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Question for Atheists...

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Let us see what @Subduction Zone or @Polymath257 have to say about that as to whether the sphere* of universe has something in it or does not even have space (if they will be kind enough to give what they think about it. They know better than me). I still have my doubts.
* Is it really a sphere or just the surface of a balloon? You may read about 'manifolds'.

"Curved geometries are in the domain of Non-Euclidean geometry. An example of a positively curved space would be the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. A triangle drawn from the equator to a pole will have at least two angles equal 90°, which makes the sum of the 3 angles greater than 180°. An example of a negatively curved surface would be the shape of a saddle or mountain pass. A triangle drawn on a saddle surface will have the sum of the angles adding up to less than 180°."

1687686886671.jpeg
h08rhzqhvu521.jpg
spheroidal-universe.jpg

The universe could be pf any such shapes or even more weird.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
World wide is readily disproved by polar ice
that deeply predates any possible " flood"
timeline.
It really doesn't. It works only if you believe the different layers tells about different years, but it may be a wrong idea.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
"Curved geometries are in the domain of Non-Euclidean geometry. An example of a positively curved space would be the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. A triangle drawn from the equator to a pole will have at least two angles equal 90°, which makes the sum of the 3 angles greater than 180°. An example of a negatively curved surface would be the shape of a saddle or mountain pass. A triangle drawn on a saddle surface will have the sum of the angles adding up to less than 180°."
This is absolutely true but these are the 2-d versions used to explain the 3-d space of the universe. Look at the bullet points just below where you linked to under "Curvature of the universe". The first, flat space, is referred to as E³, that's three-dimensional Euclidean space (follow the link). The second, positive curvature, is modelled as S³, that's the three-dimensional surface of a three-sphere. A normal sphere, in 3-d space, is a two-sphere.


1-sphere
Commonly called a circle....
2-sphere
Commonly simply called a sphere...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think I was annoyed that I did.
I became an engineer which requires you to develop critical thinking skills.
Your mind starts to think differently when you have to justify your designs/costs to the bean counters.
It occurred to me over a long period of time until it was obvious. I was a little upset with myself that it wasn't obvious to me before.

Some said they simply "grew-up". Whatever that means, apparently that doesn't happen with everybody.
We can't all be perfect.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It really doesn't. It works only if you believe the different layers tells about different years, but it may be a wrong idea.

That has been tested. For example, we know the dates when certain volcanoes erupted. And we can see the traces of ash from those volcanoes in the ice layers. This allows us to know that layers correspond to years. There are other tests along this line, all of which show that the layer<-->year correspondence is correct.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Astrophysics has nothing to say on the question of a supernatural realm of existence.

...which is a problem for those asserting "supernatural" explanations for, well, anything.

It's impossible to justify invoking a supernatural cause for something if we don't even have evidence that "the supernatural" is there to be invoked.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That has been tested. For example, we know the dates when certain volcanoes erupted. And we can see the traces of ash from those volcanoes in the ice layers. This allows us to know that layers correspond to years. There are other tests along this line, all of which show that the layer<-->year correspondence is correct.
Layers form each year. Observing this is
as clear and obvious as annual tree rings.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"Curved geometries are in the domain of Non-Euclidean geometry. An example of a positively curved space would be the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. A triangle drawn from the equator to a pole will have at least two angles equal 90°, which makes the sum of the 3 angles greater than 180°. An example of a negatively curved surface would be the shape of a saddle or mountain pass. A triangle drawn on a saddle surface will have the sum of the angles adding up to less than 180°."

There are several different things to unpack here.

First, an n-dimensional manifold is one that looks like n-dimensional Euclidean space 'up close'.

So, the surface of the Earth looks flat' close up, in other words like a 2-dimensional plane. So the surface of a sphere is a *2* dimensional manifold. Another way to see this is that it takes two coordinates (latitude and longitude) to locate a point on the surface of the Earth.

Space as we usually think about it 'looks like 3 dimensional Euclidean space' up close, so it is a *3* dimensional manifold. So, it takes 3 coordinates to locate a point in space (1: how far up and down, 2: how far left or right, 3: how far front or back).

