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Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

ecco

Veteran Member
It really doesn't matter what is written in your publications. The truth is that you disbelieve evolution because it conflicts with your religious beliefs. PERIOD.

No that's actually wrong. I never did find substantial reasons for believing complex information originates from mindless forces, way before I became a member of any religion.

Judging by your wording, I have every reason to think you are being very disingenuous. A non-religious person would never think in terms of information originating from mindless forces.

As a test, I went to Google and entered "complex information originates from mindless forces" without the quotes. The very first thing that comes up is...

This is a link to a JW Watchtower article that contains the term 'mindless process' six times.

You are so indoctrinated you can't even remember the origins of your thoughts.






Also you completely ignored...
Besides, we know that JW lies to its believers just as it lies to everyone else. The following JW website asserts that science claims "Evolution is a proven fact."
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/teen-questions/should-i-believe-in-evolution/
CLAIM: Evolution is a proven fact.​
That's a lie on multiple levels.

Why does JW lie? Why do you accept the lies of JW?

Here is another example of the deceitfulness of JW from the same site:
Despite decades of research, scientists have yet to come up with an explanation for evolution that they can all agree on.​
There are differences of opinion in all branches of human endeavor.

All cars were rear wheel drive. Now, most are front wheel drive. If we go by JW's view, cars cannot be real.

By that same viewpoint, since JW's were so often wrong about the End Of Times, JW must be as false as evolution. To believe otherwise is to be a hypocrite.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Wrong, a theory is not an assumption. At least not a scientific theory. It is a concept that has been tested and confirmed many times. You are using an improper definition of theory. A scientific theory is totally different from any theory that you might come up with. This post shows total ignorance of what the scientific method is and how work is done in the sciences.
Ha..... A theory is a concept..... You wrote it.

And please do stop telling us what we don't know. I may have qualified in.more sciences than you, who has never been able to tell about all you scientific work.

Can't trust that
.......

You believe in a guess about the bridge between evolution and mankind. That's a faith.
No science there......
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ha..... A theory is a concept..... You wrote it.

And please do stop telling us what we don't know. I may have qualified in.more sciences than you, who has never been able to tell about all you scientific work.

Can't trust that
.......

You believe in a guess about the bridge between evolution and mankind. That's a faith.
No science there......
It is dishonest to only mention part of a quote. It is a concept that has been tested and confirmed. And no, when it comes to the sciences you demonstrate that you have very little education in them. Would you like to go over the basics?

And there is no "faith". We can test our relatedness to other apes in several ways. You are the one with empty faith. You also have to keep yourself ignorant. It is the only way that you can maintain your faith and keep up a semblance of honesty. Creationists have a fear of learning since they seem to know that if they do learn that they will lose their faith. Unlike you I was not afraid to learn.

So what do you want to start with, the scientific method or the concept of evidence?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is dishonest to only mention part of a quote. It is a concept that has been tested and confirmed. And no, when it comes to the sciences you demonstrate that you have very little education in them. Would you like to go over the basics?

And there is no "faith". We can test our relatedness to other apes in several ways. You are the one with empty faith. You also have to keep yourself ignorant. It is the only way that you can maintain your faith and keep up a semblance of honesty. Creationists have a fear of learning since they seem to know that if they do learn that they will lose their faith. Unlike you I was not afraid to learn.

So what do you want to start with, the scientific method or the concept of evidence?
Let's start with what you do for a living.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let's start with what you do for a living.

No, lets keep this on topic. The problem is that you do not even appear to have a high school level of understanding of the sciences. I may not be working in the sciences now, but I have in the past. I am offering to help you to learn. If I can't support my claims it will soon become apparent. You keep making posts that tell us how little you know. Such as your recent error in regards to calling a theory an "assumption". Do you even know what an assumption is? Not even a hypothesis qualifies as an assumption.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It is against the TOS to abuse the smilies that way.

There is an old saying, "smiling faces tell lies". This refers to the fact that some people smile when they are uncomfortable - in person or online.

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-I-stop-smiling-at-the-wrong-time
Why can't I stop smiling at the wrong time?
This behavior stems from insecurity. When you're nervous or anxious, smiling is an instinctive way to tell higher-social-status individuals that you aren't a threat to them.


