Putin recognizes the independence of Donbass

[Koldo]

Rus' people - Wikipedia

I still don't know what exactly you mean.
According to your source's very first line: "The Rus' people were an ethnos in early medieval eastern Europe. ". So, how do you figure if someone is russian nowadays and for the last thousand years?

 

[Stevicus]

I still don't know what exactly you mean.
According to your source's very first line: "The Rus' people were an ethnos in early medieval eastern Europe. ". So, how do you figure if someone is russian nowadays and for the last thousand years?

I was just discussing the historical background. As for how we tell nowadays, then that would be a matter of one's current citizenship and/or nationality.

I was really just addressing your claim that Ukraine was never part of Russia. The actual history is much more complicated.

The territory now known as Ukraine actually had been under the control of multiple nations, including Poland-Lithuania and Turkey. The Russians regained most of it in the 18th century, and Ukraine was an integral part of the Russian Empire up until the Revolution in 1917. After that, they were part of the Soviet Union. They had never been independent prior to 1991.

 

[Flankerl]

I was really just addressing your claim that Ukraine was never part of Russia. The actual history is much more complicated.

You have it completely upside down.

The Kievan Rus civilised the wild areas that would become Russia 800 years later.

 

[Stevicus]

You have it completely upside down.

The Kievan Rus civilised the wild areas that would become Russia 800 years later.

Okay, and...?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Europe, for some reason, didn't seem to think that their dependence on Russian oil would be used as leverage by Russia against them. Now that hen has come home to roost.

Over the past couple months, this idea of cutting gas trade from europe seems to have been more of an american motivation. I'm not entirely sure if it's a great idea, if it raises their prices, nor is exactly fair to the europeans, if it's not really their decision

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I applaud this great man.

And where exactly do you draw the line. A man is just a man. What if they go for kyiv? Or is this mere man a god who can do no wrong?

 

[Estro Felino]

And where exactly do you draw the line. A man is just a man. What if they go for kyiv? Or is this mere man a god who can do no wrong?

Putin is just interested in Russian speaking regions. Besides Donbass and Crimea...there is none.
He is certainly not interested in an Ukraine completely msnipulated by the American Deep State.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Putin is just interested in Russian speaking regions. Besides Donbass and Crimea...there is none.
He is certainly not interested in an Ukraine completely plagiarized by the American Deep State.

And what exactly does that mean, under that abstraction, in reality

 

[Estro Felino]

If being a neo-fascist, killing or imprisoning political "enemies", and starting wars is supposedly being a "great man", then he well qualifies.

By great man, I mean a man that defends his own nation and its roots.

The fact that the EU is ruled by three women proves that European men have lost that sense of responsibility that only women have.

 

[Debater Slayer]

By great man, I mean a man that defends his own nation and its roots.

The fact that the EU is ruled by three women proves that European men have lost that sense of responsibility that only women have.

Calling a dictator who is responsible for contributing to a lot of bloodshed and armed conflict a "great man" isn't a positive reflection on one's priorities or ethical concerns.

As for the strangely sexist overgeneralization about European men, I can't think of any European man in power who is as irresponsible and driven by egotistical impulses as Putin.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Ukraine became independent 30 years ago, all of it, including the Crimean and Donbas regions. Their independence was affirmed in 1994 by none other than the Russian Federation.
The Donetsk and Luhansk provinces only agitated for independence in 2014 with the help of Putin's little green men and weaponry.

I'm confused. Did history stop in 1994? Did it begin then? What about 1686, or 1783?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I was just discussing the historical background. As for how we tell nowadays, then that would be a matter of one's current citizenship and/or nationality.

I was really just addressing your claim that Ukraine was never part of Russia. The actual history is much more complicated.

The territory now known as Ukraine actually had been under the control of multiple nations, including Poland-Lithuania and Turkey. The Russians regained most of it in the 18th century, and Ukraine was an integral part of the Russian Empire up until the Revolution in 1917. After that, they were part of the Soviet Union. They had never been independent prior to 1991.

So does it depend upon which point in history one ascribes importance to?

 

[Stevicus]

So does it depend upon which point in history one ascribes importance to?

