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Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

nPeace

Veteran Member
Wow! Endless dishonesty.

Once again, can you be honest? This is not a proper way to debate.
Dishonest?

Where does life come from? Despite years of research, scientists still rack their brains over this most existential question. If the universe did begin with a rapid expansion, per the Big Bang theory, then life as we know it sprung from nonliving matter. How this process, known as abiogenesis, could have occurred is a source of much scientific debate.

Spontaneous generation
The first experimental evidence against spontaneous generation came in 1668 when Francesco Redi showed that no maggots appeared in meat when flies were prevented from laying eggs. It was gradually shown that, at least in the case of all the higher and readily visible organisms, the previous sentiment regarding spontaneous generation was false. The alternative seemed to be biogenesis: that every living thing came from a pre-existing living thing (omne vivum ex ovo, Latin for "every living thing from an egg").

In 1768, Lazzaro Spallanzani demonstrated that microbes were present in the air, and could be killed by boiling. In 1861, Louis Pasteur performed a series of experiments that demonstrated that organisms such as bacteria and fungi do not spontaneously appear in sterile, nutrient-rich media, but could only appear by invasion from without.

The belief that self-ordering by spontaneous generation was impossible begged for an alternative. By the middle of the 19th century, the theory of biogenesis had accumulated so much evidential support, due to the work of Pasteur and others, that the alternative theory of spontaneous generation had been effectively disproven. John Desmond Bernal, a pioneer in X-ray crystallography, suggested that earlier theories such as spontaneous generation were based upon an explanation that life was continuously created as a result of chance events.
..........
Louis Pasteur and Charles Darwin

Louis Pasteur remarked, about a finding of his in 1864 which he considered definitive, "Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow struck by this simple experiment."
..........
In a letter to Joseph Dalton Hooker
on 1 February 1871, Darwin discussed the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity, &c., present, that a proteine compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes." He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed." He had written to Hooker in 1863 stating that, "It is mere rubbish, thinking at present of the origin of life; one might as well think of the origin of matter." In On the Origin of Species, he had referred to life having been "created", by which he "really meant 'appeared' by some wholly unknown process", but had soon regretted using the Old Testament term "creation".

"Primordial soup" hypothesis

Oparin proposed that the "spontaneous generation of life" that had been attacked by Louis Pasteur did in fact occur once, but was now impossible because the conditions found on the early Earth had changed, and preexisting organisms would immediately consume any spontaneously generated organism. Oparin argued that a "primeval soup" of organic molecules could be created in an oxygenless atmosphere through the action of sunlight.
..........
One of the most important pieces of experimental support for the "soup" theory came in 1952. Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey performed an experiment that demonstrated how organic molecules could have spontaneously formed from inorganic precursors under conditions like those posited by the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis.

Current models

There is no single, generally accepted model for the origin of life. Scientists have proposed several plausible hypotheses, which share some common elements. While differing in the details, these hypotheses are based on the framework laid out by Alexander Oparin (in 1924) and by J. B. S. Haldane (in 1925), who postulated the molecular or chemical evolution theory of life. According to them, the first molecules constituting the earliest cells "were synthesized under natural conditions by a slow process of molecular evolution, and these molecules then organized into the first molecular system with properties with biological order".

So binding chemicals to chemicals, to form a bunch of chemicals equals life? Who or what brought the chemicals together?
Isn't that like mixing sand, water, and cement in a box, and coming back later, and proclaiming, "Look! A house." It formed by itself?

Who mixed the properties?
Perhaps we should stop the "flies" from getting into the jar.
Where would those chemicals be without the scientists - the flies?

Current approaches in evolution: from molecules to cells and organisms.
Though the model systems are diverse, the issues addressed are fundamental: the origin of evolutionary novelties, and the forces that drive them to fixation.

Many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in spontaneous generation as a philosophical necessity. It is a symptom of the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing - George Wald, "The Origin of Life," Scientific American, August 1954, p. 46

It seems you don't like to hear the truth, so you resort to calling people dishonest, but I think you are either looking in the wrong direction, or... wait! I should have asked, "You are not in your room looking at the mirror as you type, are you?
I certainty hope not, although I don't think you would be being cruel to yourself.