It's akin to nervous laughter...

Nervous laughter is laughter evoked from an audience's expression of embarrassment, alarm, discomfort or confusion, rather than amusement.


Smilies reveal a lot about the people who use them too often.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco previously said:
  1. Did you read the article?
  2. What is your understanding of the gist of the article?
  3. What was your objective in posting a link to it?


The reason why I don't bother with you is because you don't acknowledge the simple and clear reports that I put before you. Instead you get hung up arguing about what you said about newspapers or some other drivvle, rather than moving the discussion forward.

In other words, exchanging posts with you is a waste of my time. :shrug:

Not much of what you just posted is true. I haven't mentioned the Daily Mail referral for several days.

I did read the article you presented. I did comment on it. I pointed out that it did not support your argument. I showed where it did not support your argument.

Since it didn't support your argument, I wondered if you had read anything beyond the headline and why you would bother posting it. So I asked...
  1. Did you read the article?
  2. What is your understanding of the gist of the article?
  3. What was your objective in posting a link to it?
Given your continued unwillingness to respond, it's clear that you have no understanding of the article because you never read beyond the headline. That's a mistake many people like you make. You see a headline that you think supports your viewpoint and you post a link. More often than not, it's not even something you yourself find, it's something linked from a Creo website.

Nevertheless, you post it without actually reading it and understanding it. Sometimes, you get away with it. But when you're called out on it, you're only option is to duck and run and make some silly excuse like "exchanging posts with you is a waste of my time".

The world is watching and taking notes.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
oldbadger,
Must you always Duck and Dodge?
You and I both know why.

One must keep oneself ignorant of the sciences far below a professional level to maintain a belief in creationism without knowingly lying. I am fairly sure that he does not want to lie so he has to find some excuse for not learning.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I freely acknowledge my belief system.....You don't think you have one

I've told you repeatedly what my ideology is called, and you have referred to it several times since, usually in a derogatory or dismissive sense.

Learning to live without God is like learning to live without sight or without hearing or limbs

Have you ever done it - learned to live without faith or religion? I have. It's quite liberating and enabling. I have recently described the benefits derived from tunneling out of that mindset.

From what you post, it seems as if you can ignore the plight of others because you don't have to deal with those problems in your life

You call being happy and grateful ignoring the plight of others. How does that make sense? I hope for peace, happiness, freedom from want, and the like for everybody, and do what I can locally to make lives better. You do no more than that, and perhaps less.

We have a powerful champion......who do you have?

No, you don't have a powerful champion. You simply hope that such a creature exists and cares about you.

My champion is reason applied to evidence.

What is your hope? Is it any more well founded than mine? Be honest.

I just told you my hope for the world. My hope for myself is to continue to enjoy as many years as possible in the life I have now.

Unless you hadn't noticed, things are not getting better.

Actually, I noticed the opposite. You are apparently unable to see the good man has accomplished. All you see are the problems. Life has never been as good for as many as it is now.

So those who profit from the financial benefits of unbridled greed, with no responsibility taken for the damage done to humanity, are AOK with you?

Why would you say that? I've never indicated anything of the sort. It is you who keeps attributing my happiness to indifference and projecting mental states to me that are of your own creation. Actually, at present, I'm looking forward to an entire "witch hunt" full of such people getting their comeuppance.

Or perhaps its people like you who think only of themselves. It certainly appears that way.

This is more of the propaganda that you have swallowed uncritically, which is how you get your information, and why you think you know my motivations better than I do. If you want to learn the truth about the world, you need to look up from your Watchtower and get your information directly from the world. You won't listen to me when I tell you what I think and how I feel because its not what's in your religious publications.

Could it be that having the same designer and builder makes them all very similar

That's what the theory of evolution predicts. The tree of life has a single source, a common ancestor subjected to an iterative process of reproduction with variation and natural selection over geological time, whose many descendants share common features.

Design requires planning...planning requires intelligence.

If that's the case, you are premature calling the universe's patterns and its regular features "designs." This is linguistic sleight-of-hand on your part. You're trying to sneak an intelligent designer by calling the patterns in nature design, and insisting that such patterns are intelligently devised because you chose to call them designs and to insist that this always indicates intelligence. It doesn't.

