Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

[oldbadger]

G'day OB....doing OK....how about yourself?

Hello.... not too badly!

The armchair critics are a dime a dozen OB. Insults are supposed to replace evidence and anything offered in defence of creation is completely dismissed out of hand. There is middle ground that allows for the Bible and true science (as opposed to the theoretical kind) to be reconciled. Since the Creator designed and made what science studies, how could it be otherwise?

I recognise that everything that is, every force, every matter and anti-matter, all light and dark energy....... anything and everything is a part of the Deity that I believe in, and so, sure, all is of God to me.

Some of the members posting 'at' so called 'creationists' have their own religion, with its doctrines, kind of creed, faiths and even a kind of god-head' If you push upon it they seem to rant back in very personal ways. It's amazing.

Hockeycowboy[/USER] and I agree completely. I support Genesis as it is written but with understanding of how the original language applies but is not conveyed accurately enough in English IMO.

OK...... that is different, in some ways, to metaphor, but it does sound to me as if language difficulties could come close to the word 'metaphor'.
There is a lot of God's formation of this tiny solar system that we haven't figured out yet...... we still are not sure how many planets we've got, and there is a belief (guessing, you see) that our solar system's influence could stretch out as far as a light year, or so I heard on the telly recently, so for the fashion-scientists to rant at 'creationists' about how exact everything (about science) is, is a bit sad.

There is nothing new ever presented on these threads, especially if they involve JW's.....you just get the idea from the "science buffs" that we 'creationists' accept the "big wizard in the sky speaking everything into existence like magic", but nothing could be further from the truth for us. Because we alone are created in the image of our Maker, I believe that we actually create like he does. We begin with an idea, and then gather the materials and begin to form the 'bare bones' of what we are intending to make......and we keep working on it till we stand back and are satisfied with it. All artists know that not every work we produce meets with that final satisfaction. Often you will find many versions of the same subject, but only one will make the grade from the artist's perspective.

Yep. I have been on RF for many many years and usually not bothered to enter such discussions because they always turn in to debates.

The fact that God concludes each creative period with an expression of satisfaction indicates that he was pleased with his final effort. What he planned to accomplish in each time period met with his satisfaction.

There were 6 creative periods that are called "days" in Genesis, but there is nothing in the original language that limits these periods to 24 hours. They were allotted times for the planned creative activity that took place within that period. They could well have been millions of Earth years long. The Creator is not restricted by time.
A slow and deliberate creation fits with what science understands to be true, but disagrees with the YEC scenario of 7 literal days for all that creation to take place.
The fact that there is no declaration of satisfaction in connection with the 7th day, indicates to us (and is supported in scripture) that the 7th day has not yet concluded. When it does, all will be exactly as the Creator planned.....it will all be "very good". Humans will have chosen their own position with regard to the Creator and will thus have chosen their own destiny.

The fact that Genesis tells us about the original condition of the Earth as "a formless waste" indicates that originally this planet was like all the rest...inhospitable to life. There was a long period of preparation before any life was produced. How could the writer of Genesis know that this was the case? How did he know that the first sentient life began with marine creatures and flying creatures?

The Bible does not mention the abundant microscopic life that God put in place early to facilitate the endless recycling that takes place in nature, breaking down the environment to feed the plant life and to keep the earth clean and eco-systems functioning. It's all so beautifully and thoughtfully planned, if you stop denying the possibility of a powerful Creator who is not a magician but uses his power in a controlled way.

We see no reason to reject what science knows, but will disagree with what science "believes" but cannot prove. When you have to rely on interpretation of evidence, then the spiritually minded will see direct creation that is well designed and executed rather than relying on an endless series of fortunate mutations that they cannot prove ever happened on the scale that would have been necessary.

That is briefly what I believe to be true.

Fair enough, Deeje.

I love watching films about space and our star system's development. I often think of Genesis when presenters are describing aspects of the development, everything, absolutely everything..... comes from 'above'. Even the seas were delivered on time as required, from above. And I still do wonder whether mankind's final development might possibly have come, from above.

Your way of looking at Genesis 'days' is what I perceive to be a kind of metaphor. I am not sure how our Standard National Curriculum delivers the evolution creation lesson plan but I don't read about the kinds of rows that seem to happen in North America over here.

Good idea OB....let's invite the polite and open minded people who might like to discuss, rather than just hurl insults as if unproven science cannot possibly be wrong.
In my view, these have as much of a "belief system" as we do. If their evidence was not interpreted for them, I don't think they would ever arrive at their conclusions.

Deliberate design is never accidental. There is way too much thoughtful planning in nature to have ever been the result of so many beneficial flukes.

Over to you.....

