Question about jesus

[YoursTrue]

Let me here repeat for your benefit.

I find the satirical writings of Solomon, which are found in the Book of Ecclesiastes really interesting, don’t you?

From the book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘Song of Songs,’ his parables are found in his book of proverbs, his dark speeches are in the ‘Wisdom of Solomon,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the satirical work of Solomon, aimed at those people of the godless religion, who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead. Poor souls, don’t they realise that what the mind believes, is what the mind receives.

Isaiah 57: 1-2; (1) Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die, no calamity can hurt them. (2) Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

All must die once, then go off into judgement, where the righteous spirits are divided from the unrighteous, these find rest and are gathered to the evolving spirit of 'The Son of Man,' within the bosom of Abraham.

For just as mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution and is currently the Most High in the creation, had developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, 'The Son of Man,' who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is still developing within the great androgynous body of man.

Although scripture reveals that those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death as they await their resurrection, it also reveals the state of torment that awaits the wicked spirits=minds that had suffered the first death which was that of the physical wombs/bodies in which they had developed, as they await the final judgement, when they shall enter into a state of total oblivion. Only the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet suffer eternal torment as revealed in Rev 20: 10.

Revelation 21: 8; But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars ----- the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

The second death, when those minds are divided from the eternal soul/life-force, that pervades and animates all within this boundless cosmos.

Psalms 146: 4; don't put your faith in the plans of men for their plans die with them. It's hard to accomplish your plans without a physical body.

So please explain your view point about a possible resurrection for yourself. (Or others.)

 

[YoursTrue]

Presumed by who?
By YOU?

365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, who was taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation at the age of 365 is the unblemished Lamb of God.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" (The Son of God) resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

The great flood, in which the body of Adam (Pre-flood mankind) was submerged in water and the new man Enoch (The post-flood body of mankind arose) was, according to 1st Peter 3: 21; a symbol of Baptism. Where the old physical man Adam, is submerged and the new spiritual man Enoch/Jesus arises.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all direct genetic descendants of Enoch, the only man redeemed from the previous world as spoken of by 2nd Peter 3: 5; as they are all descendants of Enoch’s six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion, and Giadad.

To equate the MAN Enoch, with the glorious simulacrum at the ends of time, who Enoch had become and who dies in the process of involution for the salvation of we in the process of evolution, would be like equating mankind with the organic molecules in the primeval sludge pools of organic material of the junior earth from which mankind had evolved.

It was the glorious simulacrum, ‘The Son of Man’ at the ends of time, (Of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone) who, unlike physical mankind did not have the powers of reproduction, who, from the ends of time, mentally descended into the day of Abraham, who chose him as his God, and in Abraham, was the living evolving spirit of Enoch as he was at that point in his evolution.

It was to Abraham, that the MOST HIGH in the creation, [The lesser Jahweh the Son of God] said, "In blessing I will bless you and in multiplying, I will multiply you." Our Saviour who offers up his immortal body for those who believe, multiplies by releasing the spirits on which he had evolved.

From that day forward, all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham. Over they, the second death had no power.

Jesus was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom death had no more power. Jesus was who Enoch had become at that point in time of his evolution to become the glorious simulacrum=blue-print of the new androgynous body of light beings that evolve from mankind, who will dwell on earth among mankind.

The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

After Enoch in his ascension to the ends of time, had been in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) he was reborn on earth and revealed as the man Jesus in who were the spirits of the righteous over whom death had no more power. All must die once, even the righteous, but over them, the second death has no power.

1st Peter 1: 19-21; but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but which world? The previous world that was destroyed by water, or this world which is destined to be destroyed by fire?

2 Peter 3: 5; "They purposely ignore the fact that long ago God gave a command, and the heavens and earth were created. The earth formed out of water and by water, and it was also by water, the water of the flood that the old world was destroyed. But the heavens and earth that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire, etc.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (I Am Who I Am/JHWH,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.”

I don't believe the Kabbalah (or the book of Enoch) is a word of God. Who says they are?