Can Life Arise from Non Life?
Like non living machines, living organisms must be engineered. That means planned, organized, coordinated, commanded and controlled. Living organisms are the most complicated objects in the universe so the requirement is mega-engineering, not the sub-idiot, headless, phantom, superstitious, engineering in the hallucinations of evolutionists.

Please, think about it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So it does refute your statements.
I'm not sure you realize that the article said, Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include:
Why do you think it says, "Some of the questions ....include"?
There are many more questions that would probably make the page longer than they want it to be.


Yes, the few "bones" they desperately put their assumptions on, are necessary to save the theory.
Could you imagine another 150 years without having transitional fossils? :anguished:


Although that didn't happen... in the minds of the evolutionists... it did.


The only thing that has "proved" the theory of evolution, is the wishful thinking of mostly atheist.
Evolution has not been proven, and DNA doesn't speak in it's favor. It's only the interpretations of scientists that speak.
Have you heard DNA say anything? If you did, you probably heard it say, "Intelligent design!", and you interpreted that to be, "I was not designed."

There is nothing that can "prove" evolution happened - In hindsight, there is... seeing it happen, just as we see our children grow. I'll be a million years by then.
They don't even know how the thing is supposed to work, or the mechanism that drives it.

I was listening to a panel consisting of some of your favorite people - heroes to you, and hundreds more...
These people are like gods to their fans. Do you deny that? Keep going.
It was interesting watching them actually. As usual, your friend Richard always gives me a good laugh.
Like at 11:02 - 11:42


A question was raised...
Someone said we have a deep understanding of cosmology, and if scientists could fully understand the origins of life; consciousness; etc... then ?
A Dawkins' question duh.
Dawkins: "No amount of proof..."

What?
! said to myself, 'These are scientist? Proof? Is there a name that defines a person that practices scientism?'
There really can't be any proof, can they?

The cosmological constant may not be constant, after all
Measurements suggest dark energy may fluctuate, throwing current models of the universe into doubt.

Reliance on Indirect Evidence Fuels Dark Matter Doubts
Pinning down the universe's missing mass remains one of cosmology's biggest challenges

Alternative Theories of Cosmology
Nowadays there are many models of cosmology trying to describe the mechanism of our universe as a whole. The most famous and popular model is the Big Bang cosmology, often called the Standard Model(SM) , according to which the universe was created through a gigantic explosion in 14 billion years ago. As the SM’s theoretical predictions are almost compatible with observational data, cosmologists has spent much of their time to improve and make it more precise. However, there are some who believe that the theory is wrong and a new theory should be used. They have developed different models and theories. But these theories have not become as popular as the SM. So they have too many problems which have not been discussed yet.

Doubts About Big Bang Cosmology
...every civilization known to anthropology has put together such meagre observations as it possesses, has interpreted them in the light of currently fashionable ideas, and then manufactured as plausible a cosmological story as it can to tell its students and its children. The trouble is that none of those cosmologies have stood the test of time. Have we any reason to be more confident in the Big Bang Cosmology (BBC) which is fashionable today?
........
(C)
Cosmology requires us to extrapolate what physics we know over huge ranges in space and time, where such extrapolations have rarely, if ever, worked in physics before. Take gravitation for instance. When we extrapolate the Inverse Square Law (dress it up how you will as G.R.) from the Solar System where it was established, out to galaxies and clusters of galaxies, it simply never works. We cover up this scandal by professing to believe in “Dark Matter” – for which independent evidence is lacking.

Cosmology is in crisis – but not for the reason you may think
Science is advancing rapidly. We are eradicating diseases, venturing further into space and discovering a growing zoo of subatomic particles. But cosmology – which is trying to understand the evolution of the entire universe using theories that work well to describe other systems – is struggling to answer many of its most fundamental questions.

