Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

[Subduction Zone]

I won't believe it until there is corroborating evidence in the National Enquirer and the New York Post.

How about a Christian site that explains how the popular press got it wrong?

Did 90% of Animal Species Appear about the Same Time as Human Beings?

 

[Skwim]

I also kinda wonder who these 8% are, given how any "evolutionist" within the JWs will be disfellowshipped (i.e., kicked out of the faith and shunned by JW friends and family).

I guess maybe they just keep their views to themselves, until the right survey comes along?

My guess is that they're closet evolutionists.

Also, don't anyone dare suggest that being a Jehovah's Witness plays any role at all in shaping their views on evolution. I made that suggestion to @nPeace and he absolutely wigged out, ran away, and put me on ignore. Apparently it's something they just don't want to talk about.

NPease can do whatever he likes, and of course it's something they don't want to talk about. They don't know enough about evolution to defend their attack on it.

.

 

[Skwim]

Atheists don't tend to think much about the stuff they believe, do they?

I find it extremely difficult to believe that as much as 8% of active JW's in good standing believe in the nonsensical theory of evolution. The source of the quote you used on JW's and Satan isn't sourced itself and highly suspect. I've read JW literature going back to 1955 and can't recall anything like that being said.

So, is it incorrect? Is

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."​

untrue?

Of all of the JW's I've known here in the U.S. only one has not had a high school graduation.

As if you queried them all as to their education. Yeah sure. "Hi, I'm Earthling and I!!! graduated from 12th grade.

How far did you get in school?"

.

 

[Earthling]

So, is it incorrect? Is

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."​

untrue?


As if you queried them all as to their education. Yeah sure. "Hi, I'm Earthling and I!!! graduated from 12th grade.

How far did you get in school?"

.

No, that wasn't me that was your pollster.

 

[ChristineM]

According to the Daily Mail, the JWs may be correct

All humans are descended from just TWO people and a catastrophic event almost wiped out ALL species 100,000 years ago, scientists claim

• Genetic 'bar codes' of five million animals from different species were surveyed
• The research deduced that humans and animals sprang from single pair
• This happened after a catastrophic event a long time after the last ice age

Every person was spawned from single pair of adults living up to 200,000 years ago, scientists claim | Daily Mail Online

I heard it was 6 people, dna points to 5 males and one lucky female.

The mail is not a good source, classed as fake news, even Wikipedia have stopped citing it.

 

[Skwim]

And I don't believe it. Not very well thought out.

How about this. As of 2016 there were 324,118,787 Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA*, which means that two years ago there were almost 26 million JWs--- (25,929,550 [8%])---who agree that evolution is the best explanation for the origins of human life on earth.

26 million
​

No wonder you refuse to believe it.

It's too much to bear.​

* source

.

 

[Skwim]

No, that wasn't me that was your pollster.

Wasn't really anyone's pollster, but rather RationalWiki

So, is what they said incorrect?

Is

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."​

untrue?

.

.

 

[Earthling]

How about this. As of 2016 there were 324,118,787 Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA*, which means that two years ago there were almost 26 million JWs--- (25,929,550 [8%])---who agree that evolution is the best explanation for the origins of human life on earth.

26 million!!!
​

No wonder you refuse to believe it.

It's too much to bear.​

* source

.

There's only a peak membership of 8.45 million JWs worldwide. I doubt there's ever been 300 million in their 200 year history.

 

[Earthling]

Wasn't really anyone's pollster, but rather RationalWiki

So, is what they said incorrect?

Is

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."​

untrue?

.

.

Look, I'll be the first in line to openly criticize the JW's as I have here before, but I just don't think they are stupid enough to buy into the theory of evolution in the numbers you suggest. Of course they don't even exist anywhere near the numbers you suggest. But that statement above doesn't sound like something they would print. They may think it but they wouldn't likely print it. I could be wrong. No big deal.

But 8% of JWs believe in Darwinian Evolution? They don't have the pack mentality to fall for it like the rest of mankind.

 

[Salvador]

According to the Daily Mail, the JWs may be correct

All humans are descended from just TWO people and a catastrophic event almost wiped out ALL species 100,000 years ago, scientists claim

• Genetic 'bar codes' of five million animals from different species were surveyed
• The research deduced that humans and animals sprang from single pair
• This happened after a catastrophic event a long time after the last ice age

Every person was spawned from single pair of adults living up to 200,000 years ago, scientists claim | Daily Mail Online

As I've noted elsewhere in some other discussions about Christianity, Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological.

