Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

[Subduction Zone]

That was another thread...I posted the evidence. You know, the evidence including the Pleistocene extinctions, which geologists can't agree with? And which, accordingly, you never could debunk the explanation provided by the Genesis account of the Flood.

For those who are interested:
Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

No, you didn't. You only demonstrated that you do not understand the concept of evidence.

And I debunked the flood myth many times over. We could do it again.

 

[ecco]

Uh, no. It's a thread about Putting the JW stand on evolution in perspective.

The JW stand on evolution is: IT NEVER HAPPENED - I KNOW BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO.

Find that exact phrase in our publications....where it's discussing evolution, and it's expressing the writers' view.....I'll give you $1,000.

It really doesn't matter what is written in your publications. The truth is that you disbelieve evolution because it conflicts with your religious beliefs. PERIOD.


Besides, we know that JW lies to its believers just as it lies to everyone else. The following JW website asserts that science claims "Evolution is a proven fact."

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/teen-questions/should-i-believe-in-evolution/
CLAIM: Evolution is a proven fact.​

That's a lie on multiple levels.

Why does JW lie? Why do you accept the lies of JW?

Here is another example of the deceitfulness of JW from the same site:

Despite decades of research, scientists have yet to come up with an explanation for evolution that they can all agree on.​

There are differences of opinion in all branches of human endeavor.

All cars were rear wheel drive. Now most are front wheel drive. If we go by JW's view, cars cannot be real.

By that same viewpoint, since JW's were so often wrong about the End Of Times, JW must be as false as evolution. To believe otherwise is to be a hypocrite.

 

[Skwim]

Find that exact phrase in our publications....where it's discussing evolution, and it's expressing the writers' view.....I'll give you $1,000.

Doesn't have to be an exact phrase. I believe JW's own publication announces as much.

"If evolution is true, life has no lasting purpose". ​

Assuming that JWs believe that life does have a lasting purpose we can construct the following syllogism (rephrased a bit to make it clearer---It takes the Camenes form).

Evolution is true then life has no lasting purpose................M then P

Life has a lasting purpose (double negative) is true............No P is S

_________________________

It is not true that evolution is true........................................No S is M​

.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why? Deeje does it quite a bit.

Also, your post to SZ where you claim we couldn't debunk your assertions about the flood strikes me as extremely funny. If that's the case, why shouldn't I be able to rate it as such?

Take it up with Administrators, then.

You think you did?

 

[Jose Fly]

Take it up with Administrators, then.

Why would I do that? You're the one complaining about the practice, not me. Maybe you should take it up with Deeje since you're the one who seems to have a problem with it.

You think you did?

The fact that you ran away from almost everything I posted to you, and continued to do so even in this thread speaks volumes.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The truth is that you disbelieve evolution because it conflicts with your religious beliefs.

No that's actually wrong. I never did find substantial reasons for believing complex information originates from mindless forces, way before I became a member of any religion.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why would I do that? You're the one complaining about the practice, not me. Maybe you should take it up with Deeje since you're the one who seems to have a problem with it.


The fact that you ran away from almost everything I posted to you, and continued to do so even in this thread speaks volumes.

I think the RF administration here, had a problem with it. Am I wrong?

Grief, you really want to fight, about stupid stuff.

 

[Jose Fly]

I think the RF administration here, had a problem with it. Am I wrong?

No idea.

Grief, you really want to fight, about stupid stuff.

Hilarious. You complain about @SkepticThinker doing it, but as soon as it's pointed out that Deeje does it too, suddenly it's just "stupid stuff".

 

[Subduction Zone]

No that's actually wrong. I never did find substantial reasons for believing complex information originates from mindless forces, way before I became a member of any religion.

I seriously doubt that you did. Odds are that you merely misinterpreted observations. Without out an understanding of the basics of science it is easy to misinterpret what you see.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No idea.


Hilarious. You complain about @SkepticThinker doing it, but as soon as it's pointed out that Deeje does it too, suddenly it's just "stupid stuff".

