Question about 28:4 to Muslim posters

[FearGod]

Thank you for confirming. I just wanted to have an understanding of what you believe so I don't misunderstand or misrepresent your words.

If the Jews became the Banu Israil after they arrived in Israel, then how come 20:47 states:

20:47
So go to him and say, 'Indeed, we are messengers of your Lord, so send with us the Children of Israel and do not torment them. We have come to you with a sign from your Lord. And peace will be upon he who follows the guidance.

Why would Moses call Egyptians the Children of Israel when they hadn't even arrived there yet, and how would Pharaoh have known who he was talking about?

The quran doesn't mention the details of how events went on, but i can understand that Pharaoh attacked Israel and captured some of the believers and hence God ordered Moses to go to Pharaoh and ask him to release them.

I can understand that Moses and his brother weren't in Egypt as God ordered them to go to Pharaoh and Moses was worried of doing so which means that they were enemies at that instant.

To prove me wrong, you should show me that Banu Israel was mentioned before the era of Moses in the Quran and an archaeological evidence to confirm that Israel existed before the period of Merneptah.

Then how can you know that the Israelites were in fact Egyptians, or that Pharaoh's plan to kill all the newborns in Egypt came as a result of lobbying from sorcerers?

I may be wrong, that is how it was interpreted but i see no problem in believing that he was a rapist and a murderer.

I think I may have been unclear. It is not surprising that during the reign of Ramses II, no one discussed his crimes. What is surprising, and ubelievable, is that no one after him would have said he attempted a genocide of his own population.

I don't think he was Ramses II but his son Merneptah and also his sons followed him in ruling Egypt so who will dare to record the bad deeds of Merneptah, the same gang.

The fact is that Ramses II was venerated by his people, and held in very high esteem. The same can't be said either of Mubarak or Sisi, or even tyrants like Ivan the Terrible or Nero or Shaka Zulu. There has not been one historian or even scholar to my knowledge who stated what you just said, that Ramses II (assuming he was the Pharaoh of the Quran) attempted an infanticide on a national level of his own people.

If you don't believe it happened then why we have to debate at first place,it should be ended at this point.
Some people believe the holocaust and some others reject it, any debate will be useless and waste of time.

Do you think that only "some" would follow him if there was indeed a nation in which almost everyone was oppressed by massive infanticide?

Whats wrong with that, do you think all the Egyptians were against Mubarak or El sisi and both had killed civilians and if the world not witnessing it then i can guess that they may kill half of their population to keep their ruling.

Are you sure Maurice Bucaille said that he died from drowning, or did he say this about Ramses II? Can you please provide a source to back up your claim?

And I'm sure that you're sure that he did, but i ain't willing to follow your style, just take it or leave it, you can search for it some will agree like me and some will reject it as what you're planning to do, but i have to save your time and mine.

I read my post. Where did I say they were not living in Ancient Egypt? When I said the Habiru fought with the Egyptian armies, I meant to say they fought against them. Notice I said they lived in Canaan (what is now Israel/Palestine) and that they were brought into Egypt as slaves.

And if the Habiru (Jews according to you) fought the Egyptian's army then their nation should be known as Israel if in a case that Israel existed,right

Why that important event not recorded by the Egyptians ? Why Israel only mentioned in the rein of Mernpetah

I look forward to reading the Bucaille quote you cited about him being the Pharaoh of the Quran.

search for Mernpetah and Maurice, then take it or leave it.

If you believe the hypothesis I presented is wrong, then show where my sources are mistaken and/or present a better one, also using historical sources.

No one proved the Habiru to be the Jews of Israel.
Which sources you're talking about ?
It is up to you if you want to assume that your hypothesis is the absolute fact.

Where did I say there was no evidence for Jews in Ancient Egypt? Please show me were I wrote that. Thanks so much.

Assuming that you believe that Jews lived in ancient Egypt since 1500 BC ,then why Israel was recorded only during Mernpetah.

