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Question about the Trinity ?

Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Vanakkam friends,

I have a question related to christianity, I'm curious about knowing this:

How do a christian see the trinity, and Maria ?

Let me explain :)

Do christian see God, Jesus, the Holy spirit and Maria as different entities ? For exemple, is Maria considered as separated from God, an individual force/being ?

Or are those seen as the same as God ?

I am wondering because there is so many different Maria, I am wondering when I go back to my family in Spain and when they light a lamp to pray to the local Maria: "Are they praying to God trough Maria, or are they praying to Maria ?"

Can you enlighten me on this one please ? :) Thank you very much !
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
i dont represent all christians in what im about to say, only our own view of the matter.

We see God/Jehovah as the Almighty Creator of all things.
Jesus Christ is a created being, the very first created heavenly son. He is an individual just as you are an individual and not a part of your own parents.
We see the holy spirit as Gods power or active force...its not a person in any way shape or form.

and we see mary (maria?) as the young woman who was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus. We do not see her as the 'mother of God' . She is merely a servant of God just as any other chosen human is a servant of God. She went on to have several more children after the birth of Jesus...thats how it came that Jesus had 'brothers and sisters' according to the gospel accounts.
We do not pray to her because to us, that would be considered an act of idolatry.

Our view is that the trinity is not a christian teaching. God, Jesus and holy spirit are not all one person. Jesus cannot be God if he is created by God.
 
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Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,


Thank you for your answer and your honesty ! I wanted to see more opinions on this but there aren't many christians around here apparently ! xD Well, nevermind !

So, Maria is seen as a human, chosen to give birth to Jesus...So she is regarded and revered as a memory by christians then ? For exemple, statues of Maria and praises of Her are to remember and honour the woman chosen to give birth to God's children ?

I believe your point, but I am confused a little, people many many people I have seen, even in my family, pray to Maria like She is God, or is more than human, have powers. For exemple pray to Maria for children, for welfare of someone, etc...

I though it was something common in christian practice, that's why I was wondering about this question...But apparently is not useful/permitted to pray to Maria as a "more than a human" or a part of God ?

Thank you again for your answer !
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
You will get a varied answer on Mary depending on the tradition you are talking to.

There is no answer for Christianity as a whole, I would say, other than she is important to people in different ways and degrees of intensity.

You get Blessed Virgin Mary, To Mary Mother of God, To Mary Mother of Jesus, to Simply Mary.....

The Trinity is a little more common, although as Pegg points out there are certainly Christian sects out there who are Unitarian and they aren't few in numbers either.

In an 'orthodox' setting you will perhaps get things explained one way,
but in private people might relate to the concepts you talk about in a very different and personal way.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Vanakkam,


Thank you for your answer and your honesty ! I wanted to see more opinions on this but there aren't many christians around here apparently ! xD Well, nevermind !

So, Maria is seen as a human, chosen to give birth to Jesus...So she is regarded and revered as a memory by christians then ? For exemple, statues of Maria and praises of Her are to remember and honour the woman chosen to give birth to God's children ?

I believe your point, but I am confused a little, people many many people I have seen, even in my family, pray to Maria like She is God, or is more than human, have powers. For exemple pray to Maria for children, for welfare of someone, etc...

I though it was something common in christian practice, that's why I was wondering about this question...But apparently is not useful/permitted to pray to Maria as a "more than a human" or a part of God ?

Thank you again for your answer !

christians do venerate mary....especially the orthodox & catholics. The reason for this is because they elevated the status of Jesus to being that of God...so they also elevated the status of Mary to being the 'mother of God'

but you have to understand that the bible does not contain such ideas or doctrines. Rather the bible identifies Mary as Jesus earthly mother, chosen by God because she was a good woman. But it never calls her the 'mother of God' nor does it say she went to heaven or exists in heaven, nor does it tell christians to pray to Mary.

Many people are shocked to read in the bible that Mary actually had several children after giving birth to Jesus. If you dont read the bible, you wont know about these facts because orthodox and catholic churches dont encourage people to read the bible...the most catholics are simply not aware that what they are being taught in church is not coming from the bible.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Many people are shocked to read in the bible that Mary actually had several children after giving birth to Jesus. If you dont read the bible, you wont know about these facts because orthodox and catholic churches dont encourage people to read the bible...the most catholics are simply not aware that what they are being taught in church is not coming from the bible.

Correction, what is not allowed for Catholics, as a member's POV, is having personal interpretations to avoid various versions of what a verse supposedly mean. And we believe in Sacred (oral) traditions. Catholics are not "bible alone" christians.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Correction, what is not allowed for Catholics, as a member's POV, is having personal interpretations to avoid various versions of what a verse supposedly mean. And we believe in Sacred (oral) traditions. Catholics are not "bible alone" christians.