Technically he is right. It is against the TOS to abuse the smilies that way. One can report people for doing that. That he excuses those on his side when they break the rules tells us that proper conduct is not what he is concerned about.

 

[savagewind]

If I were going to start a cult with myself as Leader, I would tell my would-be followers:

That I am the only way to the truth
Those that deny my truth are fools
The only way your lives will have purpose is to do my bidding
Do my bidding, you will be rewarded

That sounds very familiar. I wonder if the Jehovah's Witnesses here recognize their Governing Body?

 

[Jose Fly]

Technically he is right. It is against the TOS to abuse the smilies that way. One can report people for doing that.

Sure, I can see that. Of course I wonder how mgm't can discern the true intent though. Like I noted to @Hockeycowboy I find the posts where he claims people couldn't refute his claims in the flood thread to be absolutely hilarious. So if I rated them as "funny", it wouldn't be mocking, but rather is an expression of genuine amusement.

EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the forum rules and guidelines, I don't see anything against rating posts as "funny".

That he excuses those on his side when they break the rules tells us that proper conduct is not what he is concerned about.

Well yeah.

HC: You rated my post as funny....that's against the rules!

JF: *ahem*.....Deeje does it too.

HC: Oh.....er.....um......this is all just stupid stuff.​

 

[savagewind]

Find that exact phrase in our publications....where it's discussing evolution, and it's expressing the writers' view.....I'll give you $1,000.

Like you would really accept any definition I'd give, lol!

"Many species remain virtually unchanged for millions of years, then suddenly disappear to be replaced by a quite different, but related, form. Moreover, most major groups of animals appear abruptly in the fossil record, fully formed, and with no fossils yet discovered that form a transition from their parent group"

-- C.P. Hickman, L.S. Roberts, and F.M. Hickman, Integrated Principles of Zoology, p. 866 (Times Mirror/Moseby College Publishing, 1988, 8th ed).

If there are no obvious precursors...just what do you think that means?!

It means that people have to get busy looking.

 

[savagewind]

Yep, that's pretty much what Jesus said.

Many Christians see the value in it!

Pretty much? Even number two?

 

[Deeje]

To me, that is false hope. As I indicated to you before, people can learn to live without these promises, but if they have already been told them and believed them, it may be more difficult. They have to start while they are still young enough to adapt to authentic living.

Hmmmm...what does "authentic" mean in this context? I see my own life as being just as "authentic" as yours. We just differ on the details of our belief systems. I freely acknowledge my belief system.....You don't think you have one....

Sure it does. Secular humanism offers a shot at an authentic existence and intellectual and moral maturity. Much better than pie-in-the-sky "solutions."

"Pie-in-the-sky"? It must be so 'liberating' to lose hope of anything improving in the future. Do you have faith in humanity to solve the problems plaguing the world at present? Did David Attenborough's speech at the climate summit in Poland move you at all? Is there anyone more expert on the effects of climate change than this man?

Have the humans ever figured out a way to keep making money without polluting the life out of this planet? When money comes before humanity or the ecology....you see the result everywhere in the world today (but only if you remove the blinkers.) God didn't do this....man did....yet somehow you still believe in him?

Learning to live without God is like learning to live without sight or without hearing or limbs.....you can do it, but it just makes living harder.
When you have no legs, its good to have a wheelchair......you know....?

With a little help, you can become a champion and regain your hope....and make your life worthwhile again.

Disagree. Everybody capable of being happy should be happy, even in a world where bad things happen. Too bad you can' do that.

By the way, weren't you telling us earlier how happy you are? What happened to nobody should be happy if everybody isn't then?

From what you post, it seems as if you can ignore the plight of others because you don't have to deal with those problems in your life.
What are the humanists doing to fix the world? We have a powerful champion......who do you have? What is your hope? Is it any more well founded than mine? Be honest.