We still have no idea what the vast majority of the universe is made of. We struggle to understand how the Big Bang could suddenly arise from nothing or where the energy for "inflation", a very short period of rapid growth in the early universe, came from. But despite these gaps in knowledge, it is actually human nature – our tendency to interpret data to fit our beliefs – that is the biggest threat to modern cosmology.

List of unsolved problems in physics

It is really amusing, how persons behave as though they are so brilliant, and the scientists that just relish in the glory, as though they are gods, and their worshipers who seem as though they want to just kiss the feet of these men.
I am reminded of Nimrod, described as a "mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah". Genesis 10:8-10

Just modern day Nimrods relishing in glory... short lived glory.

Even this video shows that this is pure scientism these guys are promoting.
Did Charles Darwin prove anything? No.
How did he prove that life came from nothing, or almost nothing? He didn't.

The bottom line...
No one can say they know for certain, the origin of life. I know. I know. Chemical evolution is not biological evolution.
Scientists are doubtful about their own theories - including the theory of evolution, for which they don't even know the mechanism that would allow it to work.
So all they have are a whole heap of suppositions - assumptions they wish were true, and from which they create fairytale stories, and teach them to the unwary, and gullible imo.
They cannot demonstrate any of these myths to be true, but they are happy to accept these, while alluding to Christian literature as myths.

On the other hand, there seems to be clear evidence that the Christian literature contains true accounts - there is evidence everywhere of a worldwide flood. There is evidence for intelligent design.
We know for example, that reason comes from a mind, plans are from a mind, design requires a designer.
All of this we see in all the systems in the universe.
This is so obvious that even these strong opposers of intelligent design admit it, in one breath, even though they deny it in another.

Lawrence Krauss probably didn't realize how he showed that in what he said. Take a listen, at 7:45
Life was driven by reason, he says. Say what?
The universe is alive, and has a mind.

As we know, the only way something can be guided by reason, is if there is intelligence involved.
So no matter how hard atheist fight to deny the truth, it always will come out. Poor guys.

The truth of this scripture is always resounding. It's like an echo, or reverberation that you just can't get to go away.
For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable. (Romans 1:18-20)
Suppressing it won't make it go away now would it? Be reasonable.

It seems to me that the JWs rejection of the evolution theory, is a sensible and reasonable one.
They appreciate truth - what can be shown to be true. The are not move from sound reason, by wishful thinking.
I mean, we have scientists promoting scientism as scientific fact. Imagine that!

Thankfully they likely make up the minority of scientists, because if 90% scientists were like them, science would be a total joke, and being a scientist would be an embarrassment. I think the 10% would quit, and find another field of employment.

We all know that there is no scientific fact that supports any amount of ideas that wishful thinkers could come up with.
Why would any sensible human being exchange the truth for a lie. That doesn't make any sense.
Since we are speaking about sense, I think it is fair to mention a fact about those under attack here..
Far from JWs receiving a misinformed indoctrination, they are well informed. They understand that evolution works in the mind of those who believe, not because they know it happened, but because they are perhaps relying on opinions leaning towards believe in it happening.

We appreciate science as is mentioned at 23:12 - 23:30 of the video. Do the research, but keep the scientism to self, and recognize others research. That is how we view science. As regards evolution being good science, that is a different story, imo.
Oh boy, another Gish Gallop:rolleyes:

If you want to learn you need to bring up your nonsense one claim at a time. I am not bothering with a mile long rant full of errors.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Some scientists are still open minded about the possibility of outside interference between the evolution links and mankind.
It's just a pity that none are here, on this thread, if at all on RF.

No serious ones that I know of. And please, just because a scientist believes nonsense does not make him "open minded". None of those supposed scientists have ever demonstrated scientific evidence for their beliefs. This is why going over the scientific method and scientific evidence is a good place to start. It is usually quite obvious that what those people are doing is not "science".

No.... guessing about Interest Selector values.... these mostly became flexible values although some became close to certainties..... no, even those had an estimated value, however strong they were.

Analogies are imperfect, but the aspirin is a possible example.
Aspirin's can kill some people, even in small doses. That produces a 'guess' however outside or imperceptible. A neighbour here would become very very ill if he took a single aspirin.

