Question for Atheists...

[Audie]

And how much importance should the rest of us give that? I would say none.

many, even most, people don't know how to go about getting real knowledge. They just look in a shallow way and then take what feels good. They call that 'feeling good' as 'subjective evidence', when it is just self-delusion. Or they have an experience and interpret it in a way that feels good. They then take that experience as evidence that what makes them feel good is true.

Winner frubal

 

[Bird123]

If you look at next to nothing in a complex system, yes, I imagine it might be "very clear." The trick is to look at it all. And that's scary, isn't it?

Yes, indeed!! Look at it all!! How much goes over your head???

The universe is a creation of High Intelligence. How much of it is not understood? How long did mankind watch birds fly and lightning strike before they had a clue of what they were looking at?

There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in?

As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

What is it that you are missing?

I think that you should be asking yourself that question.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Burden of proof rests on the one who seeks. How can you Discover any proof if you do not seek? On the other hand Believing and Accepting are very different things. Since I do not want people to value believing and accepting, I place Truth in the world and point to where those who seek can Discover the evidence they desire.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

No, the burden of proof lies upon the person making a positive assertation. And i doubt if you are seeking truth. A person doing that has to know how to properly test one's beliefs. To do that you have to come up with tests that could show you to be wrong if you were wrong. If y when someone asks you "What test could possibly show that you are wrong?" and you answer "There is no such test." you have then just claimed not to be seeking the truth.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, indeed!! Look at it all!! How much goes over your head???

The universe is a creation of High Intelligence. How much of it is not understood? How long did mankind watch birds fly and lightning strike before they had a clue of what they were looking at?

There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in?

As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Why do you assume we have stopped looking? We have simply stopped looking for things with no evidence. But we are very actively searching for things we *do* have evidence for or where the evidence is inconclusive or where the interpretation is in doubt.

For example, we don't understand the formation of galaxies in detail. We don't understand the nature of dark matter or dark energy. We don't understand neutrinos. And the fact that we don't understand these means we probably don't understand a great deal more.

But to search does not mean you need to looks for dragons in a coffee cup. Nor do you need to search for elves inside of a computer. Being open minded doesn't mean you should let your brain fall out.

You like to say there is purpose everywhere. but what criteria distinguish whether something has a purpose or not? How can you tell if something *doesn't* have a purpose? Is there a test you can do?

The point is that this question is not unique to theology. it also appears when studying other cultures. We need to be able to distinguish those things that happen without human intervention from those that don't. And one of the better criteria is to search enough so that you understand what sorts of things *can* happen naturally, which things are *common* or *rare* naturally, and those things that are very unlikely to happen naturally. Then, we you find something, you can more easily determine whether human intervention is required.

A similar protocol should be adopted when searching for 'purpose'. We *know* somethings have apurpose because humans *give* them a purpose or construct them for a purpose. How can we distinguish those things from others that do not have a purpose? One basic criterion is whether something with a brain (like a human) made them to benefit themselves.

So, when we ask if the sun has a purpose, we don't ask whether it benefits *us*, but whether there is any other agent with a brain (or even consciousness) that is known to exist and had a goal of making the sun. The alternative is that the sun came about through purely natural means with no intelligent intervention.

When looked at in this way, it is clear that the sun came about without intelligent intervention: it is one star among hundreds of billions in our galaxy alone and is not special in any way that is obvious. the conclusion is that the sun has no purpose, even though it certainly benefits the domesticated primates that inhabit a small planet in orbit of the sun.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, indeed!! Look at it all!! How much goes over your head???

The universe is a creation of High Intelligence. How much of it is not understood? How long did mankind watch birds fly and lightning strike before they had a clue of what they were looking at?

There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in?

As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Okay. "It's very clear!!"

What makes birds fly? (And bats, and insects, and some squirrels and snakes that don't so much fly as soar?) Explain the great clarity you have about all of that.

And lightning -- can you explain with great clarity what is making that happen? And when you've done that, can your clarity explain why?

"There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in? As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?"

But from your own words, you are acquiring no "knowledge" whatever! You're just looking at it and saying "wow!" You know, from what I can read in your posts, next to nothing about the reality of all this wonderful "Discovery."

And how is that "very clear?"

 

[Bird123]

Absolutely. Do you?

For example, if, as you claim, the purpose of the sun is to provide energy to the Earth, why is the whole process so wasteful? If a human engineer had made an energy source that is that inefficient (in terms of getting the energy to the purpose at hand, they would be immediately ridiculed as being the worst engineer around.

Life leads to complexity through feedback loops. it takes advantage of side effects in the process of evolution. Again, no purpose is require3d, simply benefit.

Yes, absolutely.

No, things hardly fit at all. For example, the early Earth was quite inhospitable to life. There have been multiple times when life almost went extinct for various reasons. So, the planet as it was originally 'mde' could NOT have been 'for people'. And the fact that it took almost 4.5 billion years to get to people suggests that we are NOT the purpose, but rather a side effect.

