Question about jesus

[mindlight]

King Solomon was known for having godly wisdom according to 1 Kings 3:16-28.
So, it should come as No surprise that at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that Solomon wrote that the dead know nothing.
That is in harmony with the Psalms such as Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
This is also why Isaiah at Isaiah 38:18 also believed those in the grave can Not praise God.
So, the day Jesus died he was Not resurrected. Jesus was in the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
Jesus was asleep in the grave for days before his God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hades (grave).
Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14 then Jesus was in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures.

I find 1 Peter 3:18 is talking about the resurrected (alive) spirit Jesus who was resurrected days after he died.
Thus, the resurrected spirit Jesus spoke to those bad spirits of 1 Peter 3:19-20.
They are the fallen spirits, or fallen angels according to 2 Peter 2:4-5; Jude 1:6
By appearing to those devils then they knew Jesus was resurrected and destruction awaits them.

1 Peter 3:18-21 puts the preaching of Christ to the spirits between the brackets of his death and of his resurrection. The co-text seems a clear reference to his time in the grave.

Soul sleep is also challenged by other NT verses: Rev 6:9-11; Luke 16:22-31; Luke 9:30

What Solomon and the prophets longed to know but did not see fully was revealed in Christ.

 

[YoursTrue]

That depends on if you believe the Bible. In the very early part of the Bible there is no "heaven or hell" scenario mentioned for human beings. There is only life and death. God's people did not believe that they lived on after death because God never told them that they would. It was the devil who told the woman she would not die. He lied.

Adam was not told about heaven or hell. He was already in Paradise here on earth, so the only way to die and lose that paradise was to disobey one simple command.

1 Timothy 2:14...."...Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor."

The woman fell for the deceit, but the man did not. So we have both disobeying God and suffering the eventual death penalty, but for different reasons.



Some people think that Jesus' resurrection was in a physical body, though a different kind of body. That is not what Peter said....

At 1 Peter 3:18.....he said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but.....made alive in the spirit." Meaning that his fleshly body, offered in sacrifice to God, was no more. He was resurrected in a spiritual body......one capable of materializing at will. Angels too had this ability. They appeared in human form as messengers when God wanted to convey his will to his earthly servants. Once their mission was complete, they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.

Jesus only "appeared" to his disciples after his resurrection, he did not take up residence with them again, as he had for three and a half years as their constant companion.

There is no life after death except by resurrection. That is what the majority of mankind will experience. Jesus will call them from their graves to be reunited with their families, but not until he returns as king and has defeated all opposers. (John 5:28-29)
This is what Jesus demonstrated when he resurrected the dead in the first century. His friend Lazarus was one example.
Where was Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life? Jesus said he was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14) There was no recollection on Lazarus' part of being anywhere. He would have awoken wondering why he was bound up in grave wrappings.

You bring up some interesting points. Yes, a person cannot rise up to heaven in a physical human body, no matter how religious he may be.

 

[YoursTrue]

1 Peter 3:18-21 puts the preaching of Christ to the spirits between the brackets of his death and of his resurrection. The co-text seems a clear reference to his time in the grave.

Soul sleep is also challenged by other NT verses: Rev 6:9-11; Luke 16:22-31; Luke 9:30

What Solomon and the prophets longed to know but did not see fully was revealed in Christ.

Jesus said Lazarus is sleeping. Did he mean he wasn't sleeping?

 

[YoursTrue]

As I said earlier, parables employ concepts familiar to the audience. Luke 16 portrays reward and punishment immediately after death. If that were not familiar to the audience – both disciples and Pharisees – the story would fall flat and no one would be able to make heads or tails out of it. But because it refers to a major work in the popular apocalyptic literature of the time, they would understand the reference. Whether everyone agreed with it is irrelevant. This is Luke’s take on the matter.

The NT is full of afterlife reward/punishment scenarios. They do not all agree. If you say that Jesus would not have taught about heaven and hell because it is not in the OT, then we have to throw out a whole lot of the NT as fake.