You are probably right. You studied the matter. You probably know what you are talking about. I don't. I could not judge. But in the same way scientists that have studied evolution can say that there is no doubt about our sharing a common ancestor with other apes. DNA evidence, the same sort of evidence that allows certain daytime talkshow hosts to claim "You ARE the father!" also allows us to see that we are related to other apes.

I would never compare any work that I ever did with other areas of search..... not so...
And a gap is a gap, by any other name.

Only in the fossil record. The fossil record is now secondary to DNA as far as evidence goes. Fossils are obvious to the layman since one can see the similarities. DNA, not so much, but the evidence is even stronger.

What I intend to do now is leave this thread for a time, and go to find out more about what the specialists say about their search and research in to the links with mankind from all else. Many researchers will probably be detached scientists, and obviously their views would impress me most.

What do you mean by "detached scientists"? Are you taking about scientists that do not do any science? Scientists constantly check each others work. The peer review process is only the beginning for new ideas. If a scientist is not willing to go through peer review you would make a fortune betting what they were doing was not science.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Faith is not necessary when there is supporting evidence, the proper interpretation of which is science.

That is an assumption.....right? Since evidence needs interpretation, you rely on the words of the interpreter, which relies in turn on inference, not proof.....true? Since there is no actual proof that the evidence has been interpreted correctly, acceptance has to be based on faith.

We have a great deal of evidence that man evolved from ancestral apes, enough to believe that this occurred with a high degree of confidence just this side of certainty.

No, you have some scientist's testimony that they "believe" that humans evolved from apes, based on what they have interpreted from the fossils they have found. Fossils do not speak.....they are given a voice by those who think they know what happened all those millions of years ago when no one was around to document anything except the Creator himself....and you don't believe him. It's OK though....he doesn't need you to believe in him.....he doesn't need those who don't need him. Simple.

I can't think of another possibility for the existence of humanity apart from intelligent design, for which there is insufficient evidence to justify belief.

Insufficient evidence...????

If you came across a cabin in the woods with solar electricity laid on, lighting, plumbing, air conditioning, carpeting, running water, and a fully stocked pantry....and a sign on the door that said "Welcome...make yourself at home".....would you immediately assume that no one built it and designed all those things that make living in it more comfortable? And would you not appreciate the generosity of such a person?
We are living in that cabin and you insist that no one made it....it just happened to pop up out of nowhere for no apparent reason, all by itself. No one to thank but some fictitious person called "Mother Nature". :confused:
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is an assumption.....right? Since evidence needs interpretation, you rely on the words of the interpreter, which relies in turn on inference, not proof.....true? Since there is no actual proof that the evidence has been interpreted correctly, acceptance has to be based on faith.

Except that using the scientific method has a history of success unmatched by any other method. By faith has one of the highest rates of failure.

No, you have some scientist's testimony that they "believe" that humans evolved from apes, based on what they have interpreted from the fossils they have found. Fossils do not speak.....they are given a voice by those who think they know what happened all those millions of years ago when no one was around to document anything except the Creator himself....and you don't believe him. It's OK though....he doesn't need you to believe in him.....he doesn't need those who don't need him. Simple.

Those beliefs are testable. They are falsifiable. That is what gives them far more power than your "just so stories".

Insufficient evidence...????

If you came across a cabin in the woods with solar electricity laid on, lighting, plumbing, air conditioning, carpeting, running water, and a fully stocked pantry....and a sign on the door that said "Welcome...make yourself at home".....would you immediately assume that no one built it and designed all those things that make living in it more comfortable? And would you not appreciate the generosity of such a person?
We are living in that cabin and you insist that no one made it....it just happened to pop up out of nowhere for no apparent reason, all by itself. No one to thank but some fictitious person called "Mother Nature". :confused:

Sorry, but since no one on your side can even define "design" this argument of yours if merely a dandelion head that disappears with a puff of wind. We don't live in such a world. We live in a world that given a chance will kill us.