Yes.......
I know that JW friend's beliefs are not the same as mine, but we sometimes do discuss and compare beliefs to discover where we might concur........ there is quite a lot, but the gaps are there.

We have all known scientists in our time. Many have been quiet people in my experience. Some have belonged to religions. I do wish that more of these could be around these discussions and debates.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, she shouldn't do it...no one should. If that's a rule.
I even did it

And you didn't "debunk" the evidence I presented. You only offered counter-arguments.

You forget, I'm not a Young Earth Creationist.

Did you ever present any evidence? I remember you failing terribly in your flood thread. When I offered to go over the concept you simply ignored the offer.

In the sciences to even have evidence one must first have a testable hypothesis. Tell me, what reasonable observations would show your hypothesis to be wrong? If you can't answer that question you did not offer any evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not complaining.......... you have been, about JW beliefs.
The DNA journey all the way to mankind is inexact., incomplete.

It does not need to be "complete". You are now grasping at straws.

Og course UI did, you just don't seem to take in what I tell tyou.
I'm can't afford to waste my time on I-said you-said stuff, or your moaning about how I cannot answer your questions.

If you can show a complete DNA line, fossil record or other journey all the way to mankind then that would be very helpful.

I know you want to be helpful iof you can...... but in this one I think you've got trouble.

Please, this would be as bad as rejecting the conviction of a shoplifter because they were not on film for a few seconds. You are not being consistent.

 

[oldbadger]

There can only be one last common ancestral species between taxa.

Bold statement.

If you're going to try and pass yourself off as an expert in biology (to the point where you think your declarations on the subject carry weight), you should probably know things like this.

Not me mate.
Are you an expert?

I'm a biologist.

OK. Interesting.
Hope you like your work.

Earlier you agreed that not knowing the identity of the last common ancestral species between taxa doesn't preclude us from being able to conclude that they're related. But now you seem to have forgotten that.

There is a gap, and neither you nor I have any exact idea about what might lay within.

So I think at this point you need to clarify. Are you still in agreement about the above? If not, then please explain why you've changed your mind.

So it's "don't get personal with me, but I can get personal with you", eh? Fascinating.

Good thing you're not getting personal, otherwise that'd be hypocritical.

Leave out your personal stabs, mate. It's not going to help you to fill that gap, is it?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm not complaining.......... you have been, about JW beliefs.
The DNA journey all the way to mankind is inexact., incomplete.


Og course UI did, you just don't seem to take in what I tell tyou.
I'm can't afford to waste my time on I-said you-said stuff, or your moaning about how I cannot answer your questions.

If you can show a complete DNA line, fossil record or other journey all the way to mankind then that would be very helpful.

I know you want to be helpful iof you can...... but in this one I think you've got trouble.

(oldBadger, I think I'm like you, in only going to respond to those with reasonable and respectful attitudes. Impugning one's education or honesty is not conducive to pleasant exchanges!)

As you know, no one can get DNA from fossils!
And DNA similarities -- of which almost every organism shares -- is not proof of common ancestry, i.e., shared kinship. It is only evidence that all life, being formed from one multi-pliable substance -- DNA -- came from one Designer.

Where I live there is a street near a park, you can see many different styles of homes. But some of those homes' facades are made from stucco, on a cinder-block base. Although having different designs, the use of stucco seems to indicate that they had the same builder. So I checked it out: they did.

Same indication with living things: much diversity, but similar building blocks.

 

[Subduction Zone]

(oldBadger, I think I'm like you, in only going to respond to those with reasonable and respectful attitudes. Impugning one's education or honesty is not conducive to pleasant exchanges!)

As you know, no one can get DNA from fossils!
And DNA similarities -- of which almost every organism shares -- is not proof of common ancestry, i.e., shared kinship. It is only evidence that all life, being formed from one multi-pliable substance -- DNA -- came from one Designer.

Where I live there is a street near a park, you can see many different styles of homes. But some of those homes' facades are made from stucco, on a cinder-block base. Although having different designs, the use of stucco seems to indicate that they had the same builder. So I checked it out: they did.

Same indication with living things: much diversity, but similar building blocks.

DNA is evidence of a common ancestor and there is no evidence for your beliefs. You really should learn what is and what is not evidence. Also "proof" is a mathematical concept. If you want to use the legal version of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" then DNA is "proof" in that sense.

 

[oldbadger]

You're correct about theories....they are not 'set in stone'. Therefore require a measure of faith for believing in them, although most secularists won't accept that pov. But it's just being honest:

Superseded scientific theory - Wikipedia

Many of the sciences are inexact.
And 'yes', there seems to be a kind of fashionable science movement which builds 'science' in to a kind of religion...... a cult, maybe?