BTW the idea of reward or punishment immediately after death is part of Jewish thought as expressed in the Mishnah and presumably essentially that of the Pharisees of the time of Jesus.

“It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death.”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com



So? What is the inspired word of God? The KJV, Luther’s Bible, the books agreed on at Carthage and Hippo at the end of the 4th century? Is the Septuagint inspired? The writers of the NT used it. And that includes Judith which as I previously quoted talks about eternal punishment for the wicked.



That is a convenient way of ignoring anything you find inconvenient.


It is Revelation that refers to the lake of fire. I have already quoted a reference in Revelation to eternal punishment for people. The phrase ‘death and Hades’ appears several times in Revelation. Hades is simply how one says Sheol in Greek. Death and Hades are essentially the same thing. When death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, it shows that there is no longer any place where the dead await final judgment. It is either heaven or the lake. And as seen in Revelation 14

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 19 states that the fire in the lake of fire is burning sulfur.

20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Those thrown into the lake of fire are not annihilated. Their torment will go on day and night forever and ever. If they get just get annihilated, why bother resurrecting them at all?



I have already linked above to the concept of Gehenna as it was perceived by the Jews who wrote the Mishnah in the 2nd century when the traditions of the Pharisees were first written down. It was hell, a place of punishment for the dead sinner.




The Aramaic Targums embodied the ideas of the common people. As I have shown in earlier posts, this included the idea of permanent punishment in the afterlife for the unrighteous. It was the common people who followed Jesus. It was an apocalyptic-minded age when feelings against the occupying Romans were rising, eventually leading to the bloody and unsuccessful Jewish Revolt. The common people, who suffered the most, would want the bad guys to burn in hell forever, starting right away. Living high on the hog by oppressing the lower classes gets you oblivion without suffering? Is that supposed to redress the historic imbalance? According to almost all of the OT, that is the way it is going to be anyway, whether you are on the top or the bottom. Why would the suffering underdogs be happy with that? Roasting the bad guys forever? Now you’re talking.

Even criminals can change. That roasting idea taken in a literal sense is ridiculous.

 

[YoursTrue]

That depends on if you believe the Bible. In the very early part of the Bible there is no "heaven or hell" scenario mentioned for human beings. There is only life and death.

I agree. If there was more to the mandate God gave them, He would have told them.

 

[Deeje]

You bring up some interesting points. Yes, a person cannot rise up to heaven in a physical human body, no matter how religious he may be.

The apostle Paul explained it this way about the heavenly resurrection....(this resurrection is only for those with "the heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1)

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.. . . .But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."

The Bible says that those chosen to be 'kings and priests' (Revelation 20:6) in that heavenly kingdom will be raised "first", with the same kind of spiritual body that Jesus had.
This is not the kind of resurrection that the majority of mankind will experience however. There is a 'general' resurrection for those whom Jesus said would "inherit the earth". (John 5:28-29)

All who dies in the past must "sleep in death" awaiting Christ's second coming, before they are resurrected. But some who live at the time of Christ's coming, will be changed instantaneously, not ever having to spend time in the grave at all.

Most in Christendom do not know what this means because they have been taught that all Christians are Heaven bound. But Heaven is not where God put humans as some kind of training ground for future life in Heaven.....and if you read Genesis there was no natural cause of death in Eden. So humans were created to live forever right here on earth. It was designed to sustain our lives for eternity. If Adam had never sinned, he never would have died, and there would have been no sin for his children to inherit. (Romans 5:12) There is a big difference between 'immortality' and 'everlasting life'. Most people think they are the same, but just like the 'soul' and the 'spirit', they are two entirely different things.

I agree. If there was more to the mandate God gave them, He would have told them.