What you see from me is that it is possible to be happy even in a world where some are unhappy or suffering. To bad that has been taken from you by a false doctrine.

Nothing is taken from me with the hope I have for the future.....all would be taken from me if I had to rely on my fellow man to solve the pressing problems of living in today's world. Unless you hadn't noticed, things are not getting better. Humanity is not addressing the problems that it created.

I have everything I want. I have love, freedom, good health, leisure, and freedom from want. If that's the result of exploitation, give me more. I'd be happy with another thirty years of this exploitation.

So those who profit from the financial benefits of unbridled greed, with no responsibility taken for the damage done to humanity, are AOK with you? I'm confused.....is this what secular humanism produces in people.....co-responsibility because you enjoy the benefits whilst ignoring the fallout......nice.

Maybe you were thinking of yourself.

Or perhaps its people like you who think only of themselves. It certainly appears that way.

What were you hoping to see? A rope binding them together? Two creatures that are related as antecedent and descendant will have multiple commonalites, the more the closer in time they lived. The same is true in your family. What would link your paternal grandmother to your father if only their two skeletons were found? They will have many anatomical differences in their skeletons. And their genomes would differ if we had them. Yet they are very closely linked.

If I see a range of constructions that follow the same basic structure (because it is the most efficient way to build them and engineering principles remain the same) and these buildings all have the same architect, and construction company.....in what way are these structures "linked"? Could it be that having the same designer and builder makes them all very similar because the materials are much the same in each building but simply used in a different presentation? I see creation in much the same way. All have the same basic building materials and structurally a basic framework that is the most efficient for each application. Seeing similarity does not make me immediately just to your conclusion.

A slow process of mindless undirected evolution is illogical to us because we all know that useful design requires a designer. Design requires planning...planning requires intelligence. Complex design requires imagination and intelligence to devise the individual components that make up something like the computer I am using. Each interactive part had to be individually designed and created.....but if they were not intelligently assembled in the correct manner....would I have a working computer? And even if I had all the components in the right place.....what if there was no power source?

And then, in order to communicate with the rest of the world, we need an intricate internet system...again an independently designed component, designed by very intelligent people.....but, would that computer be of use to anyone without its programs? Would we have programs without someone to design them? Do you catch my drift? This is not rocket science surely? Its just logic.

That's not hiding the truth to the discerning critical thinker.

If you don't believe that your perceptions have been carefully managed for decades, then how do you think anyone got away with the kind of corruption that is only now beginning to surface and gaining public attention? The big boys have known about these things for decades, but the gullible public was led along because these guys were laughing at our naivety, all the way to their crooked banks....all with the backing of their political allies who of course were backed by the churches.

No. I'm an atheist and secular humanist.

Whatever the heck that means....? People seem fond of labels that make them sound more important or intelligent than they really are.

We expect that for all forms of therapy including pharmacotherapy, physical therapy, psychotherapy, radiation therapy, balneotherapy.

Shouldn't we expect that at this juncture in history, when science claims to know so much......that we would have a cure for cancer and heart disease...two of the biggest killers next to war and prescription drugs. Is there a reason why treatments for cancer particularly, (which are largely unsuccessful,) leave a terminally ill person to die the most horrific of all deaths, is still virtually the same for the last decade or more? It is nothing short of barbaric. Yet, there are other treatments that have seen successful outcomes because when doctors told these people to go home and die.....they didn't give up. They tried the alternatives with more success than the orthodox medical profession could even dream of.

Stem cell therapy is also on the verge of exploding! Imagine a therapy that is painless and cheap, replacing endless pain killing opioid drugs and expensive surgeries?
Why have we not seen much movement on these therapies before now? I will leave that to your imagination.

If there is a point or two that you'd like to make that you think is supported by the video, please make the point and we can proceed from there. I can't debate a video.

If you watch the video, you will see the story from then to now.....every portion of the commercial world has been corrupted by greedy men who pretended to be heroes. The well known names that people came to respect, but who are now seen for what they really were. Nothing more than the engineers of perception management, controlling the way people think and behave, and all the while profiting from public ignorance fed by their propaganda.

