recognised borders which Russia ignores.

The idea that Ukraine has to be separate from the rest of Europe to appease Russia directly impedes the democratic decision making of Ukraine.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Do you want me to say the names?
I guess one of the chiefs is going to be 100 year old...soon...
That would be helpful.

BTW, I'm leaving shortly and won't be getting back on-line until tomorrow, so take care, my friend.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Yes, Russia is hardly blameless. But they are not the only untrustworthy players in the carnival of fools that is international politics.

Do you think it's the job of the US and her allies, to police the world? And how well do you think that's been going, up to now?
International politics relies on democracy.
Have you got a better idea?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh I am sorry, I wasn't aware that you weren't capable of typing Kievan Rus into wikipedia.

Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia'

See how it originates in Kiev and not Russia?
How Russia let alone Moscow doesn't exist?

I am unsure as to how simple I have to make it so that you may understand it.

I posted the very same link earlier in this thread. You obviously aren't paying attention. I'm well aware that it originated in Kiev and not in Moscow, and I never said otherwise. Moscow didn't arise in power until several centuries later. I already knew all this.

What is it that you don't think I understand? Seriously, what's your deal here?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That's really all it is to you. Just some comic book story with superheroes and arch villains.
No. Thousands of people were slaughtered by German bombing of cities in the UK in WWII. Lots of us have relatives killed in WWII.
We still remember the goose-stepping fascists that were responsible.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No. Thousands of people were slaughtered by German bombing of cities in the UK in WWII. Lots of us have relatives killed in WWII.
We still remember the goose-stepping fascists that were responsible.

Yes, and the Russians remember them too. The Germans did a heck of a lot more damage and loss of life in Russia than they did in the UK, in both world wars.

You'd think that allies who were united against a common enemy would share a bond and a sense of common cause, but the aftermath of that war left a severe rift between Russia and the West which never really healed.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Yes, and the Russians remember them too. The Germans did a heck of a lot more damage and loss of life in Russia than they did in the UK, in both world wars.
Personally, I don't see it as a case of "Russians" or "Germans".
It is a case of ideologies.

The goose-step originated in Prussian military drill in the mid-18th century and was called the Stechschritt (literally, "piercing step") or Stechmarsch. German military advisors spread the tradition to Russia in the 19th century, and the Soviets spread it around the world in the 20th century.
Goose step - Wikipedia
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Personally, I don't see it as a case of "Russians" or "Germans".
It is a case of ideologies.

The goose-step originated in Prussian military drill in the mid-18th century and was called the Stechschritt (literally, "piercing step") or Stechmarsch. German military advisors spread the tradition to Russia in the 19th century, and the Soviets spread it around the world in the 20th century.
Goose step - Wikipedia

Well, I don't see a style of step as an ideology. The Nazis were remembered for mass murder, genocide, aggressive invasions, tyranny, and malignant nationalism. It wouldn't have mattered if they were goose-stepping or skipping.

Goose-stepping has become closely associated with fascism largely out of historical circumstances. Sometimes it might be associated with Hugo Boss clothing styles. There are even those who think that anyone who drives a Volkswagen is a Nazi. I can't help it if people make these kinds of associations, although this getting off the subject.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
International politics relies on democracy.
Have you got a better idea?


A better idea than democracy? No, i agree with Winston Churchill, when he said democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.

I’m just not sure what qualifies democratic countries, all of which seem to have serious troubles of their own, to forcibly export their values. That never seems to go particularly well.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I posted the very same link earlier in this thread. You obviously aren't paying attention. I'm well aware that it originated in Kiev and not in Moscow, and I never said otherwise. Moscow didn't arise in power until several centuries later. I already knew all this.

What is it that you don't think I understand? Seriously, what's your deal here?

You claimed Ukraine was part of Russia.
It wasn't.
Russia was part of Kiev.


You'd think that allies who were united against a common enemy would share a bond and a sense of common cause, but the aftermath of that war left a severe rift between Russia and the West which never really healed.

Because the USSR enslaved all of Eastern Europe for 40 years and since then these countries do not want to have anything to do with their former master.

Really weird that.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You claimed Ukraine was part of Russia.
It wasn't.
Russia was part of Kiev.

Did you miss the part in your link which said "Rus'"? It was not called Kievan Ukraine, was it? No, it wasn't. My point stands.

Because the USSR enslaved all of Eastern Europe for 40 years and since then these countries do not want to have anything to do with their former master.