 

[YoursTrue]

You read like a theology student scared of the opinion of a liberal professor. Parables connected to realities and revealed simple truths. The more we allegorise their meaning the less clear the meaning. The straightforward interpretation of a literal heaven and a literal hell between which an impassable gulf is fixed is the context which Jesus affirms in Luke 16.

There is no reason in the text to suspect that the transfiguration did not happen as described.



Preaching in his spirit while dead and being raised to the fullness of his glorified resurrected body to life are not incompatible or contradictory.



As God He never left heaven, as man his journey back to heaven started in Acts 1:9. Preaching to the spirits of the dead occurred in Hades.



Revelation was written by John who was an eyewitness to the life of Christ and of His words within a generation of Christs death.



That reads like an attempt to force an interpretative framework on the text. The straightforward reading is of disembodied spirits waiting for justice.



Maybe but Solomon only had a limited vision compared to a NT Christian.

As God he never left heaven? How many persons are there in your God?

 

[Deeje]

find the satirical writings of Solomon, which are found in the Book of Ecclesiastes really interesting, don’t you?

I find the whole Bible interesting and when questions arise, allowing the scriptures themselves to answer provides proof of its internal harmony.

From the book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Solomon was unique as ruler in Israel because he was blessed with Godly wisdom and his writings manifest a deep understanding of the futility of this life. If this is all there is, what is the point of it?

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

Solomon often lamented about the many ways that this life results in futility. Why work hard if all you have worked for will be passed on to those who do not appreciate your efforts enough to even value them? We are no better off than the animals because death overtakes all of us....but in the beginning, this was not the case. Humans were designed to live forever in mortal flesh on earth. God provided the means...but when they disobeyed, those means were taken away until his will was accomplished here.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

"Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.

All must die once, then go off into judgement, where the righteous spirits are divided from the unrighteous, these find rest and are gathered to the evolving spirit of 'The Son of Man,' within the bosom of Abraham.

Where will I find this idea in scripture? This is not what the Bible teaches.
When Christ is earths ruler, then all the dead are called from their graves....."both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29) Only after their resurrection are they judged. The unrighteous ones are given a period of judgment, many being educated in God's ways for the first time.
The wicked however, are not resurrected. They remain in eternal death. God has no reason or desire to keep the wicked alive, nor to torture them.

It is good to reflect on God's laws to his people....there were no prisons or torture prescribed by God for any crime committed. Capital crimes had the death penalty which meant that those guilty would never commit another offense. Those whose victims suffered loss were compensated by the perpetrator. It was a very fair system. God has no reason to torture anyone.

For just as mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution and is currently the Most High in the creation, had developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, 'The Son of Man,' who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is still developing within the great androgynous body of man.

This is entirely foreign to me.
I cannot speak of the Creator and evolution in the same sentence as if they are not diametrically opposed. How does one come to a conclusion such as this by scripture? God's word is my guide always, just as it was for Jesus.

Although scripture reveals that those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death as they await their resurrection, it also reveals the state of torment that awaits the wicked spirits=minds that had suffered the first death which was that of the physical wombs/bodies in which they had developed, as they await the final judgement, when they shall enter into a state of total oblivion. Only the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet suffer eternal torment as revealed in Rev 20: 10.

The first death is the one we inherited from Adam....we return to the dust, but it is completely reversible by resurrection. The second death is not reversible. Once a person is consigned to the second death it is permanent. There is no consciousness to suffer any torment. The only spirits in existence at that point are the faithful angels and those chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom. Once satan and his hordes are consigned to the lake of fire (another term synonymous with Gehenna) they are destroyed forever.

Revelation 21: 8; But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars ----- the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

The second death, when those minds are divided from the eternal soul/life-force, that pervades and animates all within this boundless cosmos.

What dividing are you speaking about. Those in the lake of fire cease to exist. Fire destroys utterly....it is a fitting symbol.

