So.... I'm supposed to follow humble sounding fools who refuse to boast?
That is the complete opposite description of every door knocking theist I have ever met. Perhaps you guys should get a better PR manager? Just some friendly advice.
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Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
That is the complete opposite description of every door knocking theist I have ever met. Perhaps you guys should get a better PR manager? Just some friendly advice.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I can't take advice of that kind. It would not be wisdom on my part.
. . .a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. . .(1 Corinthians 2:14)
What does that even mean?
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
We try not to be dull Revolt.....or dumb. We like common sense better than academic degrees....they are way more useful to a genuinely productive life. I guarantee that we, as a group are happier than all the atheists put together.
I often wonder why people have to pick us out to address our beliefs so much. We are just a minority group with a common sense message.....all based on the Bible....makes you wonder if we are some kind of threat to the godless and the churches alike.......
The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species.
Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:
Chromosome 2 in humans
Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)
Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.
The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.
Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent
Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
8%. A telling demonstration of the major misinformation indoctrination that goes on within the JW faith, which is no doubt abetted by their lack of higher education. Almost a fifth of their members never graduated from high school, the poorest showing of all the listed denominations.
Then there's this:
"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."
source
One has to wonder why Satan picked on the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology to mislead those living in the last few 160 years, particularly when one considers its poor showing---only 33% of adults believe humans existed in their present form from the beginning.* One would think he would have picked a more profitable enterprise with which to mislead humans. Of course Satan, pagan philosophy, and a depraved Christian clergy have nothing to do with the dissemination of evolution, the basis of the JW ire, but the simple fact that JWs can't sell their literal reading of the Bible without using them to demonize its enemy, evolution. Evolutionary biology and those fields of science that support it aren't just wrong, but carry the heinous marks of the devil, paganism, and depravity. "Therefore dear JW member, don't even go near evolutionary writings lest ye be pulled away from your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and fall into lie filled pit of deception."
So, other than the 8% who know better, JWs come away with all the distorted talking points against evolution, but without the ability to back them up. Not that this comes as any surprise, but wouldn't it be nice if someone from the 8% came on board and stood up to the other 92%. However, I'm afraid it won't happen. The JWs are well known for their intolerance of competing ideas being circulated among members.
*source
.
In addition to the fossil record as supporting evidence for evolution, other collaborating evidence (i.e.- overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species) should be used as evidence that evolution theory is a proven fact.
Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:
Chromosome 2 in humans
Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)
Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.
The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.
Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent
Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.
There is all this evidence that humans and other great apes share a common ancestry; which maybe isn't getting taught in biology classes.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Hi Salvador, I wonder if you can help me.The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species.
Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:
Chromosome 2 in humans
Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)
Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.
The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.
Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent
Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.
I was searching for other examples of fused chromosomes, but can't find any. Do you know of any, you can point me to? Thanks.
Also, are there any humans that do not have this "fused" chromosome 2?
Why do you think this is not a matter of design?
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
The first individual of the genus Homo-species formed from a couple of Australopithecus hetero zygotes, each of whom had the same type of chromosome rearrangements formed by fusion of the whole long arms of two acrocentric chromosomes, mated together and reproduced viable and fertile offspring with 46 chromosomes.
This first generation of Homo habilis then incestuously bred with each other and reproduced the next subsequent generation of Homo habilis.
References:
- J. Tjio and A. Levan. 1956. The chromosome number of Man. Hereditas, 42( 1-2): 1-6.
- W. Ijdo et al.1991. Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusión. PNAS, 88: 9051-9056.
- Meyer et al. 2012 A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual. Science, 338:222-226.; K. H. Miga. 2016. Chromosome-specific Centromere sequences provide an estímate of the Ancestral Chromosome 2 Fusion event in Hominin Genome.Journ. of Heredity. 1-8. Doi:10.1093/jhered/esw039.
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Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
There is indeed a mark of extraterrestrial intelligence left in our genetic coding as evident by how the numeric and semantic message of 037 appears in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Start codons express 0 at the beginning of 37 Hence, the meaningful numeric and semantic message of 037 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s) with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth.
Exactly who/what left its/their mark in our genetic coding might not ever get determined by anybody presently bound to Earth. The search for our cosmic relatives and cosmic common ancestor likely then needs to be done with advanced space exploration. I'd like to urge everybody who's interested in our cosmic ancestry, then to please advise our Senate, Congress and President to expand our tax-payer funded resources for advance space exploration.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There are examples of split or fused chromosomes in quite a few species. Horses have 64 chromosomes, zebras have only 32 to 46 depending upon species. Yet they can still interbreed. Here is an article on observed chromosome fusions:
Survival of Chromosomal Changes
And the problem with "design" is that it is not even properly defined when it comes to life. As a result there is no evidence at all for it.