Where did I say they were managing business while they were prisoners and/or slaves?

You said they were slaves and prisoners during the time of Moses, so were they so for hundreds of years and in which date they were freed from slavery.

If you convert to Judaism of course your genetics will not change, but it does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world share the same genetics, different than the genetics of non-Jews. So yes, Judaism is a religion that one can convert to, but at the same time Jews also are an ethnic group.

But the fact is that there are Arab Jews, Indian Jews, Filipino Jews, American Jews, Iranian Jews ..etc

So it was OK to follow distorted religions prior to Islam? When were Judaism and Christianity distorted, and by who?

Prior to Islam,yes
Who distorted religion ?
humans like me and you

Probably a Muslim, or a Jewish Muslim.

It can't be 2 religions, either Muslim or a Jew.

 

[TG123456]

The quran doesn't mention the details of how events went on, but i can understand that Pharaoh attacked Israel and captured some of the believers and hence God ordered Moses to go to Pharaoh and ask him to release them.

I can understand that Moses and his brother weren't in Egypt as God ordered them to go to Pharaoh and Moses was worried of doing so which means that they were enemies at that instant.

Hold on a second. You originally stated that Pharaoh was persecuting the Egyptians, and that they became the children of Israel after they fled to the land of Israel. Did they not come to Israel after the Pharaoh drowned?

To prove me wrong, you should show me that Banu Israel was mentioned before the era of Moses in the Quran and an archaeological evidence to confirm that Israel existed before the period of Merneptah.

Actually, the absence of any such evidence helps serve my point, not yours. A persecuted and hated minority would have been mentioned in the records, especially if they were being persecuted for not worshiping Pharaoh. The fact is that they are only mentioned by Merneptah... who could not have been the Pharaoh of the Quran... because he was Pharaoh only for ten years. Merneptah is the only Pharaoh who mentions the Israelites and claims to have exterminated them during his conquest of Canaan. He nowhere mentioned them being in Egypt as his slaves.

The only Pharaoh who could have successfully fit the Quran's description would have been Ramses II. Yet, unlike Merneptah, he makes no mention whatsoever of the Israelites, even as he made mention of his other enemies.

I may be wrong, that is how it was interpreted but i see no problem in believing that he was a rapist and a murderer.

Then why do you see a problem with the interpretation that the Israelites were a group ethnically distinct from the Egyptians?

I don't think he was Ramses II but his son Merneptah and also his sons followed him in ruling Egypt so who will dare to record the bad deeds of Merneptah, the same gang.

There would be no reason for those after his sons not to mention them. Again, we know that Merneptah could not have been the Pharaoh of the Quran, since he ruled only for ten years.

If you don't believe it happened then why we have to debate at first place,it should be ended at this point.
Some people believe the holocaust and some others reject it, any debate will be useless and waste of time.

I don't believe it happened either the way described in the Bible or Quran. There may have been some other event.

There is much more evidence for the Holocaust than the Exodus.

Whats wrong with that, do you think all the Egyptians were against Mubarak or El sisi and both had killed civilians and if the world not witnessing it then i can guess that they may kill half of their population to keep their ruling.

Did Mubarak or Sisi try to kill the newborn sons of every family in Egypt, or did they limit their horrific persecution only against certain political groups?

And I'm sure that you're sure that he did, but i ain't willing to follow your style, just take it or leave it, you can search for it some will agree like me and some will reject it as what you're planning to do, but i have to save your time and mine.

I read that he stated it was not Ramses II, but Merneptah. The reason he gave was that Ramses II was crippled by arthritis and that Merneptah was killed by trauma to the head which could have came from drowning.

And if the Habiru (Jews according to you) fought the Egyptian's army then their nation should be known as Israel if in a case that Israel existed,right

Not necessarily. They could have been living in Canaan, and formed Israel only later. We have Egyptian records of the Habiru attacking Egyptians in Canaan.