Psalms 146: 4; don't put your faith in the plans of men for their plans die with them. It's hard to accomplish your plans without a physical body

Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you? (Isaiah 45:18)

 

[YoursTrue]

I find the whole Bible interesting and when questions arise, allowing the scriptures themselves to answer provides proof of its internal harmony.



Solomon was unique as ruler in Israel because he was blessed with Godly wisdom and his writings manifest a deep understanding of the futility of this life. If this is all there is, what is the point of it?



Solomon often lamented about the many ways that this life results in futility. Why work hard if all you have worked for will be passed on to those who do not appreciate your efforts enough to even value them? We are no better off than the animals because death overtakes all of us....but in the beginning, this was not the case. Humans were designed to live forever in mortal flesh on earth. God provided the means...but when they disobeyed, those means were taken away until his will was accomplished here.



"Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.



Where will I find this idea in scripture? This is not what the Bible teaches.
When Christ is earths ruler, then all the dead are called from their graves....."both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29) Only after their resurrection are they judged. The unrighteous ones are given a period of judgment, many being educated in God's ways for the first time.
The wicked however, are not resurrected. They remain in eternal death. God has no reason or desire to keep the wicked alive, nor to torture them.

It is good to reflect on God's laws to his people....there were no prisons or torture prescribed by God for any crime committed. Capital crimes had the death penalty which meant that those guilty would never commit another offense. Those whose victims suffered loss were compensated by the perpetrator. It was a very fair system. God has no reason to torture anyone.



This is entirely foreign to me.
I cannot speak of the Creator and evolution in the same sentence as if they are not diametrically opposed. How does one come to a conclusion such as this by scripture? God's word is my guide always, just as it was for Jesus.



The first death is the one we inherited from Adam....we return to the dust, but it is completely reversible by resurrection. The second death is not reversible. Once a person is consigned to the second death it is permanent. There is no consciousness to suffer any torment. The only spirits in existence at that point are the faithful angels and those chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom. Once satan and his hordes are consigned to the lake of fire (another term synonymous with Gehenna) they are destroyed forever.



What dividing are you speaking about. Those in the lake of fire cease to exist. Fire destroys utterly....it is a fitting symbol.



Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you? (Isaiah 45:18)

Additionally, many people make plans in their lifetimes they would never make in God's new earth. Because they wouldn't need to or want to.

 

[Deeje]

Additionally, many people make plans in their lifetimes they would never make in God's new earth. Because they wouldn't need to or want to.

True. You only have to look at the change in lifestyle brought about by the disobedience in Eden. From being in paradise surroundings with every kind of delicious fruit imaginable there for the taking....to having to sweat it out, toiling hard for the soil to even produce enough grain to make bread. I can only imagine how much they must have lamented their decision. Their whole life was turned upside down and the children they had would never have known what life was like in the garden.

As it turned out, they got to complete only part of the mandate that God repeated to Noah. He told them to also..."Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth".....but this time there was no command to "subdue the earth". God knew that the turning of the whole earth into paradise conditions would have to wait until his Kingdom was ruling in the hands of his Christ, once all things had been accomplished to undo the damage Adam had done.

As for Matthew 7:21-23....I had never had that scripture brought to my attention before either. Once I realized that this was talking about those who claim Jesus as their Lord, I understood that not all who claim to be Christians really are. So what laws are these ones breaking? I was eager to find out.

 

[YoursTrue]

True. You only have to look at the change in lifestyle brought about by the disobedience in Eden. From being in paradise surroundings with every kind of delicious fruit imaginable there for the taking....to having to sweat it out, toiling hard for the soil to even produce enough grain to make bread. I can only imagine how much they must have lamented their decision. Their whole life was turned upside down and the children they had would never have known what life was like in the garden.

As it turned out, they got to complete only part of the mandate that God repeated to Noah. He told them to also..."Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth".....but this time there was no command to "subdue the earth". God knew that the turning of the whole earth into paradise conditions would have to wait until his Kingdom was ruling in the hands of his Christ, once all things had been accomplished to undo the damage Adam had done.