Wasn't Jesus a 'Scripture alone' teacher teaching that the Scriptures are religious truth at John 17 v 17 ? What other authority did Jesus use besides Scripture ?

What did Jesus teach about tradition outside of Scripture- Mark 7 vs 1-7,13;Matt. 15 v 9 ?
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Wasn't Jesus a 'Scripture alone' teacher teaching that the Scriptures are religious truth at John 17 v 17 ? What other authority did Jesus use besides Scripture ?

What did Jesus teach about tradition outside of Scripture- Mark 7 vs 1-7,13;Matt. 15 v 9 ?

Uhm, 2 Thes2:15- "Therefore, brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an 'oral statement' or by letter of ours"
1Cor11:2- " I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them to you."

And oh, John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."
 

Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,

Thank you everyone for your answers !


I didn't though about the different traditions in chrstianism :sarcastic It sure seems different !
Sorry if I seems ignorant about this :D Well, my family is from spain and seeing what you say they seems more to practice "their own" christianity than belonging to a particular way... There is even a wide variety of Maria, all differents and all have different purposes, there is even a Maria of the sea popular in small villages ! ;)

Forgive me too I never really have read the bible <__<" I didn't know the answer was there.

Basically, there is not answer then, it depends what path you belong to and what authority do you refer to :0

Thank you all, I think it's an interesting matter, and you have said many good answers ^^ I see better now !
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Uhm, 2 Thes2:15- "Therefore, brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an 'oral statement' or by letter of ours"
1Cor11:2- " I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them to you."
And oh, John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

John concluded chapter 20 at verse 31 with what was written down about Jesus was enough to believe Jesus is the Christ [Messiah] in order to gain life [everlasting].

Jesus taught No tradition or custom outside of Scripture.
The apostles stood by Jesus teachings
Jesus nor his disciples ever quoted oral Jewish tradition to support their teachings, but always referred to the written word [Scripture]
-Matthew 4 vs 4-10; Romans 15 v 4; 2nd Timothy 3 vs 15-17

What does 2nd Thess. 3 v 6 say: Now we are giving you orders,.... to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and Not according to the tradition [instruction] you received [ past tense ] from us. Received as in already finished. Which you have [past tense] been taught verbally by the apostles or by their written letters.- 2nd Thess. 2 v 15

2nd Thess 2 v 15 is in reference to 1st Cor. 11 v 2 which is in connection to 1st. Cor. 4 v 17 'That is why I am sending Timothy to you....he will put you in mind [remembrance] of my methods [ways] in connection with Christ Jesus, just as I am teaching everywhere in every congregation.' No further additions are needed. - Rev. 22 v 18
 
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nazz

Doubting Thomas
The trinity is the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I do believe that relationship exists. Each is an aspect of the whole--God. The Father is the unseen source of All. The Son was the physical expression of that Source on earth. The Spirit is the active force of God in the world.

I like to liken the trinitarian relationship to this: The Father is the power generating source, the Son is the conduit, and the Spirit is the "juice", the spiritual energy, that runs through that conduit from source to output.

I also use some other similes to explain the Mystery. The Father is like the Sun and the Son is like the ray of Light which emanates from it.

The Father is like the Ocean and the Son like a cup of seawater drawn from it (the cup being the physical vessel--the human body--which contained it).

As in biology, the Son precedes from the Father, is begotten. The Son is not the Father but is begotten in His likeness. (Spiritual) flesh of his flesh, bone of his bones, with his Father's DNA.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
nazz-

The Father and the Son are always in Scripture as masculine.
God's holy spirit is also referred to in the neuter. Neuter as 'it' or 'itself'
[Numbers 11 vs 16,17,25; Romans 8 vs 16,26 KJV; Psalm 104 v 30]
Greek grammar rules allow for a neuter to be in the masculine.
As does English grammar allow for a ship or boat to be called a 'she'
That does Not make a ship or boat a person any more than 'he' makes neuter holy spirit a person.

According to Scripture God had No beginning. - Psalm 90 v 2
Jesus on the other hand had a heavenly beginning - Rev. 3 v 14
Jesus existed in the heavens [ pre-human life] before God sent Jesus to earth.
Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
nazz-

The Father and the Son are always in Scripture as masculine.
God's holy spirit is also referred to in the neuter. Neuter as 'it' or 'itself'
[Numbers 11 vs 16,17,25; Romans 8 vs 16,26 KJV; Psalm 104 v 30]
Greek grammar rules allow for a neuter to be in the masculine.
As does English grammar allow for a ship or boat to be called a 'she'
That does Not make a ship or boat a person any more than 'he' makes neuter holy spirit a person.