Really weird that.

What does this have to do with the part you quoted? I was referring to the West (US and Western Europe).
 

Mock Turtle

Trump: The USA Brexit!
Premium Member
Russian history is quite fascinating, actually. I guess you could say they've had an ongoing struggle to gain the respect they deserve. They were invaded numerous times from all directions. The Mongols from the East, the Germans from the West, the Turks from the South, and the Swedes from the North. They've been isolated and boxed in, geographically, which is why one of their main objectives was to gain an ice-free seaport. Another dimension to their history relates to the fall of Constantinople in 1453, and for the longest time, a major goal was to retake that city for Orthodoxy. They had a longstanding enmity with the Ottoman Empire and numerous wars where the Russians slowly chipped away at them, causing a gradual weakening and eventual collapse. It was similar in southeastern Europe where the Ottoman Empire had ruled for centuries.

But the Russians did gain respectability during the Napoleonic Wars, being one of the major powers to defeat Napoleon. Up until then, they had been quietly moving eastward into what is now Siberia and the Russian Far East.

One thing I could never understand was Britain's and France's reaction and involvement in the Crimean War. I could see the Russians' point of view, as they had an ongoing enmity with Turkey and wanted to retake Constantinople, but why would the British want to prevent that? What stake did they have in the Ottoman Empire? Why side with them?

There's a lot of European wars I never could understand or why different countries took different sides (or sometimes switched sides). America's Founders believed we'd be better off by staying out of those torrid affairs.

As Russia was isolated, the industrial revolution didn't really spread to that country until the late 19th century, so in that respect, they had appeared backward and agrarian compared to the burgeoning industrialized West. Their weaknesses were revealed in their poor performance against Japan in the Russo-Japanese War, and an even worse performance against the Germans in WW1. Nicholas II was considered weak and vacillating - a terrible monarch all the way around.

But by the same token, the Western Allies in WW1 never really seemed to appreciate or understand the difficulties their friend and ally in the East was going through. No doubt they were having plenty of difficulties on their own, but the Russians were starving and out of ammunition. They needed help, but the West just let them suffer and eventually hung them out to dry. After all the blood that they shed for the Allied cause; they were just tossed aside like they didn't count. The Bolsheviks gained power precisely because they said they would pull Russia out of the war, which is what the people wanted. They were sick of it.

Of course, in the aftermath, Stalin took power and pushed for rapid industrialization and collectivization of agriculture. You can blame Stalin for many things, but if you look at the "before" and "after" picture of what Russia was like before and after Stalin, you would see stark differences and marked improvements. Making a country better is about all anyone can expect from a national leader. They're not expected to be saints.

In the post-Stalinist era, there was a general thaw and a softening of policies which turned the Cold War more into a Cool War, in which many in the West were favoring detente, cooperation, and friendship with the Soviet Union. This was especially true in the US during the post-Vietnam era, when many people had had their fill of the rabid anti-communists and red scaremongers we were having to deal with. But the Iranians took actions which directly led to a resurgence in US warmongering, war fever, and brought another red scaremonger, Ronald Reagan into power. He was out to show the rest of the world that "America means business."

Russians might blame Gorbachev for weakening the Soviet state. Some credit Reagan for bringing down the Soviet Union economically and winning the Cold War. Some say it was inevitable regardless of what Reagan or Gorbachev might have done. A few words of scorn might also be said about Boris Yeltsin and his corrupt, incompetent buffoonery.

Again, the West could have handled things better before Putin came to power and when there was still a window of opportunity for warm, cordial relations with that country. The West is not innocent at all, and our own governments must acknowledge their own responsibilities here.
I think that many at the time perhaps thought Gorbachev might have made a better leader, even if this was not so, but Yeltsin seemed to be no leader material. And I suppose it was too much to expect that the transition out of communism would ever have been smooth, and the abundance of Russian billionaires no doubt came about with the help of many in the West. I just feel sorry for the Russian people - for communism and subsequently. I almost visited the USSR after leaving school but this was around the time of the Cuban affair so that might have dissuaded me from going. :oops:
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Goose-stepping has become closely associated with fascism largely out of historical circumstances..
Don't you think we have anything to learn from history?
The goose step originated in Prussia .. it represents military might.

G-d does not like those who start aggression.
Citing history as an excuse is not acceptable.