Why that important event not recorded by the Egyptians ? Why Israel only mentioned in the rein of Mernpetah

Probably because Merneptah was the first one who heard of the people of Israel.

search for Mernpetah and Maurice, then take it or leave it.

I did. Maurice said the Merneptah was the Pharaoh who was drowned.
All Wrapped Up in His Work - NYTimes.com
If he was right, it means the Quran is wrong, since the Quran has the Pharaoh presiding for at least 30 years. If he right however it could confirm the Bible's account as partially true, since the author of Exodus made a distinction between the Pharaoh of the Oppression and the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

No one proved the Habiru to be the Jews of Israel.
Which sources you're talking about ?
It is up to you if you want to assume that your hypothesis is the absolute fact.

It is a theory also, I admit. We know that they were a group of people who lived among other parts of the world in Canan (or Israel/Palestine) and who fought against Egyptian armies and were often used as slaves.

Habiru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Assuming that you believe that Jews lived in ancient Egypt since 1500 BC ,then why Israel was recorded only during Mernpetah.

Great question. Perhaps it was that Merneptah was the first Egyptian Pharaoh to learn about them, and he went on to conquer them, or so he claimed.

You said they were slaves and prisoners during the time of Moses, so were they so for hundreds of years and in which date they were freed from slavery.

Sorry, I take that back. From and before the time of Moses, they were a group pf people living in Canaan, who fought Egyptian armies and were occasionally taken as slaves. Perhaps the Israelites and Habiru were the same people, perhaps not.

I don't see how either case saves the Quran from error.

But the fact is that there are Arab Jews, Indian Jews, Filipino Jews, American Jews, Iranian Jews ..etc

Correct, and these converts would be genetically different from most other Jews. However, most Jews do share the same genetic traits, so it is accurate to say that as a majority they are both an ethnic group as well as a religion.

Prior to Islam,yes
Who distorted religion ?
humans like me and you

Thanks for explaining.

It can't be 2 religions, either Muslim or a Jew.

It can't be two religions, but it can be a religion and an ethnic group. You can have a black Muslim and a white Muslim and an Arab Muslim, why not a Jewish Muslim?

 

[FearGod]

Hold on a second. You originally stated that Pharaoh was persecuting the Egyptians, and that they became the children of Israel after they fled to the land of Israel. Did they not come to Israel after the Pharaoh drowned?




Actually, the absence of any such evidence helps serve my point, not yours. A persecuted and hated minority would have been mentioned in the records, especially if they were being persecuted for not worshiping Pharaoh. The fact is that they are only mentioned by Merneptah... who could not have been the Pharaoh of the Quran... because he was Pharaoh only for ten years. Merneptah is the only Pharaoh who mentions the Israelites and claims to have exterminated them during his conquest of Canaan. He nowhere mentioned them being in Egypt as his slaves.

The only Pharaoh who could have successfully fit the Quran's description would have been Ramses II. Yet, unlike Merneptah, he makes no mention whatsoever of the Israelites, even as he made mention of his other enemies.




Then why do you see a problem with the interpretation that the Israelites were a group ethnically distinct from the Egyptians?


There would be no reason for those after his sons not to mention them. Again, we know that Merneptah could not have been the Pharaoh of the Quran, since he ruled only for ten years.


I don't believe it happened either the way described in the Bible or Quran. There may have been some other event.

There is much more evidence for the Holocaust than the Exodus.


Did Mubarak or Sisi try to kill the newborn sons of every family in Egypt, or did they limit their horrific persecution only against certain political groups?


I read that he stated it was not Ramses II, but Merneptah. The reason he gave was that Ramses II was crippled by arthritis and that Merneptah was killed by trauma to the head which could have came from drowning.



Not necessarily. They could have been living in Canaan, and formed Israel only later. We have Egyptian records of the Habiru attacking Egyptians in Canaan.


Probably because Merneptah was the first one who heard of the people of Israel.