Just curious, OldBadger....with what part of Genesis, did an explanation I gave lead you to believe I take that part as metaphorical?

Take care.

I can't go back just now, Hockey........,. but Deeje wrote in a recent post that JWs do not see a Genesis day as a 24 hr period, for translation reasons. It's easier for me to perceive that as a kind of metaphor. Maybe I read something like that from you?

I get this picture that you accept evolution, as in 'our antibiotics are losing their efficacy' but that mankind needed much more delivery than that. Since many researchers now think that life may have been delivered here via incoming bodies I have no problem with seeing life as having come from 'above', at any rate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Many of the sciences are inexact.
And 'yes', there seems to be a kind of fashionable science movement which builds 'science' in to a kind of religion...... a cult, maybe?


I can't go back just now, Hockey........,. but Deeje wrote in a recent post that JWs do not see a Genesis day as a 24 hr period, for translation reasons. It's easier for me to perceive that as a kind of metaphor. Maybe I read something like that from you?

I get this picture that you accept evolution, as in 'our antibiotics are losing their efficacy' but that mankind needed much more delivery than that. Since many researchers now think that life may have been delivered here via incoming bodies I have no problem with seeing life as having come from 'above', at any rate.

Oh my, more projection. By the way, antibiotics failing is a result of evolution.

 

[oldbadger]

....... a form of lying.

Let's try to keep honest,....
...... this is your second failure.

quoting out of context is practically always dishonest.

Personal insults. etc........ you wasted your time with those.

Onnly rather small and unimportant details are not known. And all sciences are "inexact". And evolution is rather amazingly exact since with millions of fossils found, any of which could have conceivably have falsified the theory that no such fossils have been found is rather telling.

I wrote that many sciences are inexact.
Previously I wrote.....
There are many inexact sciences, and the evolution theory is one of these.
And since we don't know the whole evolution story then there is plenty of inexactness about that.

So far you have not produced any certain evidence that Mankind's development was ALL JUST THROUGH NATURAL SELECTION OF SPECIES.

There is a Gap, a fossil gap..... DNA gap....... or we would all have been told otherwise.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh my, more projection. By the way, antibiotics failing is a result of evolution.

You can't read straight.
You have just agreed with what I wrote.

That is what I said. ...... Oh.... just read it!

I get this picture that you accept evolution, as in 'our antibiotics are losing their efficacy'

You do everything that you accuse others of, it seems.

 

[John53]

Is that what you think he did?

The first humans stole something that was so significant that it needed a clever strategy to resolve the fallout and teach a valuable lesson at the same time.

Imagine.....there are just two humans in the world, ready to begin the most amazing project that God has ever undertaken in the universe. (that we know of) They were instructed to "fill the earth and to subdue it" under the watchful eye of their Creator. It should have been a happy and rewarding project, but a third party became involved with an agenda of his own.....he wanted to be a god but he didn't have anyone less powerful than himself to see him as anything special. Now there were lower creatures with intelligence who could see him as a god and give him the worship he craved. He told the newbie that God lied...he said that they would become like God if they ate of the forbidden fruit and that they would not die. They would know good and evil for themselves. He made it sound so appealing.....the first attempt at propaganda....and it worked.

But now there was a dilemma. Should God destroy these three rebels just because he could? The rebels did not challenge his power but questioned his sovereign right to make some rules to limit the use of their free will.

He decided to use them as an object lesson that would last for all eternity? Without intervening except when his purpose was threatened, God allowed these three to 'do their thing'.....he knew it would not turn out well, but telling them did little to bridle their free, will so he allowed them to see for themselves where making their own decisions independently of him, would take them.....and here we are.

He is not hiding, but stepped back to allow things to take their natural course. At the end of this lesson, all humanity, as well as the angels who joined in with this rebellion, will have proven what they are. God will not need to judge them because by their own actions, they will have judged themselves, worthy of either life or death. Precedents will then be set for all eternity to come, so that this challenge of God's Universal Sovereignty can never be raised again.

That's it...nothing more complicated than that.

It's what I think in response to a question asked of me about a ridiculous analogy.

What I think about what you wrote is different. I think you are interpreting stories from a different time in the hope of living forever and I don't believe a word of it. It's nothing personal, I also don't believe the stories of any other Gods.

I think the universe some how came into existence but I don't know how. I think that life started in at least one little corner of the universe but I don't know how. I think that life evolved into what I see around me today because of the evidence I have observed.

Now I think I'll have a cup of tea.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Many of the sciences are inexact.
And 'yes', there seems to be a kind of fashionable science movement which builds 'science' in to a kind of religion...... a cult, maybe?


