Question for Atheists...

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Evidence isn't God. Especially to those who believe in a God.

You think it's all about the physical evidence, because that's what it's all about for you. Then you get frustrated when they don't care about the physical evidence as you do. They have their own non-objective, non-material evidence. And that's more important to them.

All very well, I suppose.

But one gets, after a while, so bloody tired of all the "thoughts and prayers" offered after endless mass shootings, especially of children, when a quick look at the evidence would suggest there might be ways to lessen the need for all those useless "thoughts and prayers." If only...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's possible to know my desires... if I tell you. I can put them in words, but that does not change its nature.

Good job completely ignoring the point made.
Pretending the point wasn't made won't make it go away.
Talk about dodging..................

I don't believe that.

Ow? You don't believe that human beings have souls / spirits / ghosts hiding in their body?
You believe human beings are their body? Body gone = human gone?

Who are you trying to fool?

I know though that scientist agree with the fact that there is spirit, although they call it something else, like electromagnectic fields, etc.

You don't care what scientists think and / or avoid it like the plague, just like you did with the link I provided and which you just didn't even try to address.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I thought it made sense to put strawman against strawman.

Doubling down on the dishonesty again, I see.

At least you admitted that you knew you were posting a strawman.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for someone to post the observation of a small 'dog' evolving to a whale.

Another strawman.
If such an observation existed, evolution theory would be falsified.
The actual theory, that is... not the strawman you pretend it is.

Count on creationists to say these silly things.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

while the sun definitely benefits humans

It surely does.
Although, it's also constantly trying to kill us.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I call it a 'dog'. It doesn't matter.

It kind of matters a lot to be precise when using terminology.
If we all would start using words that mean one thing while pretending it means another, no meaningfull communication would be possible.

Especially in science, where being precise is kind of important.

That's evidence that animals are similar.

Que?

Your belief that it is evidence whales evolved from land animals, is a subjective opinion

No, it's not.
This evidence is objective.
So objective that whale ancestors (much like tiktaalik) have been found by prediction.

, quite similar to what you claim evidence for God, amounts to.

There is no evidence for gods.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It shoudl be pointed out that the genetics shows that certain genes are present in modern whales, but inactivated by mutations. Can you explain why that would be if whales weren't the result of evolution?

//shrugs shoulders and makes blank facial expression while saying:

"...that's just how the designer made it..."

 

[PureX]

All very well, I suppose.

But one gets, after a while, so bloody tired of all the "thoughts and prayers" offered after endless mass shootings, especially of children, when a quick look at the evidence would suggest there might be ways to lessen the need for all those useless "thoughts and prayers." If only...

People believing in God has nothing whatever to do with all those mass shootings. Neither does people not believing in God. Neither does how one worships or ignores evidence. Your frustration is misplaced.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All still subjective.

Genetics is not subjective.
Why on earth would you even suggest otherwise?

Your evolutionary tree tells us as much.

It tells us life is organized in nested hierarchies.
Exactly the pattern that should exist if evolution happened.
Also exactly the last pattern we would expect if species do NOT share a common ancestor.
So "last" that its mere existence actually serves as evidence AGAINST species being created as-is without sharing biological ancestry

Your ideas don't mean the evidence support them.

Proper scientific theories are models from which testable predictions naturally flow.
One such prediction is that life should fall into a nested hierarchy.
It's the opposite of what you are claiming (again)

We have evidence of a creator in the world around us

No

, and the Bible

That's the claim.
Claims aren't evidence. Claims require evidence.

. That evidence paints a different picture from what you believe.

That "evidence" isn't evidence at all and just a bunch of claims with no evidence (which in fact even CAN'T have evidence as they include unfalsifiable / unverifiable claims)

Now you are resorting to reasoning. Subjective. Agreed?

Try "rational".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Doesn't the complexity of so very very many side effects coming together so well spell purpose?

No. But the fact that you go there, does spell an argument from ignorance.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To seek is to look and search. How far would mankind be today if everyone waited for others to serve up everything to be believed, accepted or rejected? True Discovery, along with advancing forward takes work. Wisdom is acquired along the struggles to acquire knowledge.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Our technologically advanced society is the result of people doing research, coming up with explanatory models of certain phenomenon and then providing much evidence and testability for said phenomenon.

