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Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

ecco

Veteran Member

So Jesus thinks it's a good thing to hide Truth from wise and prudent people. He prefers to only let the "babes" in on the big secret.

On the other hand, it could just be the words of some religious huckster saying to a friend:
Ya know, there's some people too smart and skeptical to buy what I'm selling. Screw it. I'll just go after the easily led sheeples. Moses knows, there are plenty of them around.
 

Audie

Veteran Member

So Jesus thinks it's a good thing to hide Truth from wise and prudent people. He prefers to only let the "babes" in on the big secret.

On the other hand, it could just be the words of some religious huckster saying to a friend:
Ya know, there's some people too smart and skeptical to buy what I'm selling. Screw it. I'll just go after the easily led sheeples. Moses knows, there are plenty of them around.

The JW deliberstely cultivate ignorance.

Then claim special access to arcane knowledge,
insight to the basic nature of reality.

And certainly more knowledge of earth history
than any geologist.

The route to this knowledge has great
appeal to the lazy minded.

STUDY? Not when just taking the
right attitude works so much better!
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The only failure here, is on your part -- and other skeptics -- to honestly try to understand it.

Newton did...he 'studied it daily', and thought it was the greatest book ever written. (It's lessons & narratives haven't changed.)

Newton, unlike you, was a skeptic. His studies of the Bible made him a skeptic about many biblical things.

Religious views of Isaac Newton - Wikipedia
Like many contemporaries (e.g., Thomas Aikenhead) he lived with the threat of severe punishment if he had been open about his religious beliefs. Heresy was a crime ...

According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism.[ 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'.

[23] As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton allegedly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul, a personal devil and literal demons.
If I'm not mistaken, you believe Jesus is God. Newton did not.
If I'm not mistaken, you believe in Satan. Newton did not.

Perhaps you need to find someone else to use as an example.
 

Audie

Veteran Member

Newton, unlike you, was a skeptic. His studies of the Bible made him a skeptic about many biblical things.

Religious views of Isaac Newton - Wikipedia
Like many contemporaries (e.g., Thomas Aikenhead) he lived with the threat of severe punishment if he had been open about his religious beliefs. Heresy was a crime ...

According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism.[ 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'.

[23] As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton allegedly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul, a personal devil and literal demons.
If I'm not mistaken, you believe Jesus is God. Newton did not.
If I'm not mistaken, you believe in Satan. Newton did not.

Perhaps you need to find someone else to use as an example.

That is as recent an example as they have.

Newton was a remarkable man.

He believed in alchemy.

Why oh why did we not heed such wisdom,
even unto this day?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The JW deliberstely cultivate ignorance.

Then claim special access to arcane knowledge,
insight to the basic nature of reality.

And certainly more knowledge of earth history
than any geologist.

The route to this knowledge has great
appeal to the lazy minded.

STUDY? Not when just taking the
right attitude works so much better!
The Jehovah's Witnesses call proving the governing body righteous "study".
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I feel that a writer or speaker using a metaphor will know what it stands for. It's analogous to calling a word a synonym. A synonym of what? Hopefully, the one calling a word a synonym knows what other word he is referring to.
OK...... I acknowledge your opinion about how metaphor should be used, and valued, or not.
We just see it differently.

You are fortunate for that. I no longer live in the US, where religion has a pervasive, and in my opinion, pernicious affect on daily life. I've lived in Mexico most of the last decade, where religion is even m re pervasive in the lives of the faithful, but affects mine less than it did in the States, where it successfully labored to influence politics.

I only know about North America from films and documentaries.... and the news. I don't know if could cope with the social pressures and any judgments caused by religion; it would be money-status and mammon that would put me off first and foremost.

I have mostly had good experiences with deists, most of whom identify more with rationalists than religious enthusiasts such as interventionalist theists - those who tell us about an active god regulating our world, writing scripture, reviewing and judging our thoughts, considering our prayers, etc..

I don't mind religions or followers. I don't mind them telling me about how their God(s) regulate their worlds. I don't even mind evangelists....... I only need to turn on the polite assertion when folks, any folks at all, want to tell me or my wife what we should be doing, whether they are in religion or anything else.

How do they stay open?

The Diocesan Board of the Church of England is in control of unbelievable riches! As the congregations drop away I suspect that what is left is money........ bloody great bunches of it. Some Churches do get sold to become dwellings for the rich, or luxury apartments and flats, and the remaining churches get funding for repairs from our national lottery which we don't mind (I suppose) because we like to see the dear old places, and visit them for community functions etc....... churches can have secular uses here.

If you're unbelievably rich and want to get married in high style., status and with media coverage, you can get married in Canterbury Cathedral! You personally just need to tell some fibs about what you believe and pay the price. Ten years ago the hiring of the Cathedral for a wedding service would have cost you £26,000. I expect that would be about £40,000 today. Some non religious couples will attend a number of church services to show that they are Christians so that they can have the White wedding in a Church..... the traditional wedding. Not many will go back afterwards...... what people will do fgor traditions and fashions!