The Bible's scenario is so misunderstood IMO. That small test in the garden of Eden had monstrous consequences. It derailed God's first purpose, (temporarily) but he allowed plenty of time for all contingencies to be worked out in case free will was abused. Free will is not free if we can't make choices....even the wrong ones. In the Bible, God responds to man's choices...he never makes the choices for them.
What mankind lost in Eden, God would restore by providing a ransomer to pay the debt Adam left for his children. Jesus blood paid it in full for all of us.
Only those who willingly accept the terms of the ransom will benefit from it.

I was raised with Christendom's version of events and it never made a lick of sense to me until I actually studied the Bible for myself. Once you lose the church's version of events, it all starts to make sense and you can see clearly where the devil has misled so many.

 

[YoursTrue]

The apostle Paul explained it this way about the heavenly resurrection....(this resurrection is only for those with "the heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1)

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.. . . .But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."

The Bible says that those chosen to be 'kings and priests' (Revelation 20:6) in that heavenly kingdom will be raised "first", with the same kind of spiritual body that Jesus had.
This is not the kind of resurrection that the majority of mankind will experience however. There is a 'general' resurrection for those whom Jesus said would "inherit the earth". (John 5:28-29)

All who dies in the past must "sleep in death" awaiting Christ's second coming, before they are resurrected. But some who live at the time of Christ's coming, will be changed instantaneously, not ever having to spend time in the grave at all.

Most in Christendom do not know what this means because they have been taught that all Christians are Heaven bound. But Heaven is not where God put humans as some kind of training ground for future life in Heaven.....and if you read Genesis there was no natural cause of death in Eden. So humans were created to live forever right here on earth. It was designed to sustain our lives for eternity. If Adam had never sinned, he never would have died, and there would have been no sin for his children to inherit. (Romans 5:12) There is a big difference between 'immortality' and 'everlasting life'. Most people think they are the same, but just like the 'soul' and the 'spirit', they are two entirely different things.



The Bible's scenario is so misunderstood IMO. That small test in the garden of Eden had monstrous consequences. It derailed God's first purpose, (temporarily) but he allowed plenty of time for all contingencies to be worked out in case free will was abused. Free will is not free if we can't make choices....even the wrong ones. In the Bible, God responds to man's choices...he never makes the choices for them.
What mankind lost in Eden, God would restore by providing a ransomer to pay the debt Adam left for his children. Jesus blood paid it in full for all of us.
Only those who willingly accept the terms of the ransom will benefit from it.

I was raised with Christendom's version of events and it never made a lick of sense to me until I actually studied the Bible for myself. Once you lose the church's version of events, it all starts to make sense and you can see clearly where the devil has misled so many.

The subject of free will is interesting indeed. I can have free will to jump off a roof, but most persons would agree I would probably get hurt.

 

[Deeje]

The subject of free will is interesting indeed. I can have free will to jump off a roof, but most persons would agree I would probably get hurt.

Free will is not entirely free because right from the start, God put limits on it. Satan took those limits and suggested that they were not fair. He insinuated that God was holding back something to which the humans were entitled. The woman thought it sounded reasonable, but propaganda always does. The devil has an agenda that has never changed. He still encourages free will without constraints. It never works for the good of anyone. Every horrible event perpetrated by humans has the abuse of free will at the base of it. If we don't apply the limits set by God, nothing good will be accomplished in anything we try.

You can jump off a roof but the fact that you may not survive the fall, or that you may be permanently disabled, stops you from doing it. Free will carries with it imagined consequences, usually based on the unfortunate experience of others. The first humans had no such experience to draw on, so they needed to obey the one who knew better than they did. Which is why children have parents....its why God is called our Father.

Not everyone has the ability to imagine consequences happening to themselves...they always happen to other people......don't they?

What are your thoughts on free will?

 

[Native]

Does a human "wake up from the dead and goes to heaven"?

The very story of a personal and historic Jesus is nonsense and if taking this story literary, we can go on forever looking at biblical references of what we think is a real personal story, which in fact it is not.