Car tech isn't the result of sitting there and "thinking about it".
It's instead the result of thousands upon thousands, millions even, of tests and predictions involving an insane amount of science.
Both for the theoretical models underpinning the tech as well as wear & tear tests of the materials its made from.


Please don't pretend as if that's the same as "sitting there" and "seeking unfalsifiable ghosts" in your own head.

 

[nPeace]

And the plain fact of the matter is, you actually can't "prove" an enormous amount of stuff about the real world. (Formal mathematical and symbolic logic systems provide ways to "prove" much, but as Kurt Godel showed, they are incomplete by definition.)

But what you are failing to notice is that you can provide bucket loads, tanker loads, ocean loads of evidence to suggest that a lot of things, even though you may not be able to "absolutely prove" they are true, are at least worth giving a lot of credence to. Gravity, for example -- we have enough evidence that it works that I'm willing to bet you don't ever attempt to walk of the roofs of tall buildings.

Agreed. God, for example.

Now, when I honestly "don't know," (in the sense that I've just given, not in the sense of being able to formally prove or disprove), I do say so. I do not know how life began (abiogenesis), and with my present level of bio-chemical knowledge, I'm unlikely to ever know. I've read much on the topic, understood a little of it, but cannot say anything dogmatic about it. Evolution, on the other hand, is something that I have studied in depth (again, at my level of scientific sophistication, which is slight compared to those working in the field), and the evidence before my eyes is absolutely overwhelming.

You don't know if God did it either.
However, the evidence for a creator is absolutely overwhelming for billions... perhaps moreso than those who are not sure.
Numbers don't matter though.

But you see -- I actually have been looking at that evidence, while you have been trying desperately to ignore it.

Millions have been looking at the evidence for God, for centuries into the past... which most atheists and atheistic minded in modern times are trying desperately to ignore.

And ignoring something is the world's most perfect means of acquiring no knowledge about it.

Agreed. Glad you do as well.

So let's talk about "purpose." Let's talk about the "purpose" behind all the forest fires last your in the western US, and this year in Canada, and the billions of lives that were casually wiped out, in great fear and agony, and with stupified ignorance of why they were dying. Or the dear caught under a fallen limb, unable to escape, dying slowly of starvation, never understanding what is happening, but in misery all the same.

Did science not give you the purpose?

Let's talk about the "purpose" of the icheumon wasp, and why it has to lay it's eggs in a living creature that will die an agonizing death, instead of in a lump of already dead organic material, which other creatures can do.

Coming up.

Let's talk about the "purpose" of all the parasites that can cause so much misery to both humans and animals -- blindness, terrible diseases, even more terrible deaths.

I heard on the news that they had erradicated Malaria from the U.S., but now it's back.
How do think they did that? It makes sense that human efforts in a positive direction can change a lot of things for the better. Does it not?
Think then of what can be accomplished if every human around the world was educated on how best to make the environment safe... not just for themselves, but for all animals, including what are currently pests.

Ask yourself. Could it be that animals became a danger to man - parasites and all - because on man's lifestyle?
That would answer you questions.
Isaiah 65:25 says,

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,​

The lion will eat straw just like the bull,​

And the serpent’s food will be dust.​

They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.​

This prophecy will happen because all men living at that time, will be taught the way to live with both living things, and the earth.
In that way, nothing will cause harm.
I believe this, as I see overwhelming evidence for it.

For one thing, I see people of all nations being taught by Jehovah, become one with each other, and they are contributing to a clean environment now - by both their lifestyle habits, and their physical efforts, as well as their influences.
For another, Bible prophecy has never failed. I know I can rely on future promises, because the word of God is alive. I see its effects.

...and on and on. If you have time, let me know.

Let's talk about the "purpose" of that most intelligent creature, the octopus -- so very clever, but usually dying as soon as it produces offspring.

Purpose.
We don't know the purpose of every living thing.
It has been assumed by some, that the dinosaur had a purpose in the early earth, but I don't want to speculate on things I cannot know at present.
One thing I do know, is that there is balance in everything.
For example, imagine lions having as much offspring as ants, or mosquitoes. ...and mosquitoes living as long as long as lions.

You see, you can talk about "purpose," but you could not possibly give "God's purpose" for any of the things I've mentioned.

