Question about Michael Brown leads to beating on St. Louis light rail train

[Revoltingest]

You are saying it goes both ways.. What was NYC's (a pretty liberal constituency) "stop&frisk" policy?

Stop-and-frisk in New York City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[George-ananda]

Stop-and-frisk in New York City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, I should have just gone to Wikipedia myself instead of you doing my work for me.

This is not 'institutionalized racism' in my book. The laws and rules say nothing about the race of any of the people involved.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks, I should have just gone to Wikipedia myself instead of you doing my work for me.

No worries....yours was a valid question, & gave me the opportunity to support my claim to best illustrate it.

This is not 'institutionalized racism' in my book. The laws and rules say nothing about the race of any of the people involved.

But the government systematically targeted Hispanic & black folk.
Laws are more than words on a page...they're what the authorities do with them.

 

[George-ananda]

But the government systematically targeted Hispanic & black folk.

It just works out that way because for whatever reasons these groups are disproportionately involved in illegal behavior; and police officers have pattern finding intelligence with neighborhoods and situations.

Laws are more than words on a page...they're what the authorities do with them.

That is not what I would call 'institutionalized' which I would distinguish from 'in practice'.

 

[Revoltingest]

It just works out that way because for whatever reasons these groups are disproportionately involved in illegal behavior; and police officers have pattern finding intelligence with neighborhoods and situations.
That is not what I would call 'institutionalized' which I would distinguish from 'in practice'.

Is "systematic" only that which is written down?
No, I say it's whatever is done with intent & by the system of government.
Racism & sexism are systemic, even in violation of written law.

I should know, as an avowed misogynist & racist.

 

[fantome profane]

Thanks, I should have just gone to Wikipedia myself instead of you doing my work for me.

This is not 'institutionalized racism' in my book. The laws and rules say nothing about the race of any of the people involved.

"Institutionalized" does not mean part of the legal code. "Institutionalized" means part of the institution. Not everything a institution does is written down, but it still happens and it is still part of the way that institution behaves. That is what institutionalized means.

 

[George-ananda]

Is "systematic" only that which is written down?
No, I say it's whatever is done with intent & by the system of government.
Racism & sexism are systemic, even in violation of written law.

I should know, as an avowed misogynist & racist.

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't see how people from disproportionately high criminality areas getting disproportionately more police attention is racist. I call it working for the public's safety; including the safety of law-abiding minority people in high crime neighborhoods.

 

[freethinker44]

It just works out that way because for whatever reasons these groups are disproportionately involved in illegal behavior; and police officers have pattern finding intelligence with neighborhoods and situations.

That's BS. NYC could have made a fortune if they patrolled wall street with their stop and frisk. They would have found cocaine on every other person they stopped and probably a lot of cash they could seize.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't see how people from disproportionately high criminality areas getting disproportionately more police attention is racist. I call it working for the public's safety; including the safety of law-abiding minority people in high crime neighborhoods.

The disproportionate attention might be based upon real fact.
The problem with "stop & frisk" though is that it is blatantly illegal.
One's race does not rise to the level of probable cause for a warrantless search.
This race based illegality is what makes it systemic/systematic racism.

 

[George-ananda]

That's BS. NYC could have made a fortune if they patrolled wall street with their stop and frisk. They would have found cocaine on every other person they stopped and probably a lot of cash they could seize.

So are you saying police just like to harass these minorities for no reason? And that blacks and Hispanics are not really disproportionately involved in crime requiring more police attention.

 

[George-ananda]

The disproportionate attention might be based upon real fact.
The problem with "stop & frisk" though is that it is blatantly illegal.
One's race does not rise to the level of probable cause for a warrantless search.
This race based illegality is what makes it systemic/systematic racism.

Wait a toilet plunging minute here. The police I'm sure do warrantless searches on people of all races. There may be a disproportion but that is based on neighborhoods and crime patterns.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wait a toilet plunging minute here. The police I'm sure do warrantless searches on people of all races. There may be a disproportion but that is based on neighborhoods and crime patterns.

They no doubt believe that.
But the illegality of it is a big factor in my calling it systemic racism.

(And to think I get accused of excusing racism by some.
Oh, well.....that's how things are in a polarized place.
I'm done carping about that for now.)

 

[fantome profane]

So are you saying police just like to harass these minorities for no reason? And that blacks and Hispanics are not really disproportionately involved in crime requiring more police attention.

Actually the statistics are pretty clear that Whites and Blacks use illegal drugs at about the the same rate. But blacks are arrested for drug crimes at a much higher rate.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually the statistics are pretty clear that Whites and Blacks use illegal drugs at about the the same rate. But blacks are arrested for drug crimes at a much higher rate.

I've heard that this is due to cops focusing upon prosecution of some drugs (eg, crack as opposed to coke) more than others.
If true, this could be due to racism, low hanging fruit syndrome, or some other policy matter.
Anyone know about this?
(I'm not just lazy....I also want to give the opportunity for someone to bask in the warm glow of displaying greater knowledge.)

 

[George-ananda]

They no doubt believe that.
But the illegality of it is a big factor in my calling it systemic racism.

But here you are mixing two issues, the legality of a warrantless search (which is a different issue) and the racial issue. I am only commenting on the racism claims in this thread.

(And to think I get accused of excusing racism by some.
Oh, well.....that's how things are in a polarized place.
I'm done carping about that for now.)

In this thread you sound like the 'commie lib' Revoltingest

 

[freethinker44]

I've heard that this is due to cops focusing upon prosecution of some drugs (eg, crack as opposed to coke) more than others.
If true, this could be due to racism, low hanging fruit syndrome, or some other policy matter.
Anyone know about this?
(I'm not just lazy....I also want to give the opportunity for someone to bask in the warm glow of displaying greater knowledge.)

Just a personal anecdote, but I've known crack addicts and cocaine addicts and to me crack is clearly the most destructive of the two.

 

[Revoltingest]

But here you are mixing two issues, the legality of a warrantless search (which is a different issue) and the racial issue. I am only commenting on the racism claims in this thread.

I believe that the synergy of the 2 things makes it systemic racism.

In this thread you sound like the 'commie lib' Revoltingest

Good!

 

[Revoltingest]

Just a personal anecdote, but I've known crack addicts and cocaine addicts and to me crack is clearly the most destructive of the two.

And that could be a valid reason for their focusing upon it more, even if it has disparate effect with respect to race.

 

[George-ananda]

Actually the statistics are pretty clear that Whites and Blacks use illegal drugs at about the the same rate. But blacks are arrested for drug crimes at a much higher rate.

I've heard that this is due to cops focusing upon prosecution of some drugs (eg, crack as opposed to coke) more than others.
If true, this could be due to racism, low hanging fruit syndrome, or some other policy matter.
Anyone know about this?
(I'm not just lazy....I also want to give the opportunity for someone to bask in the warm glow of displaying greater knowledge.)

As we know statistics have to be interpreted for the reasons why and not jump to racism; like a group disproportionately committing other crimes is more likely to be taken into custody and then searched for drugs, etc..

 

[Revoltingest]

As we know statistics have to be interpreted for the reasons why and not jump to racism; like a group disproportionately committing other crimes is more likely to be taken into custody and then searched for drugs, etc..

Agree.