We have several other cultural mythical/religious tellings which fits the description of a hero who hangs on a cross, dies, goes to hell, resurrects and fly to heaven as told the mythical term of Dying and Rising God

This mythical term describes an ASTRONOMIC MOTION where a male-looking star constellation (or the Milky Way figure) constitutes the entire motion on the night Sky.

The Christian heritage have lost almost everything about the astronomical/mythical contents and the rest have become personalized interpretations which just distort the entire story into plain belief matters.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1 Peter 3:18-21 puts the preaching of Christ to the spirits between the brackets of his death and of his resurrection. The co-text seems a clear reference to his time in the grave.
Soul sleep is also challenged by other NT verses: Rev 6:9-11; Luke 16:22-31; Luke 9:30
What Solomon and the prophets longed to know but did not see fully was revealed in Christ.

Since Luke 16 is a parable illustrative story it is Not anything else but one of Jesus' illustrations.
Also, I find the 'transfiguration' (Luke 9:28-34) is a 'VISION' and Not a real happening as per Matthew 17:9.
Jesus instructed them to tell the 'VISION' to No one at that time.

Jesus was made alive on his Resurrection Day, Not before he was resurrected.
1 Peter 3:18-22; 2 Peter 2:4-5; Jude 1:6.
Jesus 'ascended' to heaven at the time of Acts of the Apostles 1:9 Not before that.
Revelation was written way after Jesus was resurrected. Revelation was written at the end of the first century.
Revelation was written for our day or time frame.
Revelation 6:9-11 is about those martyrs (should rest) resting (sleeping) in their graves.
These martyrs are part of the first or earlier resurrection to heaven as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10.
That resurrection did Not take place in the first century, but at the time of Revelation (Revelation 1:5) happening.

I find Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5 is in harmony with Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Does a human "wake up from the dead and goes to heaven"?

No, I find in Scripture that a human does Not wake up from the dead and go anywhere.
Even dead Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died, but days later when his God resurrected Jesus.
'Going to heaven at death' is a religious-myth teaching just taught as being Scripture but is Not Scripture.
The ' dead know nothing ' as per Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 and John 11:11-14.
The unconscious dead know nothing but sleep. That is why Jesus likened death to deep sleep.
The ' wake up and goes to heaven ' is an ' afterlife ' teaching. Teaching more alive at death than before death.
Whereas, the Bible teaches resurrection. God gave Jesus resurrection's power - Revelation 1:18.
Yes, some people are resurrected to heaven who are part of a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
However, the majority of people will have a later resurrection back to live a physical life on Earth.
That includes those who 'died before Jesus died', even King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34; John 3:13.
This is why the ' future tense ' is used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection..... - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

Besides resurrection, the Bible teaches about a soon coming ' time of separating ' to take place on Earth among the living. At this separating time people counted as figurative humble 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the first day of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
- Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The subject of free will is interesting indeed. I can have free will to jump off a roof, but most persons would agree I would probably get hurt.

I find we are all free to act responsibly toward God, and jumping off a roof would Not be a responsible act.

 

[YoursTrue]

Free will is not entirely free because right from the start, God put limits on it. Satan took those limits and suggested that they were not fair. He insinuated that God was holding back something to which the humans were entitled. The woman thought it sounded reasonable, but propaganda always does. The devil has an agenda that has never changed. He still encourages free will without constraints. It never works for the good of anyone. Every horrible event perpetrated by humans has the abuse of free will at the base of it. If we don't apply the limits set by God, nothing good will be accomplished in anything we try.

You can jump off a roof but the fact that you may not survive the fall, or that you may be permanently disabled, stops you from doing it. Free will carries with it imagined consequences, usually based on the unfortunate experience of others. The first humans had no such experience to draw on, so they needed to obey the one who knew better than they did. Which is why children have parents....its why God is called our Father.

Not everyone has the ability to imagine consequences happening to themselves...they always happen to other people......don't they?

What are your thoughts on free will?