 

[Deeje]

I'm not surprised that many of them agree with me.
I've a couple JW friends, & they seem sharp.

We try not to be dull Revolt.....or dumb. We like common sense better than academic degrees....they are way more useful to a genuinely productive life. I guarantee that we, as a group are happier than all the atheists put together.

I often wonder why people have to pick us out to address our beliefs so much. We are just a minority group with a common sense message.....all based on the Bible....makes you wonder if we are some kind of threat to the godless and the churches alike.......

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well...as for Catholics, it's much more than the 58%, I think.
Since Evolution is what is taught in all Catholic Universities...

Università Cattolica del Sacro Cuore - Wikipedia

All Catholic Universities?
1) The 58% was based on US Catholics, so an Italian Catholic University has no bearing.
2) Making statements for ALL Catholic universities seems fraught with danger, but since (only) 26% of Catholics completed a college degree, and there is no guarantee how many of those attended Catholic universities, nor how many took science subjects anyway...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We try not to be dull Revolt.....or dumb. We like common sense better than academic degrees....they are way more useful to a genuinely productive life.

Despite the assertions of some, it is entirely possible to have both common sense and an academic degree. Or even two.

I guarantee that we, as a group are happier than all the atheists put together.

Meh...I know that where I live just got rated the happiest place in Australia, and I'm an atheist. I won't go further than that on judging others.

I often wonder why people have to pick us out to address our beliefs so much. We are just a minority group with a common sense message.....all based on the Bible....makes you wonder if we are some kind of threat to the godless and the churches alike.......

There are multiple reasons, I would say (not suggesting these are all valid);
1) Blood transfusion cases get press, especially where kids are involved.
2) You guys knock on people's doors.
3) You're 'the other Christians'. That means both Christians (or so-called Christians, or whatever you might say) and the godless heathens differ from you.

But if it makes you feel better, most groups seem to think they are unfairly focused on from time to time. Lucky I don't belong to a group!

 

[Oeste]

You can't be a practicing homosexual and a JW.

Of course you can. You just can't get caught, that's all.

As long as the JW doesn't confess they're a practicing homosexual their good standing in the WT will remain.

You can't be a believer in evolution and be a JW.

I don't see why not.

The WT doesn't care much what the individual JW's think privately, nor does it matter much what's in your heart. It's what you say and do publicly that matters.

Do you go to meetings? Do you go on field service? Do you nod your head correctly when reading WT literature? Are you willing to out a friend or family? Do you volunteer regularly? Do you praise the Organization?

On the other hand, God is quite concerned with an individual's heart, more so than what they do or say publicly, so there's a vast difference between being a Christian in good standing before God, and being a JW in good standing before the Watchtower. The same holds true for other Christian denominations.

 

[Earthling]

Of course you can. You just can't get caught, that's all.

As long as the JW doesn't confess they're a practicing homosexual their good standing in the WT will remain.

Correct, thanks for making that point. I should have stipulated this.

I don't see why not.

The WT doesn't care much what the individual JW's think privately, nor does it matter much what's in your heart. It's what you say and do publicly that matters.

Do you go to meetings? Do you go on field service? Do you nod your head correctly when reading WT literature? Are you willing to out a friend or family? Do you volunteer regularly? Do you praise the Organization?

On the other hand, God is quite concerned with an individual's heart, more so than what they do or say publicly, so there's a vast difference between being a Christian in good standing before God, and being a JW in good standing before the Watchtower. The same holds true for other Christian denominations.

Again, thanks for the correction, you are absolutely correct.

 

[nPeace]

My guess is that they're closet evolutionists.

View attachment 25571​

NPease can do whatever he likes, and of course it's something they don't want to talk about. They don't know enough about evolution to defend their attack on it.

.

Yes. It's a free world, isn't it?
Anyone who says JWs don't want to talk about evolution is not speaking truth, are they? The youngest JW talks about evolution. Don't believe me?
You are invited to attend our annual conventions, and read of those experiences in our publications. I think most here know our official website by now.