As for Matthew 7:21-23....I had never had that scripture brought to my attention before either. Once I realized that this was talking about those who claim Jesus as their Lord, I understood that not all who claim to be Christians really are. So what laws are these ones breaking? I was eager to find out.

I was actually relieved when someone taught me right from wrong. It took a while and I was constantly making sure, going to libraries and checking things out. Never been sorry. Nice talking with you.

 

[Deeje]

I was actually relieved when someone taught me right from wrong. It took a while and I was constantly making sure, going to libraries and checking things out. Never been sorry. Nice talking with you.

It is richly rewarding. Since you express sound Bible teaching, do you mind telling me who were your teachers?

 

[The Anointed]

I don't believe the Kabbalah (or the book of Enoch) is a word of God. Who says they are?

Enoch, as I am sure you will know, was the only exception of all mankind, who is recorded in the word of God, as having been taken to the very throne of Godhead, see Genesis 5: 23; and in Hebrew 11: 5; you will see that he was translated in order that he should never experience death. To translate something, you change it from one form to another. Is there a greater man recorded in the Bible than Enoch?

Elijah was also taken to heaven without experience death, but it was Enoch who was ANOINTED as the heir to the throne of Godhead

The Books of Enoch, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were held in great reverence by many of the church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian, and cherished by the early christians up until the 4th century, when under the ban of such dogmatic religious authorities of the Church of Emperor Constantine, as Jerome, Hilary and Augustine, the words of righteous Enoch, finally passed out of circulation and were thought to be lost for millennia.

The stone that the builders of the Christian church rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. What or who, is this Azazel?

In the margins of the Good News Catholic Study Bible, Leviticus 16: concerning “Azazel” it is written by the Catholic authors of the GNB; ‘AZAZEL’ “The meaning of this Hebrew word is unknown: it may be the name of a desert demon.” ‘Azazel’ see Leviticus16: 8.

The Orthodox religious organisations are ignorant as to who Azazel is, because they have rejected the books of Enoch.

Concerning Azazel, one of the Sons of God who descended as Observers, or Watchers as Enoch calls them, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

Tubal-Cain, was from an age of man prior to Seth, who is the first in the line of descendants from Adam according to the genealogy recorded in Genesis 5: and Tubal-Cain had been an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to its end)

The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8) Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9) through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin. "TO HIM (AZAZEL) ASCRIBE ALL SIN."

It was from the records of Enoch, that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed.

The fact that Jude the half brother to Jesus was allowed in the biblical cannon to quote verbatim from the words of righteous Enoch as the word of God, then we also have been given the right to see, and quote from his words, as the word of God.

But please feel free to reject the anointed one who was in the valley of man for three days (Three periods of one thousand years) before being reborn on earth as the man Jesus, over whom death had no power.

 

[mindlight]

The Lazarus in Luke 16 is Not the same Lazarus as found at John 11:11-14 who lived with Mary and Martha.

The other Lazarus does not save your argument either. It is clear that when Jesus says he is sleeping he is indicating that his condition is temporary. When the disciples ask for clarification of what he means Jesus tells them plainly:

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. " John 11:14

Lazarus was a common name back them, to the Lazarus of Luke 16 stands for the 'common man'.
The 'rich man' stood for the Pharisees (Luke 16:14-15; Luke 16:19) whom Jesus was there addressing.
So, the parable illustration was showing the spiritual change that was happening,
Now the Pharisees would Not have God's favor, but the common Lazarus people would be blessed spiritually.

Allegorisation ignoring plain meaning

There are a great many NT passages that indicate a conscious existence for believers following death:
2 Cor 5:8;Phil 1:23;Luke 23:43;Heb 12:23;Rev 6:9-11;Rev 7:9-10

Moses and Elijah and Enoch are clearly OT figures in a conscious relationship with Jesus. As Jesus indicates to the Sadducees:

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".."He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living." Matt 22:32

In the parable of Luke 16 Abraham and Lazarus and the rich man are all conscious.