Many are not taught right from wrong. Yes, there are limits. Eve knew she shouldn't have eaten from that tree imo. Some think she didn't know. She did know. She was, however, deceived by cunning to think it was ok even though she was told not to. I saw a sign on a church today that said Jesus ate with sinners and welcomed them. It seems many commit sins and the church doesn't teach them right from wrong, or what the Bible says. They just tell them it's all ok.

 

[YoursTrue]

I find we are all free to act responsibly toward God, and jumping off a roof would Not be a responsible act.

Agreed. That may be one reason Jesus refused Satan's invite to throw himself off the cliff. Jesus did not want to test Jehovah. Good point to think about.

 

[YoursTrue]

I find we are all free to act responsibly toward God, and jumping off a roof would Not be a responsible act.

Speaking of which, if someone doesn't know which way is pleasing to God, then what?

 

[The Anointed]

No, I find in Scripture that a human does Not wake up from the dead and go anywhere.
Even dead Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died, but days later when his God resurrected Jesus.
'Going to heaven at death' is a religious-myth teaching just taught as being Scripture but is Not Scripture.
The ' dead know nothing ' as per Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 and John 11:11-14.
The unconscious dead know nothing but sleep. That is why Jesus likened death to deep sleep.
The ' wake up and goes to heaven ' is an ' afterlife ' teaching. Teaching more alive at death than before death.
Whereas, the Bible teaches resurrection. God gave Jesus resurrection's power - Revelation 1:18.
Yes, some people are resurrected to heaven who are part of a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
However, the majority of people will have a later resurrection back to live a physical life on Earth.
That includes those who 'died before Jesus died', even King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34; John 3:13.
This is why the ' future tense ' is used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection..... - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

Besides resurrection, the Bible teaches about a soon coming ' time of separating ' to take place on Earth among the living. At this separating time people counted as figurative humble 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the first day of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
- Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

I find the satirical writings of Solomon, which are found in the Book of Ecclesiastes really interesting, don’t you?

From the book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of proverbs, his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those people of the godless religion, who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead. Poor souls, don’t they realise that what the mind believes, is what the mind receives.

Isaiah 57: 1-2; (1) Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die, no calamity can hurt them. (2) Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

All must die once, then go off into judgement, where the righteous spirits are divided from the unrighteous, these find rest and are gathered to the evolving spirit of 'The Son of Man,' within the bosom of Abraham.

For just as mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution and is currently the Most High in the creation, had developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, 'The Son of Man,' who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is still developing within the great androgynous body of man.

Although scripture reveals that those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death as they await their resurrection, it also reveals the state of torment that awaits the wicked spirits=minds that had suffered the first death which was that of the physical wombs/bodies in which they had developed, as they await the final judgement, when they shall enter into a state of total oblivion. Only the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet suffer eternal torment as revealed in Rev 20: 10.

Revelation 21: 8; But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars ----- the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

The second death, when those minds are divided from the eternal soul/life-force, that pervades and animates all within this boundless cosmos.

Psalms 146: 4; don't put your faith in the plans of men for their plans die with them. It's hard to accomplish your plans without a physical body.

 

[Deeje]

Many are not taught right from wrong. Yes, there are limits. Eve knew she shouldn't have eaten from that tree imo. Some think she didn't know. She did know. She was, however, deceived by cunning to think it was ok even though she was told not to

She, was targeted because she was the least experienced of the two....and she was alone. (very calculated) The devil always takes advantage of youth and inexperience because it works for him. Adam had been around quite a while before God created a mate for him. He was training him and educating him in preparation for becoming a husband and father. He had waited a long time for a wife and was obviously besotted by her....so when he saw that she had eaten the fruit, his heart would have broken. She was deceived by the devil but Adam wasn't. He joined his wife knowing that he was also signing his own death warrant.