I can't go back just now, Hockey........,. but Deeje wrote in a recent post that JWs do not see a Genesis day as a 24 hr period, for translation reasons. It's easier for me to perceive that as a kind of metaphor. Maybe I read something like that from you?

I get this picture that you accept evolution, as in 'our antibiotics are losing their efficacy' but that mankind needed much more delivery than that. Since many researchers now think that life may have been delivered here via incoming bodies I have no problem with seeing life as having come from 'above', at any rate.

Oh, yeah, the creative "days" of Genesis! Almost forgot about that.

One line of evidence: If you read about the events in Day 6...there was just too much going on, for it to be taken literally, as 24 hrs!

I'm going to see what Isaac Newton's view was on that concept, if I can find it.

I am fascinated by his understanding of the Scriptures! I don't share all his views. But I appreciate the fact that he loved the Bible, but was disdainful of the Church and it's doctrine!

I'm glad his religious writings are being uncovered, and printed for the public to read.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Personal insults. etc........ you wasted your time with those.

None of those were personal insults. They were once again observations. Please learn the difference.

I wrote that many sciences are inexact.
Previously I wrote.....
There are many inexact sciences, and the evolution theory is one of these.
And since we don't know the whole evolution story then there is plenty of inexactness about that.

So far you have not produced any certain evidence that Mankind's development was ALL JUST THROUGH NATURAL SELECTION OF SPECIES.

There is a Gap, a fossil gap..... DNA gap....... or we would all have been told otherwise.

I know, both of us wrote that, I was rather amazed that you knew that sciences tend to be inexact. You still don't seem to understand that we know enough of evolution that it is considered to be a fact, just as gravity is taken to be a fact. I know that you won't like this, but in view of your claim of your earlier work with thieves you are not being consistent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can't read straight.
You have just agreed with what I wrote.

That is what I said. ...... Oh.... just read it!

I get this picture that you accept evolution, as in 'our antibiotics are losing their efficacy'

You do everything that you accuse others of, it seems.

I know, you only want to make a special pleading fallacy in the case of man.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh, yeah, the creative "days" of Genesis! Almost forgot about that.

One line of evidence: If you read about the events in Day 6...there was just too much going on, for it to be taken literally, as 24 hrs!

I'm going to see what Isaac Newton's view was on that concept, if I can find it.

I am fascinated by his understanding of the Scriptures! I don't share all his views. But I appreciate the fact that he loved the Bible, but was disdainful of the Church and it's doctrine!

I'm glad his religious writings are being uncovered, and printed for the public to read.

I didn't know about Isaac Newton's religious writings. That will be interesting to read.

I'm guessing he was a Protestant. The CofE Courts were very corrupt and greedy. If you could pay you get mostly any judgement from them that you needed. Dickens wrote about Church corruption.

 

[oldbadger]

You still don't seem to understand that we know enough of evolution that it is considered to be a fact, just as gravity is taken to be a fact.

You still cannot grasp the fact that science is still seeking to close the gap with mankind. If 'they' are still looking then 'you;' can't be right.

I know that you won't like this, but in view of your claim of your earlier work with thieves you are not being consistent.

What is not to like?
There very fact that you refer to anything that I ever did as 'your earlier work with thieves' is such a delightful error of fact that I'm still smiling.

You just can't help it.

And you haven't got the information to close the evolution gap to mankind.

 

[oldbadger]

I know, you only want to make a special pleading fallacy in the case of man.

Nah....... I'm simply telling you what the researchers have reported, that they have not yet closed that gap, which is very interesting.

And until they have all the info........ you haven't got much of a shout .... :shrug

 

[Subduction Zone]

You still cannot grasp the fact that science is still seeking to close the gap with mankind. If 'they' are still looking then 'you;' can't be right.


What is not to like?
There very fact that you refer to anything that I ever did as 'your earlier work with thieves' is such a delightful error of fact that I'm still smiling.

You just can't help it.

And you haven't got the information to close the evolution gap to mankind.

You are worshiping the God of the Gaps. Gaps will always exist. They simple get smaller and smaller. Scientists try to fill in every last corner. You act as if there was some doubt when there really is not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nah....... I'm simply telling you what the researchers have reported, that they have not yet closed that gap, which is very interesting.

And until they have all the info........ you haven't got much of a shout .... :shrug

So all of the supposed shop lifters that you ever caught should have been found not guilty because you lacked sufficient evidence.

Being inconsistent is a form of dishonesty.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The following JW website asserts that science claims "Evolution is a proven fact."
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/teen-questions/should-i-believe-in-evolution/
CLAIM: Evolution is a proven fact.
That's a lie on multiple levels.

Really? Even Jose Fly believes the claim....

There can only be one last common ancestral species between taxa.

Or is this a unique claim, to you?