Too bad all you have are empty claims. Learning what is and what is not evidence would make you a much better debater. The only problem is that you would quickly have to admit that you are wrong.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Find that exact phrase in our publications....where it's discussing evolution, and it's expressing the writers' view.....I'll give you $1,000.

Like you would really accept any definition I'd give, lol!

"Many species remain virtually unchanged for millions of years, then suddenly disappear to be replaced by a quite different, but related, form. Moreover, most major groups of animals appear abruptly in the fossil record, fully formed, and with no fossils yet discovered that form a transition from their parent group"

-- C.P. Hickman, L.S. Roberts, and F.M. Hickman, Integrated Principles of Zoology, p. 866 (Times Mirror/Moseby College Publishing, 1988, 8th ed).

If there are no obvious precursors...just what do you think that means?!
All that evidence huh.
Like this.
[GALLERY=media, 8798]Missing_Coelacanths by nPeace posted Dec 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM[/GALLERY]

Could you imagine! 65 million years and no fossils of a an organism that had been found to be living since 380 million years ago. It supposedly evolved, but disappeared from the scene for 65 million years, only to reappear unchanged.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So your God is perpetuating a lie...

So people believing the lie he is perpetuating can be hurt.... (nasty sod isn't he!)

So you can see people being punished for believing the lies of your God?
Is my God allowing something to remain that is not truthful?
He has, done this for centuries - not just recently.

For centuries people have chosen lies over truth - not because it was so hard to see the truth, but because they weren't concerned about truth (didn't care much for it); they hated it, or they preferred something else besides truth.
What does it say in the book of Thessalonians?
2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why is this a bad thing to let them hurt themselves?
Don't we do the same thing?

If you managed a company, and you became aware that there were thieves among the staff members, what would you do?
Would you not try to expose them, by setting a trap perhaps?
Would you not be glad when they are exposed, and you can remove them from their services?

Why do people complain about God doing things that are right? Do you hate righteousness that much?

The thing is, God did not create the lie.
What would you call the trap a manager sets to catch thieves in his firm though?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
No Jose........ the media reports describe how we have not identified ANY common ancestors of humans in a continuous 'journey' to mankind.
There can only be one last common ancestral species between taxa.

If you're going to try and pass yourself off as an expert in biology (to the point where you think your declarations on the subject carry weight), you should probably know things like this.

Jose, leave out the personal bulldust of me bailing out and all the rest.
This appears to be a "do as I say, not as I do" demand, as we'll see.

You're a scientist, right? (what did/do you do?).
I'm a biologist.

So come on...... use your skills to demonstrate to me how this gap does not cause a level of 'estimation' or 'guesswork'. Show me how this does not form a 'belief' in your mind that evoluition 'all the way to man' is right?
Earlier you agreed that not knowing the identity of the last common ancestral species between taxa doesn't preclude us from being able to conclude that they're related. But now you seem to have forgotten that.

So I think at this point you need to clarify. Are you still in agreement about the above? If not, then please explain why you've changed your mind.

And Jose, you've pushed a bit of science doctrine at me really, haven't you? All together you've gott yourself in to guessing, believing, doctrine./..... you've founded a religion, the 'Evolution Religion' Wow!
So it's "don't get personal with me, but I can get personal with you", eh? Fascinating.

Now most folks here believe absolutely in evolution, I think that @Hockeycowboy made mention of that in one post..... but there's just this little problem with that gap. Some scientists are keeping an open mind about it, I guess that's a good idea. But you're sunk in to your own Faith and Religion, the way you talk.
Good thing you're not getting personal, otherwise that'd be hypocritical. :rolleyes:
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
All that evidence huh.
Like this.
[GALLERY=media, 8798]Missing_Coelacanths by nPeace posted Dec 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM[/GALLERY]

Could you imagine! 65 million years and no fossils of a an organism that had been found to be living since 380 million years ago. It supposedly evolved, but disappeared from the scene for 65 million years, only to reappear unchanged.
I know nPeace is ignoring me, but........can you guys get some new arguments?

The coelacanths from the fossil record are in a different taxonomic family than the ones alive today.

What's next? It's only a theory? Where's the proof?