I did. Maurice said the Merneptah was the Pharaoh who was drowned.
All Wrapped Up in His Work - NYTimes.com
If he was right, it means the Quran is wrong, since the Quran has the Pharaoh presiding for at least 30 years. If he right however it could confirm the Bible's account as partially true, since the author of Exodus made a distinction between the Pharaoh of the Oppression and the Pharaoh of the Exodus.


It is a theory also, I admit. We know that they were a group of people who lived among other parts of the world in Canan (or Israel/Palestine) and who fought against Egyptian armies and were often used as slaves.

Habiru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Great question. Perhaps it was that Merneptah was the first Egyptian Pharaoh to learn about them, and he went on to conquer them, or so he claimed.


Sorry, I take that back. From and before the time of Moses, they were a group pf people living in Canaan, who fought Egyptian armies and were occasionally taken as slaves. Perhaps the Israelites and Habiru were the same people, perhaps not.

I don't see how either case saves the Quran from error.


Correct, and these converts would be genetically different from most other Jews. However, most Jews do share the same genetic traits, so it is accurate to say that as a majority they are both an ethnic group as well as a religion.


Thanks for explaining.


It can't be two religions, but it can be a religion and an ethnic group. You can have a black Muslim and a white Muslim and an Arab Muslim, why not a Jewish Muslim?

Let me start from point one

The verse of discussion were verse 28:4, you claim the verse to be wrong because factions existed in ancient Egypt and you think factions means making some people poor and some rich, then i made it clear to you that factions between people doesn't mean poor and rich but making division between people according to their beliefs similar to what we see in Iraq nowadays that they made people in factions, one is Sunni and the other is Shia, the leaders supported the shia and neglected the Sunni and thats had led to the born of the ISIS.

If you have an archaeological evidence which proves that factions existed before the Pharaoh of Moses,then let us discuss it.

Regarding Merneptah that he ruled for only 10 years,not correct,his father was very old and many experts believe that Merneptah ruled Egypt long before the death of Ramesses II.

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum, FearGod. I will respond tomorrow or inshAllah a few days.

Take care,
TG123456

 

[TG123456]

Let me start from point one

The verse of discussion were verse 28:4, you claim the verse to be wrong because factions existed in ancient Egypt and you think factions means making some people poor and some rich, then i made it clear to you that factions between people doesn't mean poor and rich but making division between people according to their beliefs similar to what we see in Iraq nowadays that they made people in factions, one is Sunni and the other is Shia, the leaders supported the shia and neglected the Sunni and thats had led to the born of the ISIS.

If you have an archaeological evidence which proves that factions existed before the Pharaoh of Moses,then let us discuss it.

Regarding Merneptah that he ruled for only 10 years,not correct,his father was very old and many experts believe that Merneptah ruled Egypt long before the death of Ramesses II.

Salaam Alaikum, FearGod.

If the Quran's author was indeed talking about religious discrimination and not social, then my objections are proved wrong. The nature of the factions according to the Quran is not anywhere mentioned, and tafsirs I read state this was a discrimination based on race. However, since the Quran's author does not specify, we have no way of knowing.

If social discrimination was not being alluded to, I was wrong and admit my mistake.

It is interesting though that Ramses II, who bragged about his exploits against the Nubians and Libyans and others, failed to mention even once the "Banu Israil" who he hated so much he allegedly tried to kill all their firstborns, two times.

Which experts claim that Merneptah ruled Egypt when Ramses II was still alive? How long did he rule?

 

[FearGod]

Salaam Alaikum, FearGod.

If the Quran's author was indeed talking about religious discrimination and not social, then my objections are proved wrong. The nature of the factions according to the Quran is not anywhere mentioned, and tafsirs I read state this was a discrimination based on race. However, since the Quran's author does not specify, we have no way of knowing.

If social discrimination was not being alluded to, I was wrong and admit my mistake.