People seem fond of labels that make them sound more important or intelligent than they really are.

I called myself an atheist and a secular humanist, and this is your reply? What can we glean from it? Clearly, you are contemptuous of intelligence.

And what are your credentials for evaluating and rating intelligence? Scripture that calls people like me fools? Your book doesn't seem to understand what wisdom is, and Christianity has a poor track record in its relationship with intelligence, which it discourages. The first sin was seeking knowledge through an apple from a tree:
  • "They were allowed to stay there on one condition, and that is that they didn't eat of the tree of knowledge. That has been the condition of the Christian church from then until now. They haven't eaten as yet, as a rule they do not." - Clarence Darrow
  • Ecclesiastes 1:18 - "For in much wisdom is much vexation and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow
  • "Since God has spoken to us it is no longer necessary for us to think." - St Augustine of Hippo
  • [A]ll too often, our young people have met with spiritual disaster, especially after leaving home and living on a university campus. So parents and children, you need to have a goal and you need to have a plan. If you’re missing either one, Satan will provide it for you. Young people, ask yourself: Why am I considering additional education? Is it because I’m pursuing a specific skill or trade to support my service to Jehovah? Or have I been pressured by the system into believing that higher education will somehow make me a more respected person or lead me to a better life?" - Tony Morris of the Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body, from "The Jehovah's Witnesses Told Them Not to Get a College Degree; Now, They're Struggling" The Jehovah’s Witnesses Told Them Not to Get a College Degree; Now, They’re Struggling
This is not a tradition that I would turn to for advice on anything, much less advice on intelligence or wisdom.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Shouldn't we expect that at this juncture in history, when science claims to know so much......that we would have a cure for cancer and heart disease

No. The problems medicine faces that can be solved will be solved when the necessary progress has been made. It is a slow process as is all of scientific discovery.

Where does science claim to "know so much"? Science claims that the force of gravity falls off with distance according to the inverse square law, that life evolved over deep time naturalistically, and the like. It's credentials are its stunning success. You seem to resent that.

Is there a reason why treatments for cancer particularly, (which are largely unsuccessful,) leave a terminally ill person to die the most horrific of all deaths, is still virtually the same for the last decade or more?

You are wrong again. Treatment for cancers continued to progress through the last decade, which is about as long as I've been retired from medicine. I recently described the case of a man who died this year who was diagnosed with widely disseminated metastatic prostate carcinoma, the prognosis for which in my day was counted in months, but has been extended to years now - the years I knew him. Those extra years were a gift of modern medicine, a field you also disdain and dismiss.

Can you see nothing good about the world or mankind? Do you miss all progress and achievements?

Incidentally, with hospice and palliative care, terminally ill patients do not need to die horrific deaths. Of course, they or someone making decisions for them must seek this help, which would be unlikely for somebody taught the things that you have been taught. More is the pity if they suffer needlessly because of such misinformation.

Stem cell therapy is also on the verge of exploding! Imagine a therapy that is painless and cheap, replacing endless pain killing opioid drugs and expensive surgeries?

Yeah, it's called medical therapy, and that knowledge comes from medical researchers, not holy books or religious denominations.

And despite all those "therapies"....how many of us enjoy good health today without the "need" for drugs?

I don't know. How many have good health because of pharmaceuticals?

Is mitigation all that can be hoped for? Why not cures?

Many medical conditions have no cure,that is, they cannot be removed from the body. They may arise from the DNA, for example, which cannot be removed or modified. The best one can do in such cases is to neutralize the effect of the condition - perhaps return the blood pressure, blood glucose, or cholesterol to normal levels with continuous pharmacotherapy.

Why just make treating symptoms the whole box and dice?

You've already been told that this is a wrong idea that you hold. Medicine treats more than symptoms.

Auto-immune disorders (like rheumatoid arthritis) of many different sorts are surfacing today with the medical profession scratching their heads about what causes them and with no idea how to treat them....except with drugs.