Spacetime requires 4 coordinates (3 for space and one for time) to locate a point, so is a 4 dimensional manifold.

Next, if we look at latitude lines on the surface of a sphere, we get circles, which are a 1 dimensional manifold. These 'cross sections' where you fix one coordinate are submanifolds that have a dimension one less that the overall manifold.

So, space at a fixed time is a 3 dimensional submanifold of the 4 dimensional manifold of spacetime.

As another example, if we look at usual 3 dimensional Euclidean space, but use the radius from some point as one of the coordinates (and maybe latitude and longitude for the others), we find the submanifolds to be spheres of 2 dimensions. Furthermore, larger radii correspond to larger spheres.

For an expanding universe, we looks at different cross sections for spacetime at different times. All that it means to be expanding is that the distances in those cross sections are larger at later times.

So, we can look for the 'shape of space' as well as the 'shape of spacetime'. General relativity relates the curvature of spacetime to the density of mass and energy. So, more mass produces more curvature in spacetime.

The pictures you showed are 2 dimensional *analogies* for 3 dimensional space as cross sections of 4 dimensional spacetime. The balloon analogy is also a 2 dimensional analogy for 3 dimensional space.

Next, a sphere is said to be 'positively curved' and a saddle shape is 'negatively curved'. These describe 2 dimensional manifolds, but there are analogous concepts for higher dimensional manifolds. Under general relativity and in a uniform universe, the curvature of space changes over time as the universe expands. This curvature is related directly to the expansion factor.

Extensive measurements have been made over the last century or so to determine whether space is positively curved, negatively curved, of not curved at all. What we have found is that the curvature is too small to detect. Since a very small curvature cannot be distinguished from zero curvature, we don't know which of the three possibilities actually holds. This is one of the great open questions in cosmology. It is important because a positively curved universe is expected to contract eventually, potentially leading to a 'bounce' that can repeat. Zero and negative curvatures don't have that possibility (in the same way).

Mathematicians have classified the 2 dimensional manifolds. We are actively working on 3 dimensional manifolds (the Poincare conjecture is related to this) and we know that there is no way to completely classify manifolds of dimension 4 or higher.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let us see what @Subduction Zone or @Polymath257 have to say about that as to whether the sphere* of universe has something in it or does not even have space (if they will be kind enough to give what they think about it. They know better than me). I still have my doubts.
* Is it really a sphere or just the surface of a balloon? You may read about 'manifolds'.

"Curved geometries are in the domain of Non-Euclidean geometry. An example of a positively curved space would be the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. A triangle drawn from the equator to a pole will have at least two angles equal 90°, which makes the sum of the 3 angles greater than 180°. An example of a negatively curved surface would be the shape of a saddle or mountain pass. A triangle drawn on a saddle surface will have the sum of the angles adding up to less than 180°."

View attachment 78957
h08rhzqhvu521.jpg
spheroidal-universe.jpg

The universe could be pf any such shapes or even more weird.
That is way above my pay grade. This is the shape of the universe that I am currently working on:

1687701470140.png
 

PureX

Veteran Member
...which is a problem for those asserting "supernatural" explanations for, well, anything.
It's only a problem for those who think science is the only possible way of addressing questions on the true nature of ... well ... anything. Like yourself. For those of us that understand there are other methods and avenues of investigation, it's really not such a problem.
It's impossible to justify invoking a supernatural cause for something if we don't even have evidence that "the supernatural" is there to be invoked.
Of course it's not only possible, it's advisable. We humans learn by imagining possible explanations and the possibilities those explanation afford us, and then acting on them to see if they work. It may not gain us truth, but it does gain us some functional effectiveness that we can use to help keep us honest, at least. Your theory that an idea has to be justly valid before we can propose it is silly. We'd never learn anything if we behaved that way. Every possibility would be rejected before it was even tried.