It is interesting though that Ramses II, who bragged about his exploits against the Nubians and Libyans and others, failed to mention even once the "Banu Israil" who he hated so much he allegedly tried to kill all their firstborns, two times.

Which experts claim that Merneptah ruled Egypt when Ramses II was still alive? How long did he rule?

Thank you for your sincerity.

I don't think that Ramses did it but his son Merneptah as his father was so old.

Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

 

[TG123456]

Thank you for your sincerity.

I don't think that Ramses did it but his son Merneptah as his father was so old.

Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

Salaam Alaikum, FearGod. It is good to hear from you and no reason to thank me for my sincerity, I think sincerity should be something expected of all. I appreciate your sincerity also.

Thank you for your links, but they both confirm that Merenptah was only Pharaoh for 10 years... too short of a time for the events described in the Quran.

By the time that Ramesses II died, he had apparently outlived twelve of his sons, so it was his 13th son, Merenptah who ascended the throne of Egypt. Merenptah was old himself by this time, probably nearly sixty years old, and his reign was rather dull, as well as short lived (perhaps only nine or ten years) in comparison with that of his father's reign. According to the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, he ruled from 1213 until 1203 BC, while Clayton provides a reign from 1212 until 1202 BC.

Read more: Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

According to your second source, Merenptah was believed to have co-reigned with Ramses II for some 9-10 years before he ascended the throne.

Merenptah (Merneptah "beloved of Ptah) Hetephermaat ("Joyous is truth" or "Ma´at rejoices") was Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt during the nineteenth dynasty (New Kingdom). He was the thirteenth son of Ramesses II by one of his Great Royal Wives, Isetnofret I. Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.

Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

The Quran describes one Pharaoh, not two. Also, if Merenptah ruled for 19 or even 20 years, it would still be too short a time for what is described in the Quran.

According to the Quran, Moses fled after he killed the oppressor and this happened when he was mature. People don't usually mature until they are at least 15-17 years of age. He then spent 10 years in Midian. We don't know how long the plagues lasted in Egypt, but the Quran states "years". The math doesn't add up.

The Pharaoh could not have been Merenptah. It could have only been Ramses II. However, as we know, there is no record about the enslavement of the Israelites, which is surprising considering that Ramses II enjoyed bragging about his conquests of other people.

 

[FearGod]

Salaam Alaikum, FearGod. It is good to hear from you and no reason to thank me for my sincerity, I think sincerity should be something expected of all. I appreciate your sincerity also.

Thank you for your links, but they both confirm that Merenptah was only Pharaoh for 10 years... too short of a time for the events described in the Quran.

By the time that Ramesses II died, he had apparently outlived twelve of his sons, so it was his 13th son, Merenptah who ascended the throne of Egypt. Merenptah was old himself by this time, probably nearly sixty years old, and his reign was rather dull, as well as short lived (perhaps only nine or ten years) in comparison with that of his father's reign. According to the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, he ruled from 1213 until 1203 BC, while Clayton provides a reign from 1212 until 1202 BC.

Read more: Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

According to your second source, Merenptah was believed to have co-reigned with Ramses II for some 9-10 years before he ascended the throne.

Merenptah (Merneptah "beloved of Ptah) Hetephermaat ("Joyous is truth" or "Ma´at rejoices") was Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt during the nineteenth dynasty (New Kingdom). He was the thirteenth son of Ramesses II by one of his Great Royal Wives, Isetnofret I. Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.

Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

The Quran describes one Pharaoh, not two. Also, if Merenptah ruled for 19 or even 20 years, it would still be too short a time for what is described in the Quran.

According to the Quran, Moses fled after he killed the oppressor and this happened when he was mature. People don't usually mature until they are at least 15-17 years of age. He then spent 10 years in Midian. We don't know how long the plagues lasted in Egypt, but the Quran states "years". The math doesn't add up.

The Pharaoh could not have been Merenptah. It could have only been Ramses II. However, as we know, there is no record about the enslavement of the Israelites, which is surprising considering that Ramses II enjoyed bragging about his conquests of other people.