Those drugs have been game changing in the case of rheumatoid arthritis, and represent an impressive advance. You disdaining something that is a great achievement because of your faith-based belief that medicine is corrupt, ineffective, and more dangerous than the conditions it treats.

These often cause more problems than they solve, introducing synthetic chemicals into an already struggling body.

They more often help more problems than they create. Such chemicals help the body in its struggle. Antibiotics are a good example. Many infections that were uniformly lethal in the past can be resolved with the proper synthetic chemicals assisting a struggling body.

It's remarkable how your faith-based confirmation biases determine what you can and cannot see. You're missing so much.

May I ask what field you retired from?

Medicine. More specifically, I am board certified in both internal medicine and hospice / palliative care

Doctors and nurses get their information from the wrong sources I believe

I believe the opposite. Nobody is having more success treating illness than the medical profession - not chiropractors, naturopaths, faith healers, homeopaths, or any other alternative to scientific medicine. Which of these if any would you see if you developed a high fever, a bloody productive cough, chest pain, and shortness of breath due to pneumonia? If it's not the physician, then it is you that is getting information from bad sources.

Calling it "Type 2 Diabetes" somehow makes it sound like you have a disease that you can't help

What part of that name makes the condition seem untreatable to your lay perspective? Is it the "Type 2" part, or the word "diabetes"? And why does it mean that to you?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No, lets keep this on topic.
Ha ha! What a cop out!
All I see is pretension and posturing.

The problem is that you do not even appear to have a high school level of understanding of the sciences. I may not be working in the sciences now, but I have in the past.
I passed my Ordinary Level GCE Sciences, and went on to pass the entrance examinations to the Institute of Wood Science.
I studied dendo-chronology as an advanced subject and was invited to join a team of technicians at Greenwich Maritime Museum, a position I could not accept because the salary was much lower than commercial salaries and I had a mortgage to pay off.
Later on, in the career that would make me what I am, over a period of several years' research and development I built up a technique for the profiling of retail and various commercial thieves, known as 'Interest Selection' a technique that led me on to making 28 training films on the subject for large UK retailers and their security contractors.

I am offering to help you to learn. If I can't support my claims it will soon become apparent. You keep making posts that tell us how little you know. Such as your recent error in regards to calling a theory an "assumption". Do you even know what an assumption is? Not even a hypothesis qualifies as an assumption.
You haven't got anything Subduction....... I think that you are what I call an academic-snob, throwing your 'ignorance bricks' around like confetti, but with nothing there......... nothing.

But if you come clean and tell us what you have done, and what you are doing., that I can respect. I don't care if you earn your living in a path lab or as a gardener, so long as you are genuine.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Really? So what you're saying is, you'll accept facts from someone you share beliefs in common, but if those same non-contentious facts are presented by someone you disagree with, you won't accept or acknowledge them.
*sigh*

You stated that rating posts as funny was against the rules and asked me if you were wrong. I answered honestly and said I had no idea....because I didn't know.

Then SZ stated it was against the rules and I responded that I could see how it might be. Then I went and looked and didn't see anything in the rules one way or the other about rating posts as funny. So I ended up disagreeing with him too!

So the documented reality is the opposite of what you're trying to portray.

That's making it personal; and that is why I don't respond to all your posts. It will accomplish nothing.
What a lame excuse. What was personal when I asked you to describe the conditions of various mountain ranges and show how the Biblical flood best explains them? What was personal when I asked you what the orientation of the Himalayan strata is? What was personal when I asked you what statement I should rethink after you posted the Raup quote mine?

I'll answer for you.....nothing. You habitually run away when confronted with questions and data that you have no response to, and this whole "personal" thing is just a transparent excuse.

To answer one of your questions....the peaks of the Himalayas contain dolomitic limestone, and other minerals.
How does that deny the Genesis global flood?
Really? When asked to describe the geologic conditions of the Himalayas and show how the Biblical flood better explains them, this is the best answer you have? Wow. o_O
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I may have qualified in.more sciences than you,
Kinda hard to believe coming from someone who doesn't even know what "theory" means in science.

You believe in a guess about the bridge between evolution and mankind. That's a faith.
No science there......
So what do you think all those scientists have been doing for over a century? Twiddling their thumbs and then writing stories they just made up in their heads?