I realize that's what you want us all to do with THIS idea, because you have decided it's not valid, but that's just your bias trying to get in everyone else's way.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's only a problem for those who think science is the only possible way of addressing questions on the true nature of ... well ... anything. Like yourself. For those of us that understand there are other methods and avenues of investigation, it's really not such a problem.

Of course it's not only possible, it's advisable. We humans learn by imagining possible explanations and the possibilities those explanation afford us, and then acting on them to see if they work. It may not gain us truth, but it does gain us some functional effectiveness that we can use to help keep us honest, at least. Your theory that an idea has to be justly valid before we can propose it is silly. We'd never learn anything if we behaved that way. Every possibility would be rejected before it was even tried.

I realize that's what you want us all to do with THIS idea, because you have decided it's not valid, but that's just your bias trying to get in everyone else's way.
Terrif! You FINALLY identified a
specific person to accuse of the vice
of scientism.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: ppp

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's only a problem for those who think science is the only possible way of addressing questions on the true nature of ... well ... anything. Like yourself. For those of us that understand there are other methods and avenues of investigation, it's really not such a problem.

It's a problem for anyone who cares that their beluefs are true.

Again: science is just observation with rigor.

It's certainly possible to apply less rigor to our inferences (i.e. lower our standards) or base our conclusions on things other than observation (i.e. make stuff up).

Of course it's not only possible, it's advisable. We humans learn by imagining possible explanations and the possibilities those explanation afford us, and then acting on them to see if they work. It may not gain us truth, but it does gain us some functional effectiveness that we can use to help keep us honest, at least. Your theory that an idea has to be justly valid before we can propose it is silly. We'd never learn anything if we behaved that way. Every possibility would be rejected before it was even tried.

I realize that's what you want us all to do with THIS idea, because you have decided it's not valid, but that's just your bias trying to get in everyone else's way.

I didn't say "propose;" I said "assert"... i.e. claim it as true.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's a problem for anyone who cares that their beluefs are true.

Again: science is just observation with rigor.

It's certainly possible to apply less rigor to our inferences (i.e. lower our standards) or base our conclusions on things other than observation (i.e. make stuff up).



I didn't say "propose;" I said "assert"... i.e. claim it as true.
Take away making stuff up and what do
the poorvtheists and "philosophers" have left? .
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It's a problem for anyone who cares that their beluefs are true.
You're gonna have to deal with your own ego on that.
Again: science is just observation with rigor.
Well, that's not true, though, is it. I mean the scientific process involves imagining possible explanations for things we observe but don't understand, and then imagining possible ways of testing those explanations to see what results. There's really quite a lot of imagination involved in science, and in advance of any sort of process verification. In fact, it's the process that produces verification. A process that starts with imagining the possibilities.
It's certainly possible to apply less rigor to our inferences (i.e. lower our standards) or base our conclusions on things other than observation (i.e. make stuff up).
It all begins with "making stuff up".... for your beloved science, too.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's only a problem for those who think science is the only possible way of addressing questions on the true nature of ... well ... anything. Like yourself. For those of us that understand there are other methods and avenues of investigation, it's really not such a problem.
Do you want reliable answers, or not? That is the first question. If you don't want reliable and true answers, go ahead and assume your supernatural.
Of course it's not only possible, it's advisable. We humans learn by imagining possible explanations and the possibilities those explanation afford us, and then acting on them to see if they work.
That means testing, and eliminating unnecessary assumptions.
It may not gain us truth, but it does gain us some functional effectiveness that we can use to help keep us honest, at least.
Objectivity and reason won't give you religious truth, but it will give you an understanding of what is true about how things are.
Your theory that an idea has to be justly valid before we can propose it is silly. We'd never learn anything if we behaved that way. Every possibility would be rejected before it was even tried.
The odd thing is that many theists don't learn that their supernaturalism is a set of assumptions that sabotage knowledge.
I realize that's what you want us all to do with THIS idea, because you have decided it's not valid, but that's just your bias trying to get in everyone else's way.
All critical thinkers request is that religious beliefs be understood to be dubious and more reliant on assumptions than evidence. And that reasoned conclusions are far more reliable than religious beliefs.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You're gonna have to deal with your own ego on that.