Both sources mentioned that Merneptah ruled during the Ramesses' reign, but how long he ruled during Ramesses is left for guessing, so it can be 10, 15 or 20 we can't be sure since he was 48 years when his father died.

Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

Merenptah is almost completely unknown until the 40th year of Ramesses II's reign. In fact he may have been heir to the throne of Egypt for about twelve years prior to Ramesses II's death, but in Ramesses II's year 40, we known the prince was made General of the Army. Perhaps it is not surprising that what we know of Merenptah's rule is mostly about his military activities. However, he appears not to have become the heir to the throne until Ramesses II's 55th regnal year, when Ramesses II was celebrating his 80th birthday, and Merenptah his 48th. In fact, in the last decade of Ramesses II's life, Merenptah was probably the real power behind the throne, as Ramesses II was well advanced in age
Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

 

[TG123456]

Both sources mentioned that Merneptah ruled during the Ramesses' reign, but how long he ruled during Ramesses is left for guessing, so it can be 10, 15 or 20 we can't be sure since he was 48 years when his father died.

Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

Merenptah is almost completely unknown until the 40th year of Ramesses II's reign. In fact he may have been heir to the throne of Egypt for about twelve years prior to Ramesses II's death, but in Ramesses II's year 40, we known the prince was made General of the Army. Perhaps it is not surprising that what we know of Merenptah's rule is mostly about his military activities. However, he appears not to have become the heir to the throne until Ramesses II's 55th regnal year, when Ramesses II was celebrating his 80th birthday, and Merenptah his 48th. In fact, in the last decade of Ramesses II's life, Merenptah was probably the real power behind the throne, as Ramesses II was well advanced in age
Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

If you read the sources, you will see that they say that Menerptah may have been the ruler during the time of Ramses II. This is not an assertion, it is an assumption.

They state also that he ruled for 10-12 years during the time of Ramses- again, if he ruled during that time, which is something we are just assuming- it would have meant he was on the throne for 10-22 years in total... which is a far shorter time than described in the Quran.

Also, the second source states he became heir to the throne only when Ramses celebrated his 80th birthday. Ramses died at age 90. How could Merenptah have been Pharaoh before he even became heir to the throne of his father?


Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

Merenptah is almost completely unknown until the 40th year of Ramesses II's reign. In fact he may have been heir to the throne of Egypt for about twelve years prior to Ramesses II's death, but in Ramesses II's year 40, we known the prince was made General of the Army. Perhaps it is not surprising that what we know of Merenptah's rule is mostly about his military activities. However, he appears not to have become the heir to the throne until Ramesses II's 55th regnal year, when Ramesses II was celebrating his 80th birthday, and Merenptah his 48th. In fact, in the last decade of Ramesses II's life, Merenptah was probably the real power behind the throne, as Ramesses II was well advanced in age
Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

 

[FearGod]

If you read the sources, you will see that they say that Menerptah may have been the ruler during the time of Ramses II. This is not an assertion, it is an assumption.

They state also that he ruled for 10-12 years during the time of Ramses- again, if he ruled during that time, which is something we are just assuming- it would have meant he was on the throne for 10-22 years in total... which is a far shorter time than described in the Quran.

Also, the second source states he became heir to the throne only when Ramses celebrated his 80th birthday. Ramses died at age 90. How could Merenptah have been Pharaoh before he even became heir to the throne of his father?