Our Churches do well out of weddings, funerals, baptisms etc...,.. and the little church on the hill with a Sunday morning congreagtion of 5 or less does get a vicar paid by the Diocese...... the other church workers are lay folks who give their time.

But the JWs are growing.....
 

Audie

Veteran Member
OK...... I acknowledge your opinion about how metaphor should be used, and valued, or not.
We just see it differently.



I only know about North America from films and documentaries.... and the news. I don't know if could cope with the social pressures and any judgments caused by religion; it would be money-status and mammon that would put me off first and foremost.



I don't mind religions or followers. I don't mind them telling me about how their God(s) regulate their worlds. I don't even mind evangelists....... I only need to turn on the polite assertion when folks, any folks at all, want to tell me or my wife what we should be doing, whether they are in religion or anything else.



The Diocesan Board of the Church of England is in control of unbelievable riches! As the congregations drop away I suspect that what is left is money........ bloody great bunches of it. Some Churches do get sold to become dwellings for the rich, or luxury apartments and flats, and the remaining churches get funding for repairs from our national lottery which we don't mind (I suppose) because we like to see the dear old places, and visit them for community functions etc....... churches can have secular uses here.

If you're unbelievably rich and want to get married in high style., status and with media coverage, you can get married in Canterbury Cathedral! You personally just need to tell some fibs about what you believe and pay the price. Ten years ago the hiring of the Cathedral for a wedding service would have cost you £26,000. I expect that would be about £40,000 today. Some non religious couples will attend a number of church services to show that they are Christians so that they can have the White wedding in a Church..... the traditional wedding. Not many will go back afterwards...... what people will do fgor traditions and fashions!

Our Churches do well out of weddings, funerals, baptisms etc...,.. and the little church on the hill with a Sunday morning congreagtion of 5 or less does get a vicar paid by the Diocese...... the other church workers are lay folks who give their time.

But the JWs are growing.....

A most depressing post, especially the last line.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The only failure here, is on your part -- and other skeptics -- to honestly try to understand it.

I think that the unbeliever understands scripture better because he is able to consider it discompassionately and without the need to reconcile its apparent contradictions, moral errors, and errors in science and history. When the unbeliever reads the Genesis creation story, for example, he sees an ancient myth that, like all creation stories, is almost entirely incorrect. The believer will inject something not evident in the scripture to attempt to reconcile what appears to be an error, since he believes that the story comes from God and can't be wrong.

For that reason, the skeptic should trust his own analyses over those of the believer when they differ, and not defer to the believer's claim of authoritative knowledge, nor heed his effort to disqualify the opinions of the unbeliever.

In the past, I collected several of these efforts to explain to me or others why our opinions were not as good as theirs:

[1] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit

[2] You were obviously never a "true christian"

[3] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.

[4] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.

[5] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.

[6] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.

[7] Don't fall in the trap of being a one verse wonder. You need to understand the passage and true meaning of the verse.

[8] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.

[9] I would question the person who thinks that you understand even one page of any Bible. Without first learning the language how could you.

[10] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.

[11] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!

[12] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana

[13] Like I say there are no errors in the bible only skeptics that can't read and comprehend.

[14] You need Jehovah’s approval to understand His word.

Naturally, we reject these pronouncements and go on deciding for ourselves what the Bible says and what it means. A vague or ambiguous passage has no definite meaning at all, like much poetry and song lyrics that are deliberately vague, making pronouncements by believers about what such passages mean of as little value to the skeptic as what this Beatle fan or that one says that Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds means to him or her. Imagine one of these people telling you or me that we aren't qualified to disagree because we aren't Beatles fans and haven't spent the tens of thousands of hours listening to them that they have, and there we should defer to their preferred interpretation.

Really, how would any skeptics ever hope to accurately understand it's lessons, in light of Matthew 11:25-26 & Hebrews 4:12?

Matthew 11:25 - "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

This is yet another effort to disqualify skeptics, and an ancient one at that - this time for being wise and prudent instead of thinking like babes.

My assessment would be the other way around - thinking like a babe is less desirable that being wise and prudent. Babes believe what they are told uncritically, whereas the wise and prudent evaluate claims on their merits after the application of reason to evidence, a method with a far greater track record for achieving hoped for or expected outcomes..

Babes don't actually use a sense of right and wrong like the wise and prudent to make what should be moral decisions, but rather, make them according to perceived rewards and punishments meted out by a watchful, judgmental authority figure.

The wise and the prudent don't engage in magical thinking like the babes, who think that their wishes can effect how the universe responds.

Christianity considers foolish that which secular humanists consider wise, but the reverse is true as well. The only things I want to carry from childhood into adulthood is a sense of wonder, playfulness, and the ability to laugh heartily. The rest is best left behind.

I hope that your choice is bringing you satisfaction. Mine has for me.

Newton did...he 'studied it daily', and thought it was the greatest book ever written.