Well, that's not true, though, is it. I mean the scientific process involves imagining possible explanations for things we observe but don't understand, and then imagining possible ways of testing those explanations to see what results. There's really quite a lot of imagination involved in science, and in advance of any sort of process verification. In fact, it's the process that produces verification. A process that starts with imagining the possibilities.

It all begins with "making stuff up".... for your beloved science, too.

You seem determined to miss my point, so I think I'm done here.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There are several different things to unpack here.

First, an n-dimensional manifold is one that looks like n-dimensional Euclidean space 'up close'.

So, the surface of the Earth looks flat' close up, in other words like a 2-dimensional plane. So the surface of a sphere is a *2* dimensional manifold. Another way to see this is that it takes two coordinates (latitude and longitude) to locate a point on the surface of the Earth.

Space as we usually think about it 'looks like 3 dimensional Euclidean space' up close, so it is a *3* dimensional manifold. So, it takes 3 coordinates to locate a point in space (1: how far up and down, 2: how far left or right, 3: how far front or back).

Spacetime requires 4 coordinates (3 for space and one for time) to locate a point, so is a 4 dimensional manifold.

Next, if we look at latitude lines on the surface of a sphere, we get circles, which are a 1 dimensional manifold. These 'cross sections' where you fix one coordinate are submanifolds that have a dimension one less that the overall manifold.

So, space at a fixed time is a 3 dimensional submanifold of the 4 dimensional manifold of spacetime.

As another example, if we look at usual 3 dimensional Euclidean space, but use the radius from some point as one of the coordinates (and maybe latitude and longitude for the others), we find the submanifolds to be spheres of 2 dimensions. Furthermore, larger radii correspond to larger spheres.

For an expanding universe, we looks at different cross sections for spacetime at different times. All that it means to be expanding is that the distances in those cross sections are larger at later times.

So, we can look for the 'shape of space' as well as the 'shape of spacetime'. General relativity relates the curvature of spacetime to the density of mass and energy. So, more mass produces more curvature in spacetime.

The pictures you showed are 2 dimensional *analogies* for 3 dimensional space as cross sections of 4 dimensional spacetime. The balloon analogy is also a 2 dimensional analogy for 3 dimensional space.

Next, a sphere is said to be 'positively curved' and a saddle shape is 'negatively curved'. These describe 2 dimensional manifolds, but there are analogous concepts for higher dimensional manifolds. Under general relativity and in a uniform universe, the curvature of space changes over time as the universe expands. This curvature is related directly to the expansion factor.

Extensive measurements have been made over the last century or so to determine whether space is positively curved, negatively curved, of not curved at all. What we have found is that the curvature is too small to detect. Since a very small curvature cannot be distinguished from zero curvature, we don't know which of the three possibilities actually holds. This is one of the great open questions in cosmology. It is important because a positively curved universe is expected to contract eventually, potentially leading to a 'bounce' that can repeat. Zero and negative curvatures don't have that possibility (in the same way).

Mathematicians have classified the 2 dimensional manifolds. We are actively working on 3 dimensional manifolds (the Poincare conjecture is related to this) and we know that there is no way to completely classify manifolds of dimension 4 or higher.
Thanks @Polymath257 for giving us the current scientific view, but the query remains unanswered. Is the sphere (?) of the universe is like a bowl of water with fish (galaxies) swimming in it or there is no water or fish inside the bowl and only on its inner surface? :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
That is way above my pay grade. This is the shape of the universe that I am currently working on:

View attachment 78964
There are alternative theories as well:

geology12.jpg
Vedic Dawns.png

RigVeda: Dawn, Winter

They (Indo-Iranian Aryans) were not describing what supports the Earth, but how seasons occur. The serpent here, Vrita (the most common name) abducts the sun to cause winter. Then Indra kills the serpent and releases the sun to bring spring. Among Zoroastrians, the serpent was Azi Dahak, and its killer, Thraetona.
 
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