 

[Deeje]

What's your obsession with drugs?

Perhaps you are asking the wrong person that question.....

Somehow, that's the whole of medicine to you. Medicine combines multiple therapeutic modalities, including surgical therapy, radiotherapy, physical therapy, psychotherapy, nutritional therapy, stem cell therapy, transfusional therapy, immunotherapy including vaccines, and more.

And despite all those "therapies"....how many of us enjoy good health today without the "need" for drugs? Mental health issues are now more prevalent than ever....drugs have a lot to do with this problem. Psych units are overburdened and staff at risk from those who are damaged by mind altering substances, turning violent.

What lack of progress? I recently outlined much of the progress I saw during my tenure. And progress is not limited to cure. Advances in the mitigation of disease have been impressive as I indicated in my list of areas that I saw the most improvement in.

Advances mostly involving the use of ongoing drug treatments, which so often have such adverse side effects that people are prescribed more drugs to cope with them.....its a joke. Is mitigation all that can be hoped for? Why not cures? Why just make treating symptoms the whole box and dice? Isn't that about making sure that your business plan is successful?

One clinician lamented the changes he has seen in his medical career.....

"What has led to such changes? A new factor is affecting health care in ways that would never have been anticipated: medicine has become a business. This has occurred because of hefty drug costs, decreasing reimbursements from insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid, increasing regulatory burdens, the loss of cross-subsidization to cover the uninsured, and the need to treat a larger number and proportion of uninsured patients requiring more specialized and costly services. This fiscal aspect has so permeated medical practice and patient care that, to younger physicians, it goes unnoticed. In the real world of medicine, speed and efficiency using modern technology are the priorities, because the cost of health care and the very salaries of the health care personnel depend on it.

The effects are profound. Physicians are now “providers,” guided by case managers who decide on the length of “client” hospital stays, and professionals in business suits, not white coats, determine health care policy. Responsibility for patient care is now diffused among multiple providers with no single person willing or able to assume final responsibility for the patient. As a result, when decisions are made, the patient becomes confused and feels caught in the middle. It is no wonder that malpractice litigations and the use of alternative medicine have grown so dramatically."

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(04)00303-8/fulltext

When medicine became a business, patient care went out the window.

Were you aware that rheumatoid arthritis, for which there was almost nothing available to prevent deformation of the hands. Allowing one's patient to become progressively more deformed over time, once unavoidable, is today considered malpractice in patients never tried on disease modifying anti-rheumatic drugs (DMARDs).

Auto-immune disorders (like rheumatoid arthritis) of many different sorts are surfacing today with the medical profession scratching their heads about what causes them and with no idea how to treat them....except with drugs. These often cause more problems than they solve, introducing synthetic chemicals into an already struggling body.

There are very basic causes of ill health that are associated with the diets of many western countries. The emphasis is not on the nutritional value of food but on shelf life. To ensure that food stays "fresher" longer, (to increase profits and avoid waste) they have to remove every living organism in that food. Living food, packed with fiber is what humans are designed to eat. Sufficient enzymes and good gut bacteria are essential for good digestion. The food bought in the average supermarket is basically dead.

Even fruits and vegetables are stored for long periods in cold storage, diminishing vitamin content. Vital mineral content is missing because the agricultural methods of mass production deplete the soil of minerals which are then enriched with artificial fertilizers and contaminated with poisonous pesticides. If ever there was a system designed to rob its population of good health...its the food industry. Add fast food and you can sign more death certificates.

I just lost a friend to prostatic carcinoma. When we met four years ago, he had a sky high PSA of over 300 (normal is well below 10). In my day, that corresponded to a prognosis of a few months to a year. My friend lasted much longer than that. I wasn't aware of the strides made in that area since my retirement

May I ask what field you retired from?