In my opinion, Newton wrote a better book - one that provided guidance getting man to the moon and back centuries after it was written, and one which mankind was hard-pressed to improve upon for centuries. Shouldn't also be true for the Bible if it were the greatest book ever written? There's nothing in it that couldn't have been written by someone from the first century, and most people today could go through it and make tons of corrections and improvements. What does that say when almost anyone can improve on the Bible (and Qur'an), but very few can improve on a book by Newton?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
On the other hand, it could just be the words of some religious huckster saying to a friend: Ya know, there's some people too smart and skeptical to buy what I'm selling. Screw it. I'll just go after the easily led sheeples. Moses knows, there are plenty of them around.

It's not like they aren't aware of who their target audience is:
  • "Ignorance is the mother of piety" - Pope Gregory I
  • "For in much wisdom is much vexation and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." - Ecclesiastes 1:18
  • "Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God." - Martin Luther
  • "Empty your minds of secular knowledge." - John Chrysostom, Holy Hierarch of Constantinople
  • "The smallest of minds are the easiest to fill with faith" - Pope Leo X
  • "Since God has spoken to us it is no longer necessary for us to think." - St Augustine of Hippo
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Just how many viable ones do you think there were?

Even the Prophet Nathan predicted something wrong. Did you know that?

(But because he was loyal, Jehovah didn't hold it against him.)

So it's ok to have dishonest interpretations if you're loyal?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Dishonest, and loyal? No. Making mistakes, and loyal? Yes.

See Nathan, above.

So it's not possible for sceptics to make mistakes with their interpretations. You judge them all as dishonest...

(Maybe they are only dishonest because their interpretation doesn't agree with yours...)

And your interpretations are perfect?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So it's not possible for sceptics to make mistakes with their interpretations. You judge them all as dishonest...

(Maybe they are only dishonest because their interpretation doesn't agree with yours...)

And your interpretations are perfect?
No, they can't say that the governing body's interpretations are perfect because they change them, but they all agree that the information is Heaven sent so, um, Heaven lies? Nevermind. It can't be thought out. So, don't care so much.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I think that the unbeliever understands scripture better because he is able to consider it discompassionately and without the need to reconcile its apparent contradictions, moral errors, and errors in science and history. When the unbeliever reads the Genesis creation story, for example, he sees an ancient myth that, like all creation stories, is almost entirely incorrect. The believer will inject something not evident in the scripture to attempt to reconcile what appears to be an error, since he believes that the story comes from God and can't be wrong.

For that reason, the skeptic should trust his own analyses over those of the believer when they differ, and not defer to the believer's claim of authoritative knowledge, nor heed his effort to disqualify the opinions of the unbeliever.

In the past, I collected several of these efforts to explain to me or others why our opinions were not as good as theirs:

[1] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit

[2] You were obviously never a "true christian"

[3] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.

[4] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.

[5] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.

[6] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.

[7] Don't fall in the trap of being a one verse wonder. You need to understand the passage and true meaning of the verse.

[8] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.

[9] I would question the person who thinks that you understand even one page of any Bible. Without first learning the language how could you.

[10] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.

[11] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!

[12] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana

[13] Like I say there are no errors in the bible only skeptics that can't read and comprehend.

[14] You need Jehovah’s approval to understand His word.

Naturally, we reject these pronouncements and go on deciding for ourselves what the Bible says and what it means. A vague or ambiguous passage has no definite meaning at all, like much poetry and song lyrics that are deliberately vague, making pronouncements by believers about what such passages mean of as little value to the skeptic as what this Beatle fan or that one says that Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds means to him or her. Imagine one of these people telling you or me that we aren't qualified to disagree because we aren't Beatles fans and haven't spent the tens of thousands of hours listening to them that they have, and there we should defer to their preferred interpretation.



Matthew 11:25 - "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

This is yet another effort to disqualify skeptics, and an ancient one at that - this time for being wise and prudent instead of thinking like babes.

My assessment would be the other way around - thinking like a babe is less desirable that being wise and prudent. Babes believe what they are told uncritically, whereas the wise and prudent evaluate claims on their merits after the application of reason to evidence, a method with a far greater track record for achieving hoped for or expected outcomes..

Babes don't actually use a sense of right and wrong like the wise and prudent to make what should be moral decisions, but rather, make them according to perceived rewards and punishments meted out by a watchful, judgmental authority figure.

The wise and the prudent don't engage in magical thinking like the babes, who think that their wishes can effect how the universe responds.

Christianity considers foolish that which secular humanists consider wise, but the reverse is true as well. The only things I want to carry from childhood into adulthood is a sense of wonder, playfulness, and the ability to laugh heartily. The rest is best left behind.

I hope that your choice is bringing you satisfaction. Mine has for me.



In my opinion, Newton wrote a better book - one that provided guidance getting man to the moon and back centuries after it was written, and one which mankind was hard-pressed to improve upon for centuries. Shouldn't also be true for the Bible if it were the greatest book ever written? There's nothing in it that couldn't have been written by someone from the first century, and most people today could go through it and make tons of corrections and improvements. What does that say when almost anyone can improve on the Bible (and Qur'an), but very few can improve on a book by Newton?
Fascinating reading, this post was! Honestly!

I’ve gotta run, but I will respond to your points, gradually. I wish we could converse in person.

Take care...I’ll be back either tomorrow or the day after.
 
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