I'm suggesting that claiming to have the "Truth" is arrogant at best. Yet the passage from your own Holy Book you cited claims not to be boastful and preaches humility.
What is more boastful than claiming that your group (doesn't matter which group) holds the only and true interpretation of God's word?
Jedster
Flying through space
Skwim
Veteran Member
Excuse my misnomer. I should have said they don't know how to discuss evolution, at least with evolutionists.Anyone who says JWs don't want to talk about evolution is not speaking truth, are they? The youngest JW talks about evolution.Don't believe me?
Okay.What do they know?
I guess you'll have to ask them. Apparently poor nPeace is too ignorant to know.
.
It could well be that the 8% might be taking about adaptation (micro-evolution) rather than the far fetched notion that single celled organisms can morph themselves into dinosaurs (macro-evolution).
We can see that adaptation is a mechanism in living things that can change their appearance to adapt to changes in climate, food supply or environment....these are relatively minor changes that do not take a creature outside of its taxonomic family, but facilitate survival.
Macro-evolution suggests that all creatures got here by means that are not testable or demonstrable. It's all based on educated guessing not facts.
There is no proof that these people ever existed as ancestors of modern man. They are a figment of science's imagination. Humans have always been human...apes have always been apes. They still are.
Even in today's world there are primitive people still in existence.
A
There is no proof that these people ever existed as ancestors of modern man. They are a figment of science's imagination. Humans have always been human...apes have always been apes. They still are.
Even in today's world there are primitive people still in existence.
Actually there is plenty of proof, my avatar is just one fragment of that proof.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Thanks.The first individual of the genus Homo-species formed from a couple of Australopithecus hetero zygotes, each of whom had the same type of chromosome rearrangements formed by fusion of the whole long arms of two acrocentric chromosomes, mated together and reproduced viable and fertile offspring with 46 chromosomes.
This first generation of Homo habilis then incestuously bred with each other and reproduced the next subsequent generation of Homo habilis.
References:
- J. Tjio and A. Levan. 1956. The chromosome number of Man. Hereditas, 42( 1-2): 1-6.
- W. Ijdo et al.1991. Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusión. PNAS, 88: 9051-9056.
- Meyer et al. 2012 A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual. Science, 338:222-226.; K. H. Miga. 2016. Chromosome-specific Centromere sequences provide an estímate of the Ancestral Chromosome 2 Fusion event in Hominin Genome.Journ. of Heredity. 1-8. Doi:10.1093/jhered/esw039.
This can all look and sound compelling, but it doesn't verify anything.
It's like looking at circumstantial evidence, and reaching a conclusion without having solid evidence.
That has and still continues to lead to wrong judgments.
What may look convincing, is not necessarily true.
The most that can be said, if one is honest, is that the evidence for the hypothesis can be a strong argument for those who present it - which can be said for many arguments... but it isn't "a done deal". It's not fact - although evolutionist want it to be.
Would you agree?
For example,
For decades, scientists assumed that the relatively small pelvic bones found in whales were simple remnants of their land-dwelling past, “useless vestiges” that served no real purpose, akin to the human appendix or tailbone.
A new study, co-authored by Erik Otárola-Castillo, a fellow in David Pilbeam’s paleoanthropology lab in the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, suggests that the bones, in fact, have a very specific purpose — particularly when it comes to making baby whales and baby dolphins.
I'm not a scientist, but they are scientists that do not agree with these assumptions.
New Research Debunks Human Chromosome Fusion
Chromosome Fusion? It’s Getting Harder and Harder to Believe.
Robertsonian translocation (ROB) is the most common form of chromosomal rearrangement in humans where the participating chromosomes break at their centromeres and the long arms fuse to form a single, large chromosome with a single centromere.
It would not be a first that they are wrong.
We cannot just take what "looks to be", and declare that it is.
Otherwise, you would have to admit that the arguments presented by ID Creationist, have been wrongly called pseudoscience.
Would you agree? How do you test and observe it? You can't.
I have a question though.
How do bacteria survive without a host?
This too would be considered pseudoscience, wouldn't it?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Thanks.
A regular occurrence.
Gibbon genome sequence deepens understanding of primates rapid chromosomal rearrangements
There is however a definition for design that is accepted, and works.
Think of it as you do the term species.
You have done a pretty good job here at pointing out a serious, self-inflicted flaw of JW doctrine.
It is unfortunate that you seen to somehow blame non-JWs for that flaw.