Merneptah was probably fairly elderly when he inherited his father's throne (possibly in his sixties) and may even have been the active ruler for some time before ascending to the throne as his father was of an advanced age by this time. Nonetheless, he seems to have reigned for a further nine or ten years. Manetho credits him with e ninteen year reign, but it is generally held that he was including a period of co-regency with Ramesses II.
Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: Merenptah Hetephermaat (Baenre Merynetjeru)

Merenptah is almost completely unknown until the 40th year of Ramesses II's reign. In fact he may have been heir to the throne of Egypt for about twelve years prior to Ramesses II's death, but in Ramesses II's year 40, we known the prince was made General of the Army. Perhaps it is not surprising that what we know of Merenptah's rule is mostly about his military activities. However, he appears not to have become the heir to the throne until Ramesses II's 55th regnal year, when Ramesses II was celebrating his 80th birthday, and Merenptah his 48th. In fact, in the last decade of Ramesses II's life, Merenptah was probably the real power behind the throne, as Ramesses II was well advanced in age
Egypt: Merenptah (Merneptah), the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty

Yes i guess Merneptah was either sleeping on bed or playing in the yard at age of 25.

 

[TG123456]

Yes i guess Merneptah was either sleeping on bed or playing in the yard at age of 25.

Lol are you saying the only options were being Pharaoh or playing on the swing? There were no other things in Ancient Egypt that a Pharaoh's adult son could have been doing?

 

[OurCreed]

Hi, I am going to enter into the conversation here and probably help explain some things regarding this verse.

Here is the verse with a better translation.

[28;4]
"Verily, Pharaoh behaved arrogantly in the earth, and divided the people thereof into parties: he sought to weaken a party of them, slaying their sons, and sparing their women. Certainly, he was of the mischief- makers."

This verse, as you mentioned, isn't saying that the Pharaoh during the time of Moses (as) was the first one to divide the people into different castes and ranks. What this verse most likely is referring to is that, with any new elected leader of a civilization, they are going to choose certain people to be a part of a party, and certain people to be part of another party. The factions/sections of the community already exist, the Pharaoh did not obviously create these factions of the Egyptian people, they already existed before him. But Pharaoh did choose and decide who belongs in which party and who does not.

Here's an example. A man owns a restaurant, he's the owner. Now typically in every restaurant, you have the cooks, the waiters/waitresses, the guys who clean up, the guys who take out the trash, the guys who clean the plates and silverware, etc.

Now the owner of the restaurant did not create these different groups within the restaurant obviously. But he did get to choose which of the people are the cooks, which people are the waiters/waitresses, which clean up, etc.

So same thing with Pharaoh. He divided his people into parties. It also doesn't mention which type of party or division, so whatever division he separated them into, it was by his own doing and choice.

Then the verse continues, stating that the Pharaoh sought to weaken a certain party or division of his choice, and he slayed their sons and spared their women, and he was basically one of the "bad guys."

So hopefully this answers more doubts than creates some. Thanks for reading, peace.

 

[TG123456]

Hi, I am going to enter into the conversation here and probably help explain some things regarding this verse.

Here is the verse with a better translation.

[28;4]
"Verily, Pharaoh behaved arrogantly in the earth, and divided the people thereof into parties: he sought to weaken a party of them, slaying their sons, and sparing their women. Certainly, he was of the mischief- makers."

This verse, as you mentioned, isn't saying that the Pharaoh during the time of Moses (as) was the first one to divide the people into different castes and ranks. What this verse most likely is referring to is that, with any new elected leader of a civilization, they are going to choose certain people to be a part of a party, and certain people to be part of another party. The factions/sections of the community already exist, the Pharaoh did not obviously create these factions of the Egyptian people, they already existed before him. But Pharaoh did choose and decide who belongs in which party and who does not.

Here's an example. A man owns a restaurant, he's the owner. Now typically in every restaurant, you have the cooks, the waiters/waitresses, the guys who clean up, the guys who take out the trash, the guys who clean the plates and silverware, etc.

Now the owner of the restaurant did not create these different groups within the restaurant obviously. But he did get to choose which of the people are the cooks, which people are the waiters/waitresses, which clean up, etc.

So same thing with Pharaoh. He divided his people into parties. It also doesn't mention which type of party or division, so whatever division he separated them into, it was by his own doing and choice.