How is it the youngest JW can talk to tutors and professors about evolution? For one thing, they are taught to use a sound mind, and reason.
Secondly they do know enough about evolution to defend their stance against it, unlike nPeace, who is the most ignorant about science, the theory of evolution, and atheism.

What do they know?

Spoiler

I guess you'll have to ask them. Apparently poor nPeace is too ignorant to know.

I think it's safe to say though, that when people don't want to believe something...

Spoiler

they will believe anything.
Perhaps it is common knowledge that JW do not believe in eternal torment in hell fire.
Enjoy...

What do we know? One day we will.

Spoiler

The age of the earth.
1779 - about 75,000 years old
1790s - 96 million years old
1856 - 22 million years old
1862 - between 20 million and 400 million years old

In Darwin's theory of evolution, the process of random heritable variation with cumulative selection requires great durations of time. (According to modern biology, the total evolutionary history from the beginning of life to today has taken place since 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago, the amount of time which passed since the last universal ancestor of all living organisms as shown by geological dating.)

1869 - Darwin's great advocate, Thomas H. Huxley, attacked Thomson's calculations, suggesting they appeared precise in themselves but were based on faulty assumptions.

1892 - 18 million years old
In 1895 John Perry challenged Kelvin's figure on the basis of his assumptions on conductivity, and Oliver Heaviside entered the dialogue, considering it "a vehicle to display the ability of his operator method to solve problems of astonishing complexity."

Other scientists backed up Thomson's figures. Charles Darwin's son, the astronomer George H. Darwin, proposed that Earth and Moon had broken apart in their early days when they were both molten. He calculated the amount of time it would have taken for tidal friction to give Earth its current 24-hour day. His value of 56 million years added additional evidence that Thomson was on the right track.

The last estimate Thomson gave, in 1897, was: "that it was more than 20 and less than 40 million year old, and probably much nearer 20 than 40". In 1899 and 1900, John Joly calculated the rate at which the oceans should have accumulated salt from erosion processes, and determined that the oceans were about 80 to 100 million years old.

In 1892 Kelvin arrived at an estimate of about 100 million years old
In 1895, John Perry produced an age-of-Earth estimate of 2 to 3 billion years old
Kelvin stuck by his estimate of 100 million years, and later reduced it to about 20 million years old

The discovery of radioactivity introduced another factor in the calculation.
Invention of radiometric dating
[After some years (1904 - 1960s) of numerous assumptions...]
An age of 4.55 ± 0.07 billion years, very close to today's accepted age, was determined by Clair Cameron Patterson using uranium-lead isotope dating (specifically lead-lead dating) on several meteorites including the Canyon Diablo meteorite and published in 1956.

[Today...]
The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%). This age may represent the age of the Earth's accretion, of core formation, or of the material from which the Earth formed. This dating is based on evidence from radiometric age-dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.
..........
It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact amount of time this accretion process took is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few million up to about 100 million years, the exact age of Earth is difficult to determine. It is also difficult to determine the exact age of the oldest rocks on Earth, exposed at the surface, as they are aggregates of minerals of possibly different ages.

Does anyone know the History of evolutionary thought?

While he may be ignorant about science and theory of evolution nPeace seems to know what the Bible says, for example in Proverbs 2:21, 22 21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. 22 As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

 

[nPeace]

We try not to be dull Revolt.....or dumb. We like common sense better than academic degrees....they are way more useful to a genuinely productive life. I guarantee that we, as a group are happier than all the atheists put together.

I often wonder why people have to pick us out to address our beliefs so much. We are just a minority group with a common sense message.....all based on the Bible....makes you wonder if we are some kind of threat to the godless and the churches alike.......

You know what they say Deeje... "When elephants walk by, dogs bark."

 

[Revoltingest]

We try not to be dull Revolt.....or dumb. We like common sense better than academic degrees....they are way more useful to a genuinely productive life. I guarantee that we, as a group are happier than all the atheists put together.

We might be happier than you think.
(It's a lack of imposed guilt & obligations thingie.)

I often wonder why people have to pick us out to address our beliefs so much. We are just a minority group with a common sense message.....all based on the Bible....makes you wonder if we are some kind of threat to the godless and the churches alike.......