That caveman would be amazed at the transportation allowed.

Of course that is the claim. But what is the actual evidence? Considering that humans have only been around for a couple hundred thousand years and the universe is almost 14 billion years old, it hardly seems reasonable to think we are the purpose. Even life seems an unlikely purpose given that the vast majority of the universe is very hostile to life.

Yes, knowledge is all around us. The raw data from which we can understand things is there. We just have to be careful about misinterpretation and reading too much into it (something we civilized apes are prone to do).

Brains win? You must be kidding! Brains are limited to one planet that we know of and are developed to a 'higher' level in only a couple of species.

You seem to think humans are special, but on a cosmic scale we are insignificant in the extreme.


You seem very sure of your position. Are you sure you have been skeptical enough?

Sun wasteful??? It has been burning for billions of years. Sure, it supplies energy for this world, however is that all it does? Look at the changes all around to Discover more. Think multi-angular purpose instead of any single thing. God works on multiple levels with multiple views. I know this from experience. Widen your view. There is much more. There is so much more going on than efficiency. Look for goals and purposes.

Is evolution all that you see? Is evolution everything? There is so much more such as fractals, quantum entanglement and more. One can look at a person and see a body, yet there is so much more to see. DNA and genetics lives beyond the surface. One must widen that view to see beyond that surface. Much more knowledge exists at multiple levels and multiple views.

Early Earth? Can you not see what is going on all around you? Creation is not Poof creation. Things evolve, advance and move forward. Why does God do this? Look for the Purpose!!

A caveman would not be amazed at the transportation. A caveman would not have a clue.

Does Ego make you think it is all about humans?
Humans are Special just like all God's children. Look closer. Humans are just a bit further down the road. There are different levels of knowledge and understanding. How many people could learn what a dog can teach? Ego gets in the way of so much learning.

Brains win is universal universe wide. This fits into universal purpose. Children do learn at different rates. There is no time limit on learning.

Reading too much into things is better than not seeing things at all. Mistakes can be corrected. Choosing to be blind or restrict one's view from all possibilities limits advancement. On the other hand, advancement continues regardless of Ego, blindness or stubbornness. At some point Truth will become important to all.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

You seem to have missed the point entirely.

You are looking at things in the world, asking "how does this help us to survive?" and concluding that answer represents its purpose. This is can never be anything but a baseless assumption (at best). Just like a puddle thinking the hole it's in was made to fit its shape, rather than its shape being the result of the hole it's in.

Put the pieces of the puzzle together with an open mind to all possibilities. I'm not talking about survival. It has never ever been about survival.

That's what I see. It;\'s very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Our technologically advanced society is the result of people doing research, coming up with explanatory models of certain phenomenon and then providing much evidence and testability for said phenomenon.

Car tech isn't the result of sitting there and "thinking about it".
It's instead the result of thousands upon thousands, millions even, of tests and predictions involving an insane amount of science.
Both for the theoretical models underpinning the tech as well as wear & tear tests of the materials its made from.


Please don't pretend as if that's the same as "sitting there" and "seeking unfalsifiable ghosts" in your own head.

Did I ask you to seek ghosts? Seek understanding what is staring you in the face through your free choices.

WIDEN THAT VIEW!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

No. But the fact that you go there, does spell an argument from ignorance.

Look for the Method in the madness rather than fitting it into your box of beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Yes. Some choose to be blind, and that will be so, until this world comes to an end. I don't mean the earth.

The further one walks down the journey; the more one can see. The more one learns and discovers; the faster one walks forward. Since there is no time limit on learning, all the kiddies are going to make it. On the other hand, those that hunger to know, then seek, tend to acquire understanding quicker.

Thanks for your kind words!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Your illustrations are very simple. A child can understand them.

Thanks. I try.

People can be set in beliefs that they like so hard that they can see nothing else. Truth will not always be an agreeable thing, however Truth will lead to the best choices and the best answers.

Each person must choose for themselves what the best answers and best choices really are. I think it is important to place Truth in the world so it is there to be Discovered when people are ready to see. I copy God by doing this. Like God, I make no demands. In time, people will Discover it all for themselves through their free choices.

Thanks for your kind words!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[F1fan]

Put the pieces of the puzzle together with an open mind to all possibilities.

Are you open to the possibility your beliefs are wrong? You ignore criticisms.

 

[PureX]

And how much importance should the rest of us give that? I would say none.

Keep in mind that "the rest of us" agree with their view of "evidence", overwhelmingly. It's you that is in the minority. Maybe it's you that should be reconsidering.

many, even most, people don't know how to go about getting real knowledge.

Well, according to you. But then there's that pesky 'confirmation bias' thing.

They just look in a shallow way and then take what feels good.