Then the verse continues, stating that the Pharaoh sought to weaken a certain party or division of his choice, and he slayed their sons and spared their women, and he was basically one of the "bad guys."

So hopefully this answers more doubts than creates some. Thanks for reading, peace.

Thank you for the response.

The Quran seems to be saying that Pharaoh made some people in Egypt into the ruling caste, and others- the Israelites- into slaves and people to be oppressed. That explanation makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is the absence of any historical Ancient Egyptian record of this ever happening. The only Pharaoh who could have fit the Quranic description- Ramses II, liked to boast about invading other countries and taking their people captive. Yet there is not one mention made of the Israelites, who allegedly were separated from their other Egyptian neighbours and enslaved. The first mention is by Menerptah, who claimed to have destroyed them in Canaan. I find that very interesting.

I also find it very interesting that we have no historical records of Ancient Egyptians at any point before getting involved with the Romans- of turning on their citizens and enslaving them because of their religious beliefs or ethnicity.

 

[OurCreed]

Thank you for the response.

No problem.

Yet there is not one mention made of the Israelites, who allegedly were separated from their other Egyptian neighbours and enslaved. The first mention is by Menerptah, who claimed to have destroyed them in Canaan. I find that very interesting.

But how can you be sure of that? The Qur'an uses the words Israelites because the people represent the progeny of prophet Isaac (as), the son of Abraham. The Israelites were the Hebrews who eventually became the 12 tribes of Israel, they are Isaac's progeny. Now God uses the term to describe the people of Pharaoh as Israelites, even though the verse in question at the moment doesn't mention that, it just mentions that Pharaoh divided his people and did cruel things. Historical references may not refer to the people as 'Israelites' but with different titles.

In the end, we cannot say much because there is not a whole lot of historical evidence of the ancient Egyptian civilizations compared to more recent events. We did find the body of Ramses II, and with the high concentration of salt found within the greatly preserved body, that is evidence that the body was drowned, which supports the Qur'anic prophesy that God will preserve the body of Pharaoh.

The Qur'an mentions many evil people and nations, but never once did the Qur'an say that these people will be preserved for people in te

I also find it very interesting that we have no historical records of Ancient Egyptians at any point before getting involved with the Romans- of turning on their citizens and enslaving them because of their religious beliefs or ethnicity.

So is this not the reason why you cannot find out about the Israelites?

 

[TG123456]

But how can you be sure of that? The Qur'an uses the words Israelites because the people represent the progeny of prophet Isaac (as), the son of Abraham. The Israelites were the Hebrews who eventually became the 12 tribes of Israel, they are Isaac's progeny. Now God uses the term to describe the people of Pharaoh as Israelites, even though the verse in question at the moment doesn't mention that, it just mentions that Pharaoh divided his people and did cruel things. Historical references may not refer to the people as 'Israelites' but with different titles.

We do have many references from Ancient Egypt about who the country's enemies were. We know about his campaigns against the Syrians and Canaanites and Libya.
Ramses II | biography - king of Egypt :: Military exploits | Encyclopedia Britannica

The Israelites also are mentioned by name- yet not by Ramses II, but his son, Merneptah. Why would Merneptah, not Ramses II, have been the first to mention them?

In the end, we cannot say much because there is not a whole lot of historical evidence of the ancient Egyptian civilizations compared to more recent events. We did find the body of Ramses II, and with the high concentration of salt found within the greatly preserved body, that is evidence that the body was drowned, which supports the Qur'anic prophesy that God will preserve the body of Pharaoh.

The Qur'an mentions many evil people and nations, but never once did the Qur'an say that these people will be preserved for people in te

Salt was used in mummification by Ancient Egyptians, as a preservative. A high concentration of salt found within the greatly preserved body was proof not of drowning but of mummification.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explor...cts/aes/l/linen_bag_of_salt_for_mummific.aspx

So is this not the reason why you cannot find out about the Israelites?

Perhaps this is proof that mass infanticide and slavery of the Israelites never happened.