Personally, I'd rather keep away from it all.
However, Ukraine agreed to nuclear disarmament.
I think you'll find that Russia would do no such thing.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Yes, and the Russians remember them too. The Germans did a heck of a lot more damage and loss of life in Russia than they did in the UK, in both world wars.

You'd think that allies who were united against a common enemy would share a bond and a sense of common cause, but the aftermath of that war left a severe rift between Russia and the West which never really healed.

Surely between Russia and Usa never healed.
Which is strange. A very narrow strait separates USA from the Russian Federation.

Yet I can assure you that even during the Cold War my country had splendid relations with Russia.

We had the most important Communist Party in Europe and its leader was honored so much in Russia. They renamed a city on his behalf.
Tol'atti.

The Russia of the 21st century is incredibly modern and westernized (also americanized).

The problem is that there is some shady organization behind the scenes who does anything to keep Russia separated and alienated from the rest of Europe.

Russia could even join a military alliance that includes the NATO. Or rather, join the NATO itself.

Ukraine could join the European Union and be a mediator with Russia.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't you think we have anything to learn from history?
The goose step originated in Prussia .. it represents military might.

I agree that we have plenty to learn from history.

I don't put a great deal of special emphasis on the goose step, though. Any form of marching or uniforms or war medals can be seen as representing military might. The Pentagon represents military might. But that, in and of itself, doesn't prove intentions or what anyone might be planning to do.

By the way, it was a Prussian military officer who first taught and trained the U.S. Continental Army. I don't think he taught us any goose steps, though. Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben - Wikipedia

G-d does not like those who start aggression.
Citing history as an excuse is not acceptable.

As an agnostic, I would say I don't know. However, for the sake of argument, assuming God is all-powerful and all-knowing, I think He would be able to look inside everyone's hearts and judge them accordingly. This would also go for Western leaders who may be disingenuously using this crisis for their own political gain. If Russia and Ukraine have a dispute with each other, it's really their fight. It's not for other nations to interfere or take sides.

How would God look upon Westerners' irrational hatred of Russians? Would God see that as an acceptable excuse to start war?

Personally, I'd rather keep away from it all.
However, Ukraine agreed to nuclear disarmament.
I think you'll find that Russia would do no such thing.

I think it would be a tremendous waste if we launched a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia over this.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
for the sake of argument, assuming God is all-powerful and all-knowing, I think He would be able to look inside everyone's hearts and judge them accordingly..
Of course.

This would also go for Western leaders who may be disingenuously using this crisis for their own political gain.
Of course.

If Russia and Ukraine have a dispute with each other, it's really their fight. It's not for other nations to interfere or take sides.
Surely, you are not that naive.
How long did it take before US decided to take action in WWII?
Isn't it preferable to stop countries from military aggression against their neighbours, before it gets out of control?

Are you saying that NATO is defunct .. unnecessary?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Surely between Russia and Usa never healed.
Which is strange. A very narrow strait separates USA from the Russian Federation.

Yet I can assure you that even during the Cold War my country had splendid relations with Russia.

We had the most important Communist Party in Europe and its leader was honored so much in Russia. They renamed a city on his behalf.
Tol'atti.

The Russia of the 21st century is incredibly modern and westernized (also americanized).

The problem is that there is some shady organization behind the scenes who does anything to keep Russia separated and alienated from the rest of Europe.

Russia could even join a military alliance that includes the NATO. Or rather, join the NATO itself.

Ukraine could join the European Union and be a mediator with Russia.

I struggle to figure out the basis of the West's hatred of Russia. It can't be because they're authoritarian or that they've invaded other nations, since we've given a pass to other nations which have done the same things. So, there must be some other reason for the West's hostility.

Many Americans I've known tend to look at geopolitics through the lens of Bible prophecy, believing that America has some special role to fulfill for God. And in Christian Europe, the schism between the Eastern and Western Churches has been a sore point for over a millennium.

Some have mentioned that the real cause is due to economics and Western capitalists wanting to go into Russia to loot and pillage. This is also possible, but it seems extremely unlikely since the standard Western policy has been to bribe or prop up tinpot dictators around the world to exploit their resources. From that point of view, it should be far cheaper to bribe Putin than go to war with him.

On the other hand, during the Cold War, capitalists were poised to launch a nuclear war and exterminate all life on the planet, all because they were deathly afraid that they might have to live in the same neighborhoods as the...(ugh)...commoners.

So, in the final analysis, what we have here are ultra religious fanatics and capitalist megalomaniacs trying to tell us that Russians are bad people.
 
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