I too have a friend treated for prostate cancer. His was in the early stages (fortunately) and he has no interest in natural medicines so he went down the orthodox route.
He has erectile dysfunction and incontinence as a result of the surgery. He is alive, but his quality of life is severely diminished.

I wish he'd had the option of trying whole plant cannabis (not the synthesized stuff being produced in labs that is useless) then he may have been able to defeat the disease and still have a good quality of life. But no one knows, because of the demonization of a harmless plant that may reduce pharmaceutical company revenues by a large margin. Watch them now make their expensive synthetic fake version and then claim that its useless.

You're simply wrong about medicine. But that's probably because you get your information from the wrong sources.

Perhaps it is you getting the same propaganda that has been around for decades. Time to wake up I think. Doctors and nurses get their information from the wrong sources I believe....a system designed to make it appear as if they are doing "all they can", when not much is being accomplished in reality. All those medical "breakthroughs" that we see on the news, that will be available in ten years....never materialize. No one seems to notice.

No, preventative medicine is only relevant where it can be effective. People who eat well, maintain a healthy weight, exercise regularly, and avoid other known health risks still get sick, and need curative therapy where possible, and mitigative or palliative therapy if nothing better is available

It is true that there are genetic factors in disease, but even in the area of gene therapy, a lot is being mooted but not much is really happening.

It is always good to prevent ill health, but we live in a system that is deliberately designed to make us sick. What medicine can "cure" would fit into a thimble compared to what they "treat" with expensive medication.

Yes it is. You apparently also don't know what diabetes (mellitus) is, either.

I have diabetes in my family.....I know about type one....more than I want to. Type two is a different story. My brother-in-law has type two....he is a 'junkfoodaholic' and always has been. I have friends who also have type two, they are obese and love their junk food as well. People who eat a healthy diet don't usually get type two diabetes. There is nothing to exhaust their pancreas so it doesn't shut down.

Calling it "Type 2 Diabetes" somehow makes it sound like you have a disease that you can't help......that is not true. It can be reversed and cured by diet alone. I have read the testimonies of many people who have accomplished it. Why doesn't the medical profession tell people that? No drugs huh?

No, it is not. That will be sufficient in some, but others will remain hyperglycemic and require pharmacotherapy to achieve euglycemia.

That is not what I have found in my own research. I am hypoglycemic and can control my sugar levels well with diet alone.
Hyperglycemia can be the result of stress affecting hormones. If it is an ongoing problem, (cause unknown) it is treated the same as type one diabetes.
I believe that diet is implicated in the majority of type two cases however.

Nope. Physicians choose their patients' diets by specifying total calories, relative assignment of calorie intake to protein, carbohydrate, and lipid, sodium restriction where relevant, vitamin requirements, and the like. Typically, a physician writes and order for something like a 1200 calorie diet with 4000 mg. of sodium a day ("no added salt"), and the dietician selects the menu.

The medical profession is a poor source of nutritional information. Its not just about calories and salt.

The infamous "low fat" craze that swept the world resulted in more obesity than ever before....and in the sale of "low fat" products. The medical profession were warning people about the dangers of fat. Butter and healthy saturated oils (like coconut oil) were seen to be the culprits in heart disease....so margarine and polyunsaturated fats were touted as beneficial to health.....nothing could have been further from the truth.

We need healthy fats in our diet to regulate our metabolism. Sugar was much more of a problem which was added in copious quantities to low fat foods to make them more palatable. There is no one more gullible than Mr and Mrs General Public. Funny thing is...they never seem to wake up.

That's called medicine, even when performed by a non-physician.

Yes the right kind of medicine...working with the body with natural remedies....not assaulting it with artificial chemicals that make it reject what you are putting into it. What do you think side effects are?

Even more difficult to treat is asymptomatic reflux. You're fortunate to know when your lower esophagus is bathing in acid. Not everybody can feel reflux. Those that can't are at risk for chronic esophagitis, Barret's esophagus, and a risk of esophageal carcinoma before they are even aware that there is a problem.