According to Scripture God had No beginning. - Psalm 90 v 2
Jesus on the other hand had a heavenly beginning - Rev. 3 v 14
Jesus existed in the heavens [ pre-human life] before God sent Jesus to earth.
Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

don't see where we disagree

:shrug:
 

millennium3000

New Member
PEOPLE who believe the Trinity teaching say that God consists of three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these three persons is said to be equal to the others, almighty, and without beginning. According to the Trinity doctrine, therefore, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God.

Many who believe the Trinity admit that they are not able to explain this teaching. Still, they may feel that it is taught in the Bible. It is worth noting that the word “Trinity” never occurs in the Bible. But is the idea of a Trinity found there? To answer this question, let us look at a scripture that supporters often cite to uphold the Trinity.

“THE WORD WAS GOD”
John 1:1 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (King James Version) Later in the same chapter, the apostle John clearly shows that “the Word” is Jesus. (John 1:14) Since the Word is called God, however, some conclude that the Son and the Father must be part of the same God.

Bear in mind that this part of the Bible was originally written in Greek. Later, translators rendered the Greek text into other languages. A number of Bible translators, though, did not use the phrase “the Word was God.” Why not? Based on their knowledge of Biblical Greek, those translators concluded that the phrase “the Word was God” should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: “The Logos [Word] was divine.” (A New Translation of the Bible) “The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version) “The Word was with God and shared his nature.” (The Translator’s New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself.* Instead, because of his high position among Jehovah’s creatures, the Word is referred to as “a god.” Here the term “god” means “mighty one.”

GET MORE FACTS
Most people do not know Biblical Greek. So how can you know what the apostle John really meant? Think of this example: A schoolteacher explains a subject to his students. Afterward, the students differ on how to understand the explanation. How can the students resolve the matter? They could ask the teacher for more information. No doubt, learning additional facts would help them to understand the subject better. Similarly, to grasp the meaning of John 1:1, you can look in the Gospel of John for more information on Jesus’ position. Learning additional facts on this subject will help you to draw the right conclusion.

For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: “No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time.” However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: “The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory.” (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was “with God.” But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father “the only true God.” And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is “a god” in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

CONFIRM THE FACTS
Think again about the example of the schoolteacher and the students. Imagine that some still have doubts, even after listening to the teacher’s additional explanation. What could they do? They could turn to another teacher for further information on the same subject. If the second teacher confirms the explanation of the first one, the doubts of most students may be put to rest. Similarly, if you are not sure what the Bible writer John was really saying about the relationship between Jesus and Almighty God, you could turn to another Bible writer for further information. Consider what was written by Matthew, for example. Regarding the end of this system of things, he quotes Jesus as saying: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36) How do these words confirm that Jesus is not Almighty God?

Jesus says that the Father knows more than the Son does. If Jesus were part of Almighty God, however, he would know the same facts as his Father. So, then, the Son and the Father cannot be equal. Yet, some will say: ‘Jesus had two natures. Here he speaks as a man.’ But even if that were so, what about the holy spirit? If it is part of the same God as the Father, why does Jesus not say that it knows what the Father knows?

As you continue your Bible studies, you will become familiar with many more Bible passages that have a bearing on this subject. They confirm the truth about the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.—Psalm 90:2; Acts 7:55; Colossians 1:15.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Bear in mind that this part of the Bible was originally written in Greek. Later, translators rendered the Greek text into other languages. A number of Bible translators, though, did not use the phrase “the Word was God.” Why not? Based on their knowledge of Biblical Greek, those translators concluded that the phrase “the Word was God” should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: “The Logos [Word] was divine.” (A New Translation of the Bible) “The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version) “The Word was with God and shared his nature.” (The Translator’s New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself.* Instead, because of his high position among Jehovah’s creatures, the Word is referred to as “a god.” Here the term “god” means “mighty one.”

Looked at this critically and it does not seem to hold up under rules of Greek grammar.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...and No where does it say the Word was 'before' the beginning.

Only God was 'before' the beginning. - Psalm 90 v 2
The Word was not 'before' the beginning as God was before the beginning.
- Rev. 3 v 14
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
"The Word was with God, and the Word was God.. and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.."
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
"The Word was with God, and the Word was God.. and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.."

The same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28 v 6 B.
The translators [KJV] inserted the 'a' at Acts and did Not insert an 'a' at John 1 v 1.
They were not consistent.

Who made the Word flesh ? Wasn't it God who sent Jesus?
There is No Scripture that says Jesus sent himself.
Yes, Jesus was 'with' God. Who is 'with' himself or herself ?
Aren't we 'with' another person?
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
The same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28 v 6 B.
The translators [KJV] inserted the 'a' at Acts and did Not insert an 'a' at John 1 v 1.
They were not consistent.

Who made the Word flesh ? Wasn't it God who sent Jesus?
There is No Scripture that says Jesus sent himself.
Yes, Jesus was 'with' God. Who is 'with' himself or herself ?
Aren't we 'with' another person?

But it says the Word was God. And that the word was made flesh.
 
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