Sheesh.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
All that evidence huh.
Like this.
[GALLERY=media, 8798]Missing_Coelacanths by nPeace posted Dec 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM[/GALLERY]

Could you imagine! 65 million years and no fossils of a an organism that had been found to be living since 380 million years ago. It supposedly evolved, but disappeared from the scene for 65 million years, only to reappear unchanged.
What makes you think that it is "unchanged"? There are quite a few different species of Coelacanths, they are an entire family of fish, not a species. The modern species is different from older species. An expert could help you to see the differences, but here is an article with links to quite a few different species of ancient Coelacanth along with modern ones:

Coelacanth - Wikipedia

And the reason that we did not see fossil evidence for them is that the surviving Coelacanth are all deep ocean fish. The fossils that we get are from continental land masses that were temporarily shallow seas. Think of the continental shelves. Those are parts of continents. Animals that die there could be uplifted in a later tectonic event. Fish that die on the bottom of the ocean eventually tend to go along with the oceanic crust down subduction zones sooner or later. There are many fish that may have existed that would leave no fossil evidence for us to discover.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I know nPeace is ignoring me, but........can you guys get some new arguments?

The coelacanths from the fossil record are in a different taxonomic family than the ones alive today.

What's next? It's only a theory? Where's the proof?

Sheesh.

I had the same reaction. And as I said in my last post, deep ocean fish are not fossilized for us to see since they die and fall to the deep ocean floor. Eventually I gobble them up.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Is my God allowing something to remain that is not truthful?
He has, done this for centuries - not just recently.

For centuries people have chosen lies over truth - not because it was so hard to see the truth, but because they weren't concerned about truth (didn't care much for it); they hated it, or they preferred something else besides truth.
What does it say in the book of Thessalonians?
2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why is this a bad thing to let them hurt themselves?
Don't we do the same thing?

If you managed a company, and you became aware that there were thieves among the staff members, what would you do?
Would you not try to expose them, by setting a trap perhaps?
Would you not be glad when they are exposed, and you can remove them from their services?

Why do people complain about God doing things that are right? Do you hate righteousness that much?

The thing is, God did not create the lie.
What would you call the trap a manager sets to catch thieves in his firm though?

If I managed a company that had problems with theft I would stop it. I wouldn't go into hiding and allow it to continue, and threaten action 'soon' through a handful of employees that I revealed myself to.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since evidence needs interpretation, you rely on the words of the interpreter, which relies in turn on inference, not proof.....true? Since there is no actual proof that the evidence has been interpreted correctly, acceptance has to be based on faith.

You have a very strange concept of how the rational, skeptical empiricist thinks, as well as how to determine when evidence has been properly understood.

When one interprets the evidence correctly, he gets beneficial results. He is able to generalize a rule from the observations (induction), and use that generalization to predict future outcomes (deduction). When this occurs, we consider such generalizations useful and worth keeping without regard for such ideas as truth or proof.

The "actual proof" criterion you suggest is irrelevant. If an idea works, use it. I've already explained this to you. It's called empirical adequacy. These are the standards of science. It doesn't matter if a religious denomination or any other non-scientific subset of society disagrees. If applying reason to evidence isn't how one decides what is true about the world, what use is his opinion?

Fossils do not speak

Sure they do. You just need to know how to hear what they tell us.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If I managed a company that had problems with theft I would stop it. I wouldn't go into hiding and allow it to continue, and threaten action 'soon' through a handful of employees that I revealed myself to.

Is that what you think he did? :shrug:

The first humans stole something that was so significant that it needed a clever strategy to resolve the fallout and teach a valuable lesson at the same time.

Imagine.....there are just two humans in the world, ready to begin the most amazing project that God has ever undertaken in the universe. (that we know of) They were instructed to "fill the earth and to subdue it" under the watchful eye of their Creator. It should have been a happy and rewarding project, but a third party became involved with an agenda of his own.....he wanted to be a god but he didn't have anyone less powerful than himself to see him as anything special. Now there were lower creatures with intelligence who could see him as a god and give him the worship he craved. He told the newbie that God lied...he said that they would become like God if they ate of the forbidden fruit and that they would not die. They would know good and evil for themselves. He made it sound so appealing.....the first attempt at propaganda....and it worked.