That's not "shallow" to them. You seem to have a very hard time grasping that different isn't bad. It's just different.

They call that 'feeling good' as 'subjective evidence', when it is just self-delusion.

Actually, feeling good IS subjective evidence. It's you that isn't able to understand this.

Or they have an experience and interpret it in a way that feels good. They then take that experience as evidence that what makes them feel good is true.

Do you resent other people feeling good? Because you seem to be slandering that condition, here, as if it's something weak or silly. Why is that?

 

[ratiocinator]

Put the pieces of the puzzle together with an open mind to all possibilities.

That's how I concluded that purpose was reading something into the facts, not something evident from them.

I'm not talking about survival. It has never ever been about survival.

Survival, usefulness, whatever, Doesn't change the logic. You concluded that the sun had a purpose in giving energy to the earth, hence life, rather than us evolving to take advantage of the energy available. Zero evidence for purpose.

 

[PureX]

That's how I concluded that purpose was reading something into the facts, not something evident from them.

I'd love to see you explain the reasoning behind that decision. How you determined that an incredibly complex and highly ordered existence exhibits, in your mind, no indication of purpose.

Survival, usefulness, whatever, Doesn't change the logic.

It is exceptionally logical to presume that the result of a complex, organized process is the purpose of the existence of that process. How do you conclude otherwise?

You concluded that the sun had a purpose in giving energy to the earth, hence life, rather than us evolving to take advantage of the energy available. Zero evidence for purpose.

Why are you assuming these two events (the sun and our evolution) are mutually exclusive? Why aren't they both mutually supporting events in the same life-creating process? The result (sentient life) then being the purpose of that process.

 

[ratiocinator]

I'd love to see you explain the reasoning behind that decision. How you determined that an incredibly complex and highly ordered existence exhibits, in your mind, no indication of purpose.

Well, for starters, you need an incredibly complex and highly ordered thing (namely, a mind) to even conceive of purpose, so to suppose that everything that is complex and highly ordered has a purpose is to start on the road to an infinite regress. Then we have the points that have already been made here about the proposed purposes. If the sun's purpose is to supply energy to us on Earth, why does it spew most of its energy off into space? If the purpose of the universe is life, why is almost all of it hostile to life?

It is exceptionally logical to presume that the result of a complex, organized process is the purpose of the existence of that process. How do you conclude otherwise?

What do you even mean by the result when we're talking about nature (the whole cosmos)?

Why are you assuming these two events (the sun and our evolution) are mutually exclusive? Why aren't they both mutually supporting events in the same life-creating process? The result (sentient life) then being the purpose of that process.

Well that's an incredibly anthropocentric view of it all. Why be so arrogant as to suppose we are at all important?

 

[Audie]

Okay. "It's very clear!!"

What makes birds fly? (And bats, and insects, and some squirrels and snakes that don't so much fly as soar?) Explain the great clarity you have about all of that.

And lightning -- can you explain with great clarity what is making that happen? And when you've done that, can your clarity explain why?

"There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in? As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?"

But from your own words, you are acquiring no "knowledge" whatever! You're just looking at it and saying "wow!" You know, from what I can read in your posts, next to nothing about the reality of all this wonderful "Discovery."

And how is that "very clear?"

Left to the " very- clears" you'd still be in the bronze
age.

 

[Audie]

Well, for starters, you need an incredibly complex and highly ordered thing (namely, a mind) to even conceive of purpose, so to suppose that everything that is complex and highly ordered has a purpose is to start on the road to an infinite regress. Then we have the points that have already been made here about the proposed purposes. If the sun's purpose is to supply energy to us on Earth, why does it spew most of its energy off into space? If the purpose of the universe is life, why is almost all of it hostile to life?


What do you even mean by the result when we're talking about nature (the whole cosmos)?


Well that's an incredibly anthropocentric view of it all. Why be so arrogant as to suppose we are at all important?

Why do you think so many people think that way?
How might a psychologist describe it?

 

[Polymath257]

Keep in mind that "the rest of us" agree with their view of "evidence", overwhelmingly. It's you that is in the minority. Maybe it's you that should be reconsidering.

Well, according to you. But then there's that pesky 'confirmation bias' thing.

And that is precisely why I try to show my ideas *wrong*. I look for ways that they fail.

That's not "shallow" to them. You seem to have a very hard time grasping that different isn't bad. It's just different.

I have no difficulty with that whatsoever.

Actually, feeling good IS subjective evidence. It's you that isn't able to understand this.

I know that people claim this. But feeling good isn't *evidence*. It has no bearing on the truth of the idea that makes you feel good.

Do you resent other people feeling good? Because you seem to be slandering that condition, here, as if it's something weak or silly. Why is that?

I have no problem with people feeling good. But feeling good doesn't imply truth. You can feel good and be in a drug induced haze all the time. You can feel good and think that you are the president of the world. Delusions often feel good, but are simply wrong.