What he may not have understood is how the penalty was to be implemented. Death did not overtake them straight away, but spiritually, they died that day....separating themselves from God. Physically they would begin to age and start to succumb to sickness and the propensity to sin would have dogged their lives daily. Cast out of the garden that was their paradise home, they no longer had access to "the tree of life" which meant that there was nothing to keep them from dying. Add to that, outside the garden the ground was cursed, so just providing food would have been a challenge. Instead of their ready diet of fruit, they now had to learn how to grow grain to make bread. (Genesis 3:19) The land would not have cooperated with that, so hard labor was now required to even eat. The consequences of their sin were somehow genetic, because it has been passed down from parent to child ever since. (Romans 5:12)

Do you know how the devil came to be there in the first place? I always wondered about that, so when I found out, it made sense.

. I saw a sign on a church today that said Jesus ate with sinners and welcomed them. It seems many commit sins and the church doesn't teach them right from wrong, or what the Bible says. They just tell them it's all ok.

Yes, it seems as if the whole "grace" thing has been all bent out of shape. Jesus did not eat with sinners because he condoned their lifestyle. He appealed to receptive hearts to leave their sins behind and begin a new life. It appears as if some want their cake and eat it too. Jesus said to "go and sin no more". But some churches teach "once saved always saved" but that is not what Jesus taught. We can lose our salvation just as easily as Adam and his wife did, by simply disobeying God's commands.

If the churches did what is recommended in the scriptures, they would not allow those who practice sin openly and unashamedly to remain an accepted part of their congregations. In Christianity, there was to be discipline administered and a person removed if they failed to repent and change their ways.

As Paul wrote......"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Imagine if the clergy did that today....! There would be howls of "discrimination"! Yet those who lead are to correct and teach those who are in their care. (Hebrews 13:17) We are to submit to them when they teach from God's word.

Why do you think they refrain from correcting those they are supposed to shepherd?

 

[YoursTrue]

The apostle Paul explained it this way about the heavenly resurrection....(this resurrection is only for those with "the heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1)

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.. . . .But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."

The Bible says that those chosen to be 'kings and priests' (Revelation 20:6) in that heavenly kingdom will be raised "first", with the same kind of spiritual body that Jesus had.
This is not the kind of resurrection that the majority of mankind will experience however. There is a 'general' resurrection for those whom Jesus said would "inherit the earth". (John 5:28-29)

All who dies in the past must "sleep in death" awaiting Christ's second coming, before they are resurrected. But some who live at the time of Christ's coming, will be changed instantaneously, not ever having to spend time in the grave at all.

Most in Christendom do not know what this means because they have been taught that all Christians are Heaven bound. But Heaven is not where God put humans as some kind of training ground for future life in Heaven.....and if you read Genesis there was no natural cause of death in Eden. So humans were created to live forever right here on earth. It was designed to sustain our lives for eternity. If Adam had never sinned, he never would have died, and there would have been no sin for his children to inherit. (Romans 5:12) There is a big difference between 'immortality' and 'everlasting life'. Most people think they are the same, but just like the 'soul' and the 'spirit', they are two entirely different things.



The Bible's scenario is so misunderstood IMO. That small test in the garden of Eden had monstrous consequences. It derailed God's first purpose, (temporarily) but he allowed plenty of time for all contingencies to be worked out in case free will was abused. Free will is not free if we can't make choices....even the wrong ones. In the Bible, God responds to man's choices...he never makes the choices for them.
What mankind lost in Eden, God would restore by providing a ransomer to pay the debt Adam left for his children. Jesus blood paid it in full for all of us.
Only those who willingly accept the terms of the ransom will benefit from it.

I was raised with Christendom's version of events and it never made a lick of sense to me until I actually studied the Bible for myself. Once you lose the church's version of events, it all starts to make sense and you can see clearly where the devil has misled so many.

In a way, He did choose when He gave them that simple command: not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He decided what was bad for them. Eve was deceived by false reasoning. But she still decided to go against God's instruction. As well as her husband's instruction. As if she knew better.