But now there was a dilemma. Should God destroy these three rebels just because he could? The rebels did not challenge his power but questioned his sovereign right to make some rules to limit the use of their free will.

He decided to use them as an object lesson that would last for all eternity? Without intervening except when his purpose was threatened, God allowed these three to 'do their thing'.....he knew it would not turn out well, but telling them did little to bridle their free, will so he allowed them to see for themselves where making their own decisions independently of him, would take them.....and here we are. :rolleyes:

He is not hiding, but stepped back to allow things to take their natural course. At the end of this lesson, all humanity, as well as the angels who joined in with this rebellion, will have proven what they are. God will not need to judge them because by their own actions, they will have judged themselves, worthy of either life or death. Precedents will then be set for all eternity to come, so that this challenge of God's Universal Sovereignty can never be raised again.

That's it...nothing more complicated than that.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You have a very strange concept of how the rational, skeptical empiricist thinks, as well as how to determine when evidence has been properly understood.

When one interprets the evidence correctly, he gets beneficial results. He is able to generalize a rule from the observations (induction), and use that generalization to predict future outcomes (deduction). When this occurs, we consider such generalizations useful and worth keeping without regard for such ideas as truth or proof.

The "actual proof" criterion you suggest is irrelevant. If an idea works, use it. I've already explained this to you. It's called empirical adequacy. These are the standards of science. It doesn't matter if a religious denomination or any other non-scientific subset of society disagrees. If applying reason to evidence isn't how one decides what is true about the world, what use is his opinion?

I don't think God reads labels. He can read minds and motives though. He doesn't care what you call yourself because that only impresses others who wear the same label as you do. That is hardly a victory for you.

I'm sure you have no idea how your words read to someone with our understanding of matters.....so I rest my case which you have just confirmed. Truth and proof are unnecessary....even irrelevant....I think we get it. :rolleyes:

Sure they do. You just need to know how to hear what they tell us.

Yes, the ventriloquists voice in the fossil's mouth....we understand about that too. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is merely the truth.
I have to answer 15 posts on various threads, so I'll be taking key phrases to answer ......
The whole 'truth' about mankind's development is rather clouded.

That is another aspect of the belief system of fashion-science. Masses of people will swallow large quantities of bull-dust on the basis of what 'science says' This was discussed on a thread several months ago. A very easy way of gaining attention, delivering a truth-pill, etc is to announce that 'Scientists have......' done whatever.

So fashion-science (or psuedo-science?) not only has it's beliefs, doctrines, faith, it has a kind of deity all of its own...... 'science says'.


No, even if I did not tell you what I did I was not the loser here. I never made false claims about others.
Personakl stab...... no comment.

And what "gap" are you complaining about? There really is no "gap". DNA closed it.
No, it has not closed it. There is still an incomplete picture.
There are many inexact sciences, and the evolution theory is one of these.


Again with the false claims about others. There is no "Guess factor". Nor is there any Science Doctrine. There is only the scientific method. You keep complaining when we point out your ignorance and you keep making false claims about scientists that only confirms our claims.
Many scienmces are inexact.
Of course there is a Science Doctrine. You keep referring to it's rules etc.
The rest above is personal stabs.

Observations are not insults. If anything you are projecting again Tell me, what difference would it make if I had never worked in the field? My ability to support my claims would still be the same. I am not the one that derailed this thread. You got all bent out of shape when your errors were pointed out to you.
You're projecting that I have made claims about where you worked now.
Personal comments.... no reply there.

Science can be inexact, can be sought on the basis of guesstimates, mankind can even turn what it thought was science right round.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hello....
Well, you know, by any kind of definition a theory is and assumption, and therefore a kind of faith, I guess. You possibly believe in a statement made by another member, thus:-
.................... the fossil record supporting evolutionary common descent, .......