Again, if you eat a healthy diet, rich in fiber and whole foods, (organically grown,) you are less prone to any digestive problems. Good gut flora is essential as well as digestive enzymes if they are lacking due to a poor diet.

What would your naturopath's plan be in such a case? Whatever it is, I hope it includes continuous gastric acid suppression and periodic upper endoscopy with biopsy of suspicious appearing lesions

I have a natural therapist who can diagnose any of those issues noninvasively. She has been spot on in her diagnoses over the ten years I have been going to her. Iridology is an amazing thing though not her only diagnostic tool. The eyes tell all. Her natural remedies have been used by my family with great success ever since.

As a teenager, my daughter had bouts where she was violently sick. Doctors could not find the cause of the problem. Taking her to a natural therapist traced the problem to an unhappy gall bladder and she was given herbal treatment, she has not had another attack since.

In my own experience, the medical profession is needlessly hamstrung by the system that trains them. What they would consider "quackery" has worked for us in ways that the orthodox system never could.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I said this regarding rating posts as funny, in a derogatory sense:

I think the RF administration here, had a problem with it. Am I wrong?

Your response:

No idea.

I guess that means you didn't know? OK, I can understand that.

But then, there's this dialogue.....

Technically he is right. It is against the TOS to abuse the smilies that way. One can report people for doing that.

Now your response to this?....

Sure, I can see that.

Really? So what you're saying is, you'll accept facts from someone you share beliefs in common, but if those same non-contentious facts are presented by someone you disagree with, you won't accept or acknowledge them.

That's making it personal; and that is why I don't respond to all your posts. It will accomplish nothing.

To answer one of your questions....the peaks of the Himalayas contain dolomitic limestone, and other minerals.
How does that deny the Genesis global flood?

 

[oldbadger]

No embarrassment. There is no assumption that such a smooth clear line will ever be elucidated. It's unimportant to the theory that some forms may never be discovered. The theory merely posits that such creatures once existed, not that they all fossilized and that those fossils will be found any time soon or ever.

Hello....
Well, you know, by any kind of definition a theory is and assumption, and therefore a kind of faith, I guess. You possibly believe in a statement made by another member, thus:-
.................... the fossil record supporting evolutionary common descent, .......


But so far it is incomplete, and therefore a bunch of scientists who support external intervention by a higher intelligence has not been junked. In any event, all life possibly came from delivery via external bodies which could match a metaphorical Genesis. It seems to me, having read some of @Hockeycowboy 's posts that some JWs do perceive early Genesis as metaphor.

 

[oldbadger]

I only had three points.

You didn't address any of them.





Of course I'm a believer. There's nothing wrong with believing. I believe many things.

I believe you failed to address the three questions I asked about your post. That's a belief founded on specific knowledge of the immediate past.

I believe you will not answer any of those three questions. That's a belief founded on general knowledge of the past - the knowledge that you duck and dodge and will probably continue to do so.

The reason why I don't bother with you is because you don't acknowledge the simple and clear reports that I put before you. Instead you get hung up arguing about what you said about newspapers or some other drivvle, rather than moving the discussion forward.

In other words, exchanging posts with you is a waste of my time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hello....
Well, you know, by any kind of definition a theory is and assumption, and therefore a kind of faith, I guess. You possibly believe in a statement made by another member, thus:-
.................... the fossil record supporting evolutionary common descent, .......


But so far it is incomplete, and therefore a bunch of scientists who support external intervention by a higher intelligence has not been junked. In any event, all life possibly came from delivery via external bodies which could match a metaphorical Genesis. It seems to me, having read some of @Hockeycowboy 's posts that some JWs do perceive early Genesis as metaphor.

Wrong, a theory is not an assumption. At least not a scientific theory. It is a concept that has been tested and confirmed many times. You are using an improper definition of theory. A scientific theory is totally different from any theory that you might come up with. This post shows total ignorance of what the scientific method is and how work is done in the sciences.