I just did. We always do. JWs that is.
Some people don't listen, but millions who visit our website do.
They understand why God created the earth and living things. They don't think they need an answer for everything.
I wonder which human does. Do you? Do you think man can have an answer to everything?

And if you can't tell me WHAT the "purpose" is, it is only a blind guess on your part that there IS such a "purpose."

It's not a guess, sorry.
People who view the Bible as myth, miss out on a lot of wisdom and knowledge. I can tell you that as a fact.
Jesus knew that. Many lost out because the did not listen to him. Those who did, will not be disappointed.

Nothing more than a blind guess. You don't know THAT it is if you don't know WHAT it is.

Huh?
I don't understand.
Might I suggest though, you ask people things without a priori commitment. It demonstrates open-mindedness and humility - a willingness to learn and be taught.

 

[nPeace]

Doesn't the complexity of so very very many side effects coming together so well spell purpose? Why do you stop looking after effects? Do you take effort to look further?

Ebb and Flow of knowledge: If I were to build a car, there are some things all cars must have, an engine, a way to steer, braking, and a place to sit. Get the idea?

If I were to build a planet for people, what would I need for that? Look around you. Just like a car everything that is needed is here. Everything fits. How many things do you see that do not fit? Doesn't every single thing needed being here reflects Intelligence?

What do you see? If I placed a car in caveman days, the car would have no more purpose than a rock. How many concepts would the caveman be blind to see?

Now mankind can build a car. On the other hand, God is very High Intelligence. High Intelligence would create the entire universe from a single point to unfold or evolve into what we have today and beyond. The real genius comes when not only did God create the universe but God did so in a way that mankind will be able to figure it all out in time.

The knowledge is all here. It surrounds us all. We must all struggle to widen our view and advance our thinking in order that we see far beyond that of a caveman. This is something each must choose for themselves. The knowledge waits to be Discovered not merely believed or accepted!!!

An Action of God: God created the world so that Brains win in the end. Why did God do this? Simple. It fits so very well into God's system at work and the Purpose involved.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Oh, when I was the caveman, I was the one taking it apart to see how it worked in order to Discover the purpose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I like your illustration.

 

[nPeace]

When a car is built, every part has a purpose. The only purpose you might see is that it goes. Now if those parts you see no purpose in suddenly disappear, you are stuck on the side of the road realizing things have purpose that you have no clue about. As long as the car goes, you can still be blind to purpose.

Do you choose to be blind? Why is that?

Let God keep those priceless things with purpose we don't realize keep working at least until we can figure out just how to fix things. It's never fun being stranded in one's ignorance. It makes me want to go Discover something new!! On the other hand, we should not worry. God's system needs these thing to work just as we do.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Yes. Some choose to be blind, and that will be so, until this world comes to an end. I don't mean the earth.

 

[nPeace]

You are forgetting to look at the process. An apple tree will make apples. On the other hand, you can't expect apples when it is a seed or a seedling.

Look closer. It has never been POOF creation. The universe unfolds into what is today and beyond just like that seed will one day bring apples.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Your illustrations are very simple. A child can understand them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

People believing in God has nothing whatever to do with all those mass shootings. Neither does people not believing in God. Neither does how one worships or ignores evidence. Your frustration is misplaced.

When one's first response to every difficulty is to pray and hope for help from "beyond," it doesn't do a lot of good. Without such beliefs, many might be more prone to try and tackle some of these problems ourselves. And if that means getting up off of our tushies and fighting hard to get assault weapons out of the hands of non-military, so be it.

 

[Polymath257]

Agreed. God, for example.

Still waiting for that evidence.

You don't know if God did it either.
However, the evidence for a creator is absolutely overwhelming for billions... perhaps moreso than those who are not sure.
Numbers don't matter though.

True. Those that don't think deeply about the matter don't matter. Those that simply believe and don't question their reasons don't matter. Those that claim evidence and give none don't matter.

Millions have been looking at the evidence for God, for centuries into the past... which most atheists and atheistic minded in modern times are trying desperately to ignore.

And still none have actually presented any of that evidence.

The most that is ever given is a hand wave saying 'look around'. It is never explained how that is evidence.

Well, there is also the numerous cases of bad reasoning (no evidence).

Agreed. Glad you do as well.