 

[mindlight]

Seems to me you are also trying to say Jesus had a limited vision because Jesus based his teachings on the OT.
Jesus taught 'SLEEP' in death at John 11:11-14.

Jesus taught that death was temporary like sleep and then proved it.

Jesus being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures would have learned that sleeping condition from them.
So, what Jesus taught is in harmony with Solomon at Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18

Jesus said I am the God of the Living and then spoke about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hebrews talks about a great crowd of witnesses to our earthly endeavours (the church invisible). The mainstream doctrine of the church has never been soul sleep.

Those ' disembodied spirits ' were those fallen angels who used 'materialized bodies' that were washed away in the Flood, thus placed in the darkness of tartarus - Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Peter 3:18-19.

True about Tartarus not Hades, I stand corrected on that.

Agree, Revelation was written by John, John who also penned John 11:11-14.
Since Revelation was written at the end of the first century it does Not apply to the first century.

John wrote the final version at the end of the reign of Domitian but there were probably earlier draft. I am not a Preterist but it is clear that Johns letters to the seven churches are to first century situations so not sure what does not apply to first century means.

Jesus was asleep in the grave ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27) until his God resurrected Jesus out of the grave.
Resurrection did Not happen on the day Jesus' died. Jesus went to 'hell' the day he died.
There is No life in hades/hell because biblical hell is only the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Those ' spirits ' were never in biblical hell. Tartarus is Not another word for hades/hell/ grave.

Yes, the transfiguration vision happened just as described at Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
Jesus said to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one at that time frame.
A VISION is Not a literal happening but was a VISION according to Matthew 17:9.

Luke 16 is a parable story just as Matthew 13:35-36 informs us Jesus would Not speak to them without a parable.
Mark agrees at Mark 4:11.

Vision as in what the disciples had seen in a literal historical place and time. Not vision as in shared hallucination.

 

[mindlight]

The problem with this comparison is that the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the "sleep" of death was a real person. The Lazarus (a common name in those days) in Jesus' parable was just a man in a story told to illustrate a situation taking place at that time. A separation of the Jews between those following the Pharisees (the rich man) and those who like the beggar (Lazarus) acknowledged Jesus as Messiah and took their place in God's affections (Abraham' bosom). This parable in included among many other parables that Jesus gave. Taken literally it is ridiculous.

There is no heaven or hell scenario in the Hebrew Scriptures and there continued to be none in the teachings of Jesus. Gehenna is not a fiery hell. It is Israel's rubbish dump where discarded things were disposed of.

Jesus was, by his own admission, "in the heart of the earth for three days and nights". His resurrection was NOT immediately after his death, but three days later. Jesus did not go to hades to preach to the spirits of the dead whilst his body was in the tomb. The spirits to whom Jesus "preached" were demon angels who were in a condition of restraint (Tartarus) since the days of Noah.

There is no such thing as spirits of the dead. The dead "know nothing". (Ezekiel 9:5, 10) There is no part of man that departs from the body at death. The soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4) The Bible does not say that souls are immortal.

The mainstream interpretation of the church of what Jesus said is that there is a literal heaven and hell. There is a difference between spirit preaching to spirits in tartarus and resurrection.

Annihilationism is also not a fair reading of the whole of scripture nor mainstream teaching.

 

[mindlight]

As God he never left heaven? How many persons are there in your God?

God is One , God is Three. Jesus is fully God and fully Man in the same person. Since God is omnipresent and man is not. Jesus was both in heaven and not in heaven.

 

[The Anointed]

I find the whole Bible interesting and when questions arise, allowing the scriptures themselves to answer provides proof of its internal harmony.



Solomon was unique as ruler in Israel because he was blessed with Godly wisdom and his writings manifest a deep understanding of the futility of this life. If this is all there is, what is the point of it?



Solomon often lamented about the many ways that this life results in futility. Why work hard if all you have worked for will be passed on to those who do not appreciate your efforts enough to even value them? We are no better off than the animals because death overtakes all of us....but in the beginning, this was not the case. Humans were designed to live forever in mortal flesh on earth. God provided the means...but when they disobeyed, those means were taken away until his will was accomplished here.



"Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.



Where will I find this idea in scripture? This is not what the Bible teaches.
When Christ is earths ruler, then all the dead are called from their graves....."both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29) Only after their resurrection are they judged. The unrighteous ones are given a period of judgment, many being educated in God's ways for the first time.
The wicked however, are not resurrected. They remain in eternal death. God has no reason or desire to keep the wicked alive, nor to torture them.

It is good to reflect on God's laws to his people....there were no prisons or torture prescribed by God for any crime committed. Capital crimes had the death penalty which meant that those guilty would never commit another offense. Those whose victims suffered loss were compensated by the perpetrator. It was a very fair system. God has no reason to torture anyone.



This is entirely foreign to me.
I cannot speak of the Creator and evolution in the same sentence as if they are not diametrically opposed. How does one come to a conclusion such as this by scripture? God's word is my guide always, just as it was for Jesus.



The first death is the one we inherited from Adam....we return to the dust, but it is completely reversible by resurrection. The second death is not reversible. Once a person is consigned to the second death it is permanent. There is no consciousness to suffer any torment. The only spirits in existence at that point are the faithful angels and those chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom. Once satan and his hordes are consigned to the lake of fire (another term synonymous with Gehenna) they are destroyed forever.



What dividing are you speaking about. Those in the lake of fire cease to exist. Fire destroys utterly....it is a fitting symbol.



Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you? (Isaiah 45:18)

DEEJE Wrote...……."Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.

Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you?

The Anointed...……. You have said that the resurrection is back to life in a physical body here on earth, which is under the sun, whereas Solomon, in his Satirical work (Ecclesiastes) says that you will never take part in anything that happens under the sun.

Make your mind up my friend.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct! You will also notice in Luke 9:32----that Peter and his companions were HEAVY WITH SLEEP, but awake when they saw the vision and heard the heavenly voice say; "This is my son whom I have CHOSEN; listen to him."

Thank you for your reply.
Of course, Peter and company were Not dead, but simply in deep sleep at this time.
I am wondering which translation you used for Luke 9:32 ____________________
KJV does Not mention 'vision' at Luke 9:32, also the Greek Interlinear does not say 'vision' at Luke 9:32.
The Greek Interlinear does use the word ' vision ' at Matthew 17:9 thus confirming what is in Luke is a 'vision'.
The ' glory time ' of Luke 9:31-32 is the coming ' glory time ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
So, the transfiguration was a vision, or a visionary picture for us of Jesus' future coming time of glory.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is One , God is Three. Jesus is fully God and fully Man in the same person. Since God is omnipresent and man is not. Jesus was both in heaven and not in heaven.

I find at Psalms 90:2 that God is from everlasting.... (No beginning )
I find at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B that pre-human Jesus had a beginning.
So, only God was before the beginning. Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Also, at Revelation 3:12 the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.
Three persons would need three thrones, and I only find two thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The other Lazarus does not save your argument either. It is clear that when Jesus says he is sleeping he is indicating that his condition is temporary. When the disciples ask for clarification of what he means Jesus tells them plainly:
"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. " John 11:14
Allegorisation ignoring plain meaning
There are a great many NT passages that indicate a conscious existence for believers following death:
2 Cor 5:8;Phil 1:23;Luke 23:43;Heb 12:23;Rev 6:9-11;Rev 7:9-10
Moses and Elijah and Enoch are clearly OT figures in a conscious relationship with Jesus. As Jesus indicates to the Sadducees:
"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".."He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living." Matt 22:32
In the parable of Luke 16 Abraham and Lazarus and the rich man are all conscious.

The Lazarus of John 11:11-14 is a 4-day dead person whom Jesus likens death to sleep.
Sure God is a God of the living, and because of the Resurrection Hope those faithful dead will live again.
Because God promised the Resurrection is why God can consider those dead as already being alive.
King David had God's favor yet according to Acts of the apostles 2:34 David is Not yet resurrected.
Also, I find John the baptist is still in his grave - Matthew 11:11.