I think it's other believers who pick on you guys most. But to us
heathens, your beliefs typically aren't any weirder than others.
(I couldn't even tell you much about them.)

 

[Earthling]

Yes. It's a free world, isn't it?
Anyone who says JWs don't want to talk about evolution is not speaking truth, are they? The youngest JW talks about evolution. Don't believe me?
You are invited to attend our annual conventions, and read of those experiences in our publications. I think most here know our official website by now.

How is it the youngest JW can talk to tutors and professors about evolution? For one thing, they are taught to use a sound mind, and reason.
Secondly they do know enough about evolution to defend their stance against it, unlike nPeace, who is the most ignorant about science, the theory of evolution, and atheism.

What do they know?

Spoiler

I guess you'll have to ask them. Apparently poor nPeace is too ignorant to know.

I think it's safe to say though, that when people don't want to believe something...

Spoiler

they will believe anything.
Perhaps it is common knowledge that JW do not believe in eternal torment in hell fire.
Enjoy...

What do we know? One day we will.

Spoiler

The age of the earth.
1779 - about 75,000 years old
1790s - 96 million years old
1856 - 22 million years old
1862 - between 20 million and 400 million years old

In Darwin's theory of evolution, the process of random heritable variation with cumulative selection requires great durations of time. (According to modern biology, the total evolutionary history from the beginning of life to today has taken place since 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago, the amount of time which passed since the last universal ancestor of all living organisms as shown by geological dating.)

1869 - Darwin's great advocate, Thomas H. Huxley, attacked Thomson's calculations, suggesting they appeared precise in themselves but were based on faulty assumptions.

1892 - 18 million years old
In 1895 John Perry challenged Kelvin's figure on the basis of his assumptions on conductivity, and Oliver Heaviside entered the dialogue, considering it "a vehicle to display the ability of his operator method to solve problems of astonishing complexity."

Other scientists backed up Thomson's figures. Charles Darwin's son, the astronomer George H. Darwin, proposed that Earth and Moon had broken apart in their early days when they were both molten. He calculated the amount of time it would have taken for tidal friction to give Earth its current 24-hour day. His value of 56 million years added additional evidence that Thomson was on the right track.

The last estimate Thomson gave, in 1897, was: "that it was more than 20 and less than 40 million year old, and probably much nearer 20 than 40". In 1899 and 1900, John Joly calculated the rate at which the oceans should have accumulated salt from erosion processes, and determined that the oceans were about 80 to 100 million years old.

In 1892 Kelvin arrived at an estimate of about 100 million years old
In 1895, John Perry produced an age-of-Earth estimate of 2 to 3 billion years old
Kelvin stuck by his estimate of 100 million years, and later reduced it to about 20 million years old

The discovery of radioactivity introduced another factor in the calculation.
Invention of radiometric dating
[After some years (1904 - 1960s) of numerous assumptions...]
An age of 4.55 ± 0.07 billion years, very close to today's accepted age, was determined by Clair Cameron Patterson using uranium-lead isotope dating (specifically lead-lead dating) on several meteorites including the Canyon Diablo meteorite and published in 1956.

[Today...]
The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%). This age may represent the age of the Earth's accretion, of core formation, or of the material from which the Earth formed. This dating is based on evidence from radiometric age-dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.
..........
It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact amount of time this accretion process took is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few million up to about 100 million years, the exact age of Earth is difficult to determine. It is also difficult to determine the exact age of the oldest rocks on Earth, exposed at the surface, as they are aggregates of minerals of possibly different ages.

Does anyone know the History of evolutionary thought?

While he may be ignorant about science and theory of evolution nPeace seems to know what the Bible says, for example in Proverbs 2:21, 22 21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. 22 As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

Why, it almost seems that science is grossly overestimated in it's ability to speculate accurately regarding Jehovah God's wonderful creation!

They ain't so smart as they like to think. . .

 

[nPeace]

Why, it almost seems that science is grossly overestimated in it's ability to speculate accurately regarding Jehovah God's wonderful creation!

They ain't so smart as they like to think. . .

Not only is there a gross lack there, but worst, the oppossers fail to see how sadly lacking their own wisdom is, even though it's right in front of their nose, and written down in the very book they despise.
1 Corinthians 3:18-21
18 Let no one deceive himself: If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men; for all things belong to you,