You remind me of the Asimov quote, "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night"
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Kinda hard to believe coming from someone who doesn't even know what "theory" means in science.
The gap in evolution between all else and mankind isn't a theory. It's a guess.
Fill the gap and finish the job, or go back to sleep Jose. :)

So what do you think all those scientists have been doing for over a century? Twiddling their thumbs and then writing stories they just made up in their heads?
They've been trying to bridge the gap........... keep on trying. When the gap is bridged I hope to be alive to read about it.

You remind me of the Asimov quote, "Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night"
Like a drink, do you?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The gap in evolution between all else and mankind isn't a theory. It's a guess.
Sorry, but things aren't so just because you say they are. I can post "the moon is made of cheese" and it would have as much validity as what you said above.

They've been trying to bridge the gap........... keep on trying. When the gap is bridged I hope to be alive to read about it.
I'd ask what "gap" you're referring to, but I have a feeling you'll duck and dodge that question like you've done with so many others.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
@Hockeycowboy and @Deeje .......how is it going for you?

You know, I've always believed in a metaphorical creation description from Genesis, but evolution hasn't reached all the way to mankind yet, and some members writing posts here, the self appointed scientists who call out the insults about our education, intellect and even mental abilities, aren't actually scientists at all.

Hockey, I read something from you that you accept some part of evolution. Deeje, I get the impression that you support Genesis to the word? This is supposed to be a discussion thread, so can we make it one? Please post to me about what you believe, and I'll post to you what I think might be possible, and if we share our thoughts together then this thread will be a discussion...... but I don't think you'll get one otherwise.

I'm talking with you from now on here, together with any polite posts from polite members.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ha ha! What a cop out!
All I see is pretension and posturing.

No, it is not. Your prying has nothing to do with the topic. You could have asked what education I have had in the topic, that would have been a valid question.

I passed my Ordinary Level GCE Sciences, and went on to pass the entrance examinations to the Institute of Wood Science.
I studied dendo-chronology as an advanced subject and was invited to join a team of technicians at Greenwich Maritime Museum, a position I could not accept because the salary was much lower than commercial salaries and I had a mortgage to pay off.
Later on, in the career that would make me what I am, over a period of several years' research and development I built up a technique for the profiling of retail and various commercial thieves, known as 'Interest Selection' a technique that led me on to making 28 training films on the subject for large UK retailers and their security contractors.

So basically a high school level.if science education. With some studies in a real science. It appears that you forgot quite a bit of what you have studied since you do not know what a theory is. You calling a theory an assumption would be as wrong as me claiming that you were guessing when it came to thieves.

We're you guessing?


You haven't got anything Subduction....... I think that you are what I call an academic-snob, throwing your 'ignorance bricks' around like confetti, but with nothing there......... nothing.

Now you are openly lying about me. You could have had a discussion and learned something, instead you have decided to remain ignorant. Please note I offered to go over what you deem to have such a hard time understanding and instead you have to find excuses not to learn. That is the typical move of creationists too afraid to learn.

But if you come clean and tell us what you have done, and what you are doing., that I can respect. I don't care if you earn your living in a path lab or as a gardener, so long as you are genuine.

There is as I said no need. You are the one that has been less than honest here. You should have asked what my education level was. You are the one that has brought a rubber knife to a fun fight.

I am still willing to go over the basics with you so that you will not repeat the errors that you make that tell us that you never understood even the basics of science.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sorry, but things aren't so just because you say they are. I can post "the moon is made of cheese" and it would have as much validity as what you said above.{/QUOTE]
Scientists don't make stupid analogies. If you can show that evolution is discovered all the way to mankind then show it! Reports from the media suggest it is still a gap!

I'd ask what "gap" you're referring to, but I have a feeling you'll duck and dodge that question like you've done with so many others.
You have been told about the gap, anybody interested knows about the gap.
Look...... unless you can admit that there is not as yet a clear connect to mankind then your just blustering in ignorance yourself.

Tell you what, Jose......... come to that issue or post to somebody else. I'm only discussing from now on...... if you wanna make it so personal then I'll see you later..... :p
 
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