Did science not give you the purpose?

Science doesn't assume that there *is* a purpose. That is something that needs to be *concluded* from available evidence (or not, depending on the evidence).

Coming up.


I heard on the news that they had erradicated Malaria from the U.S., but now it's back.
How do think they did that? It makes sense that human efforts in a positive direction can change a lot of things for the better. Does it not?
Think then of what can be accomplished if every human around the world was educated on how best to make the environment safe... not just for themselves, but for all animals, including what are currently pests.

People often ignore evidence and resist teaching. Take the recent experiences with COVID. The evidence was there about what to do. People didn't like it, so didn't wear masks or get vaccinated. We all paid the price.

Ask yourself. Could it be that animals became a danger to man - parasites and all - because on man's lifestyle?

Certainly. Many human diseases came about because of the introduction of farming.

That would answer you questions.

Really? How so?

Isaiah 65:25 says,

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,​

The lion will eat straw just like the bull,​

And the serpent’s food will be dust.​

They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.​

The evidence suggests otherwise.

This prophecy will happen because all men living at that time, will be taught the way to live with both living things, and the earth.
In that way, nothing will cause harm.
I believe this, as I see overwhelming evidence for it.

I see none for the lion living with the lamb in this way. A carnivore will not eat straw. it would be damaging to their health.

For one thing, I see people of all nations being taught by Jehovah, become one with each other, and they are contributing to a clean environment now - by both their lifestyle habits, and their physical efforts, as well as their influences.
For another, Bible prophecy has never failed. I know I can rely on future promises, because the word of God is alive. I see its effects.

...and on and on. If you have time, let me know.

Still waiting for that evidence you claim exists.

Purpose.
We don't know the purpose of every living thing.

And we suspect most have no purpose.

It has been assumed by some, that the dinosaur had a purpose in the early earth, but I don't want to speculate on things I cannot know at present.
One thing I do know, is that there is balance in everything.
For example, imagine lions having as much offspring as ants, or mosquitoes. ...and mosquitoes living as long as long as lions.

And what does that have to do with purpose?

I just did. We always do. JWs that is.
Some people don't listen, but millions who visit our website do.
They understand why God created the earth and living things. They don't think they need an answer for everything.
I wonder which human does. Do you? Do you think man can have an answer to everything?

No. But we can have the answers to more over time. Skepticism and doubt are good things for getting to knowledge.

It's not a guess, sorry.
People who view the Bible as myth, miss out on a lot of wisdom and knowledge. I can tell you that as a fact.
Jesus knew that. Many lost out because the did not listen to him. Those who did, will not be disappointed.

We can read just as well as anyone else. And some myths *do* have wisdom. That doesn't make them factual.

Huh?
I don't understand.
Might I suggest though, you ask people things without a priori commitment. It demonstrates open-mindedness and humility - a willingness to learn and be taught.

OK, I could ask the same of you. Look with an open mind whether the 'God Hypothesis' has evidence or not. Don't make the a priori commitment to the existence of a God and see what the evidence actually says.

 

[Polymath257]

Evidence isn't God. Especially to those who believe in a God.

You think it's all about the physical evidence, because that's what it's all about for you. Then you get frustrated when they don't care about the physical evidence as you do. They have their own non-objective, non-material evidence. And that's more important to them.

And how much importance should the rest of us give that? I would say none.

many, even most, people don't know how to go about getting real knowledge. They just look in a shallow way and then take what feels good. They call that 'feeling good' as 'subjective evidence', when it is just self-delusion. Or they have an experience and interpret it in a way that feels good. They then take that experience as evidence that what makes them feel good is true.

 

[Bird123]

So what? That is a bad analogy since there is no evidence that the Earth was "built'. I do not think that you know how to make a proper analogy or even know what evidence is.

That's whit I see. It's very clear!!

What is it that you are missing?

 

[Bird123]

No, that is only evidence that there are apples and that they have a life cycle. It is definitely not 'PROOF" nor is it even evidence.

Would you like to learn some of the basics of reasoning?

Burden of proof rests on the one who seeks. How can you Discover any proof if you do not seek? On the other hand Believing and Accepting are very different things. Since I do not want people to value believing and accepting, I place Truth in the world and point to where those who seek can Discover the evidence they desire.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!