But so far it is incomplete, and therefore a bunch of scientists who support external intervention by a higher intelligence has not been junked. In any event, all life possibly came from delivery via external bodies which could match a metaphorical Genesis. It seems to me, having read some of @Hockeycowboy 's posts that some JWs do perceive early Genesis as metaphor.
You're correct about theories....they are not 'set in stone'. Therefore require a measure of faith for believing in them, although most secularists won't accept that pov. But it's just being honest:

Superseded scientific theory - Wikipedia

Just curious, OldBadger....with what part of Genesis, did an explanation I gave lead you to believe I take that part as metaphorical?

Take care.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Why do you think that finding the fossil remnants of a common ancestor is so important? The DNA evidence is a slam dunk for evolution alone. Fossils are obvious evidence to those without much education in the matter, and the fossil record will always be incomplete by its very nature. Complaining about "gaps" when every fossil found only confirms the theory and with millions of fossils found you claim looks rather pathetic.

I'm not complaining.......... you have been, about JW beliefs.
The DNA journey all the way to mankind is inexact., incomplete.

By the way, "estimation" is not "guesswork". You never answered my question if you were guessing about thieves. I am sure that you have far less evidence for your conclusions about thieves than scientists have for the theory of evolution. A lack of understanding on your part does not make the ability to understand the science "religion". You are once again projecting your flaws upon others and trying to insult them in doing so.
Og course UI did, you just don't seem to take in what I tell tyou.
I'm can't afford to waste my time on I-said you-said stuff, or your moaning about how I cannot answer your questions.

If you can show a complete DNA line, fossil record or other journey all the way to mankind then that would be very helpful.

I know you want to be helpful iof you can...... but in this one I think you've got trouble.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Why? Deeje does it quite a bit.

Also, your post to SZ where you claim we couldn't debunk your assertions about the flood strikes me as extremely funny. If that's the case, why shouldn't I be able to rate it as such?

Well, she shouldn't do it...no one should. If that's a rule.
I even did it

And you didn't "debunk" the evidence I presented. You only offered counter-arguments.

You forget, I'm not a Young Earth Creationist.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have to answer 15 posts on various threads, so I'll be taking key phrases to answer ......
The whole 'truth' about mankind's development is rather clouded.

There is no excuse for quoting out of context. That is usually a form of lying. Since my quote has nothing to do with your response this appears to be rather sketchy on your part. And how is mankind's development rather clouded?

That is another aspect of the belief system of fashion-science. Masses of people will swallow large quantities of bull-dust on the basis of what 'science says' This was discussed on a thread several months ago. A very easy way of gaining attention, delivering a truth-pill, etc is to announce that 'Scientists have......' done whatever.

So fashion-science (or psuedo-science?) not only has it's beliefs, doctrines, faith, it has a kind of deity all of its own...... 'science says'.

Let's try to keep honest, this is your second failure. Accepting science is not a "belief system". That is your flaw not those that you are debating against.


Personakl stab...... no comment.

No, guidelines that you should follow. and again quoting out of context is practically always dishonest.

No, it has not closed it. There is still an incomplete picture.
There are many inexact sciences, and the evolution theory is one of these.

Only rather small and unimportant details are not known. And all sciences are "inexact". And evolution is rather amazingly exact since with millions of fossils found, any of which could have conceivably have falsified the theory that no such fossils have been found is rather telling.



Many scienmces are inexact.
Of course there is a Science Doctrine. You keep referring to it's rules etc.
The rest above is personal stabs.[.quote]

Please, corrections of incorrect behavior on your part are not "personal stabs". You will never learn with this attitude. What is this supposed "Science Doctrine" or are you simply bearing false witness against your neighbor again?

You're projecting that I have made claims about where you worked now.
Personal comments.... no reply there.

Science can be inexact, can be sought on the basis of guesstimates, mankind can even turn what it thought was science right round.

Oh my, misstating what I said is also dishonest. Try to be honest and there will be no "personal comments". You make it rather impossible to have a rational conversation with this behavior.

Meanwhile you really should try to learn what is and what is not science. You get some things right and then you turn around and it seems that you did not understand what you said earlier at all.
 
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