She, was targeted because she was the least experienced of the two....and she was alone. (very calculated) The devil always takes advantage of youth and inexperience because it works for him. Adam had been around quite a while before God created a mate for him. He was training him and educating him in preparation for becoming a husband and father. He had waited a long time for a wife and was obviously besotted by her....so when he saw that she had eaten the fruit, his heart would have broken. She was deceived by the devil but Adam wasn't. He joined his wife knowing that he was also signing his own death warrant.

What he may not have understood is how the penalty was to be implemented. Death did not overtake them straight away, but spiritually, they died that day....separating themselves from God. Physically they would begin to age and start to succumb to sickness and the propensity to sin would have dogged their lives daily. Cast out of the garden that was their paradise home, they no longer had access to "the tree of life" which meant that there was nothing to keep them from dying. Add to that, outside the garden the ground was cursed, so just providing food would have been a challenge. Instead of their ready diet of fruit, they now had to learn how to grow grain to make bread. (Genesis 3:19) The land would not have cooperated with that, so hard labor was now required to even eat. The consequences of their sin were somehow genetic, because it has been passed down from parent to child ever since. (Romans 5:12)

Do you know how the devil came to be there in the first place? I always wondered about that, so when I found out, it made sense.



Yes, it seems as if the whole "grace" thing has been all bent out of shape. Jesus did not eat with sinners because he condoned their lifestyle. He appealed to receptive hearts to leave their sins behind and begin a new life. It appears as if some want their cake and eat it too. Jesus said to "go and sin no more". But some churches teach "once saved always saved" but that is not what Jesus taught. We can lose our salvation just as easily as Adam and his wife did, by simply disobeying God's commands.

If the churches did what is recommended in the scriptures, they would not allow those who practice sin openly and unashamedly to remain an accepted part of their congregations. In Christianity, there was to be discipline administered and a person removed if they failed to repent and change their ways.

As Paul wrote......"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Imagine if the clergy did that today....! There would be howls of "discrimination"! Yet those who lead are to correct and teach those who are in their care. (Hebrews 13:17) We are to submit to them when they teach from God's word.

Why do you think they refrain from correcting those they are supposed to shepherd?

I was thinking about that. Imagine how people would react if they heard that scripture in church.

 

[Deeje]

In a way, He did choose when He gave them that simple command: not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He decided what was bad for them. Eve was deceived by false reasoning. But she still decided to go against God's instruction. As well as her husband's instruction. As if she knew better.

That is why the tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad". I have heard people simply refer to it as "the tree of knowledge" as if they didn't know anything and the tree was something that would give them knowledge. That is what the devil implied...that they would be like God, "knowing good and bad" for themselves. What that meant in essence was that God placed the distinction between the two in his own jurisdiction. God would decide what was good and bad for them. We see that after the fall, deciding between good and bad became increasingly more difficult. Today both terms have been turned on their ear. What is good is bad and what is bad is good. We would have been so much better off if our parents had simply obeyed. Its all God has ever asked of us.

I was thinking about that. Imagine how people would react if they heard that scripture in church.

This is how you tell the true Christians from the false ones, (the wheat from the weeds.) True Christians will follow the teachings of Christ and his apostles regardless of what people think. We don't dictate our preferred standards to God....he is the one who dictates them to us. It is a waste of time claiming to be Christian if you fail to follow what Christ taught. (Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 6:46)

 

[YoursTrue]

In luke 23:46 it says jesus committed his spirit to God.Why would jesus care what happened to his spirit if he knew he was just going to sleep like in ecc 9:5?Why would he have to direct his spirit?I am confused.

That still doesn't answer the question of why jesus said i commit my spirit into your hands.It kind of reminds me of the prayer little kids say when they go to sleep."If i should die before i wake i pray the lord my soul he will take".Also if jesus knew he would soul sleep why would he care were his spirit energy went in the first place?

Is it possible he was in fear he might not wake up? Or was he making an affirmative statement of love?