To which 'heavens ' did Elijah ascend __________
Jesus did Not lie when he said No man has ascended at John 3:13.
The 'ascending in the wind storm to the heavens' of 1 Kings 2:11 was the mid-heavens where the birds fly.
A wind storm could only exist in the atmosphere of the mid-heavens, not beyond.
So, Elijah was simply ' transferred ' from one place to another place. see 2 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
Elijah still alive because Elijah was alive on Earth years later when he wrote to King Jehoram.
So, it is just as Jesus confirms at John 3:13 Elijah was Not dead.

God simply took Enoch before his enemies could. Took in the sense of cutting short his life.
That too as in the case of Moses, that God disposed of Moses body.
I find at Hebrews 11:13 that Enoch ( verse 5) did Not get the fulfillment of the promises as of yet.
That is because the resurrection of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 has Not yet taken place.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The other Lazarus does not save your argument either. It is clear that when Jesus says he is sleeping he is indicating that his condition is temporary. When the disciples ask for clarification of what he means Jesus tells them plainly:
"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. " John 11:14
There are a great many NT passages that indicate a conscious existence for believers following death:
2 Cor 5:8;Phil 1:23;Luke 23:43;Heb 12:23;Rev 6:9-11;Rev 7:9-10
In the 'parable' of Luke 16 Abraham and Lazarus and the rich man are all conscious.

I find the definition of a parable is a story or an illustration and Not a real happening.

I find the people of Revelation 7:9-10 are also the living people of Revelation 7:14
Living people because they come through the coming great tribulation alive.

Revelation 6:9-11 those 'slaughtered souls' and Not disembodied souls as non-biblical people think.
They are part of the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 3:5; 4:4; 1 Peter 1:4
Being martyred (sacrificed, so to speak) when resurrected they leave Earth behind - 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Those of Hebrews 12:22-24 are part of 'heavenly Jerusalem' (Galatians 4:26; Revelation 20:6)
They are Not part of that 'great cloud of witnesses' of Hebrews 11:4-39; Hebrews 12:1.
Those listed in chapter 11 did Not yet receive the promise - promise of a resurrection - Hebrews 11:13,39

Philippians 1:23 is addressing those with a heavenly hope - Philippians 1:1
2 Corinthians 5:8 is also addressing those with a heavenly calling.
The judgement seat of Christ includes both. The first fruits of 1 Corinthians 15:20,22.
And the judgement seat at the soon coming 'time of separating' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 to take place on Earth.
There is a final judgement on Earth before the start of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.

As far as Luke 23:43 is concerned, I find Jesus was No, Not ever resurrected on the day he died.
Jesus went to biblical hell (the temporary grave) on the day Jesus died - see Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day Jesus died. No Scripture says Jesus was resurrected the day he died.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The mainstream interpretation of the church of what Jesus said is that there is a literal heaven and hell.......................
Annihilationism is also not a fair reading of the whole of scripture nor mainstream teaching.

Mainstream Bible as far as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever'.
Those who bring ruin to Earth will be brought to ruin as per Revelation 11:18 B.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
Proverbs 2:21-22 tells us who remains.

I find the Bible does teach about a literal heaven and a literal hell.
The difference is that false clergy teach a false literal hell of fire of burning forever and ever.
Whereas, the 'Bible's hell' is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
The dead know No pain but just sleep as per Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; 146:4 and see Isaiah 38:18.
Please notice at Revelation 20:13-14 that after everyone in biblical hell (grave) is ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ) then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell.
This is why 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8.

 

[YoursTrue]

God is One , God is Three. Jesus is fully God and fully Man in the same person. Since God is omnipresent and man is not. Jesus was both in heaven and not in heaven.

That cannot be when you have a man-god praying to a nonman-god. Your God, while you say it is omnipresent, is three persons. The Trinity does not make sense.