I don't think so, at least not when trying to present a historical perspective to the events in question. One thing that I've noticed is that many Americans (and perhaps this may be true for the West overall) seem to have a poor historical memory and a short attention span. This, coupled with the fact that most people can't even name their own senators or find their own state on a map, it's relatively easy to manipulate the masses into going to war.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think so, at least not when trying to present a historical perspective to the events in question. One thing that I've noticed is that many Americans (and perhaps this may be true for the West overall) seem to have a poor historical memory and a short attention span. This, coupled with the fact that most people can't even name their own senators or find their own state on a map, it's relatively easy to manipulate the masses into going to war.

Well the borders seem to have changed so much according to my atlas that displays such things over time, such that I doubt any nation has a right to a name or a populace as to being 'authentic' and often is just down to perception, and perhaps inclinations.

 

[Flankerl]

Putin is just interested in Russian speaking regions. Besides Donbass and Crimea...there is none.
He is certainly not interested in an Ukraine completely msnipulated by the American Deep State.

By great man, I mean a man that defends his own nation and its roots.

The fact that the EU is ruled by three women proves that European men have lost that sense of responsibility that only women have.

You really have fallen off the deep end.

Perhaps you should start a fun "What I believe" Thread about all the evil shenanigans going on in the world.

 

[Stevicus]

Well the borders seem to have changed so much according to my atlas that displays such things over time, such that I doubt any nation has a right to a name or a populace as to being 'authentic' and often is just down to perception, and perhaps inclinations.

I wasn't saying anything about who has the right to a name or a populace. That's beside the point.

A lot of people are trying to oversimplify this and make it all about Putin, as if he's just some kind of crazy man or wannabe Hitler who just wants to cause trouble and make war all over the world. There seems to be a lot of people who believe this, and I've noticed some level of irritation from those who are upset by people who don't believe that Putin is an imbecilic madman.

 

[Estro Felino]

You really have fallen off the deep end.

Perhaps you should start a fun "What I believe" Thread about all the evil shenanigans going on in the world.

The evil shenanigans go on in Frankfurt am Main, where the ECB building is.

I remember very well what Matteo Salvini said once (and there is also a video).
If I had to choose between Juncker and Putin, I'd choose Putin.

Why? Because the EU is light years away from the European spirit.
Which is understood by people like Putin, who is a patriotic courageous leader.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I wasn't saying anything about who has the right to a name or a populace. That's beside the point.

A lot of people are trying to oversimplify this and make it all about Putin, as if he's just some kind of crazy man or wannabe Hitler who just wants to cause trouble and make war all over the world. There seems to be a lot of people who believe this, and I've noticed some level of irritation from those who are upset by people who don't believe that Putin is an imbecilic madman.

I think Putin is a thug and a gangster, but that doesn't mean I accept the narrative being sold to us by my government and yours. Russian insistence that Ukraine not be allowed to join NATO seems entirely reasonable, and the fact no western government seems willing to see the geopolitical realities from a Russian perspective, does not bode well for a negotiated settlement. Ignorance of Russian history, it's relations with the west, and it's absolute commitment to retaining the Crimea, seems pretty universal in the west, sadly.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I wasn't saying anything about who has the right to a name or a populace. That's beside the point.

A lot of people are trying to oversimplify this and make it all about Putin, as if he's just some kind of crazy man or wannabe Hitler who just wants to cause trouble and make war all over the world. There seems to be a lot of people who believe this, and I've noticed some level of irritation from those who are upset by people who don't believe that Putin is an imbecilic madman.

He's obviously not an imbecile or mad, but he might be delusional as to what he thinks Russia should be as a country and as to the respect it deserves. If one looks at the history, one might blame much on past leaders - such as Stalin and his early friendship with Germany, and where this gamble rather back-fired on Russia. And also, given the lack of economic success of the country (with regards to so many others), the power that Russia has wielded in the past mainly has come from owning nuclear weapons - so much like North Korea, and being more like inflated ego.

 

[Estro Felino]

Possibly, although my impression is that he's a Russian nationalist, and there's been a strong resurgence in the Orthodox Church in Russia these past years. Trying to restore the USSR would be incongruous with the apparent restoration of religion and the canonization of the Romanovs.

Maybe he wants to restore the old Russian Empire instead. But that would be like trying to revive the old Confederate States of America. Just ain't gonna happen. Still, it's hard to speculate as to what may be going through the mind of Vladimir Putin.

Bolshevism had tried to dechristianize Russian and to turn it into a rootless nihilistic country.
They had succeeded for many years.
The spirit of the people narodniy duh burst out after 1989 and it was Putin who worked to restore the memory of Russian roots, also thanks to the Orthodox Church.