Question for Atheists...

[nPeace]

What do you do with people who just say things.

You're asking the wrong guy. A person most guilty of that will just say things.

 

[nPeace]

they were giving a way to think of how large the animal was. They were NOT claiming the animal was a dog or a wolf.

Neither am I claiming the animal was a dog or a wolf.

Not evident in your statements or questions.

Says the guy who says all sorts of things that aren't factual.

Pointing out that you don't understand what you are tlaking about isn't 'demoralizing tactics'. It is a suggestion that you learn a bit more so you can engage in debate.

It's an atheists' tactic with no validity - baseless.

 

[nPeace]

Ow? You don't believe that human beings have souls / spirits / ghosts hiding in their body?
You believe human beings are their body? Body gone = human gone?

Who are you trying to fool?

No. I don't.
My experience with know-it-alls, is that their head swells so large, they can only see what's inside it, which is all they think they know. So they even think they know what everyone believes.
My experience with these individuals, tell me don't even try telling them anything. It's a waste of time. Since anything you tell them will be called dishonest.

 

[nPeace]

Still waiting for that evidence.

...and I think you will be singing that tune until you are dead and buried, Poly.

True. Those that don't think deeply about the matter don't matter. Those that simply believe and don't question their reasons don't matter. Those that claim evidence and give none don't matter.

Huh? ???

And still none have actually presented any of that evidence.

Not true.

The most that is ever given is a hand wave saying 'look around'. It is never explained how that is evidence.

Not true.

Well, there is also the numerous cases of bad reasoning (no evidence).

Not true. If that were true, that applies to the reasoning in science ... which is actually the case, anyway.

Science doesn't assume that there *is* a purpose. That is something that needs to be *concluded* from available evidence (or not, depending on the evidence).

It didn't assume the purpose. It showed the purpose - Mainly human activity and bad practice... which they hope will change.

People often ignore evidence and resist teaching. Take the recent experiences with COVID. The evidence was there about what to do. People didn't like it, so didn't wear masks or get vaccinated. We all paid the price.

No comment on this forum about COVID19.

Certainly. Many human diseases came about because of the introduction of farming.

More than that... but farming was from the beginning, anyway.

Really? How so?

Really? After breaking up the post? Really.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

What evidence?

I see none for the lion living with the lamb in this way. A carnivore will not eat straw. it would be damaging to their health.

What else will not be... Oh great knowledgeable one?

Still waiting for that evidence you claim exists.

...and I think you will be singing that tune until you are dead and buried, Poly.

And we suspect most have no purpose.

I think your suspicions mean little to most of us.

And what does that have to do with purpose?

Remove the balance and see.

No. But we can have the answers to more over time. Skepticism and doubt are good things for getting to knowledge.

More, is not everything. Sorry if that disappoints you.

We can read just as well as anyone else. And some myths *do* have wisdom. That doesn't make them factual.

They aren't myths, simply on the basis that you claim they are.
I'm sure you agree.

OK, I could ask the same of you. Look with an open mind whether the 'God Hypothesis' has evidence or not. Don't make the a priori commitment to the existence of a God and see what the evidence actually says.

Thanks. You don't need to tell me that though.
I haven't done that.

 

[Bird123]

No, the burden of proof lies upon the person making a positive assertation. And i doubt if you are seeking truth. A person doing that has to know how to properly test one's beliefs. To do that you have to come up with tests that could show you to be wrong if you were wrong. If y when someone asks you "What test could possibly show that you are wrong?" and you answer "There is no such test." you have then just claimed not to be seeking the truth.

If one seeks truth, one has the burden of proving one has the truth. If one wants others to believe, then one has the burden of convincing others to believe and accept.

Look at religion. They very badly want others to believe. What am I doing? I am merely placing truth in the world and pointed to where one can discover that truth for themselves. Other's choosing is entirely up to them. Their journey must be theirs.

On my journey to Discovery, I placed a base by which I would not fall below. That base was everything about God must add up perfectly. If it did not, I was wandering from the Real Truth. Open one door and it leads to more doors that can be opened. Put the pieces together and one starts to understand God and what God is doing with this world. God's actions will all add up perfectly and God's actions can not be altered by mankind.

As understanding grows, still one is dealing with beliefs. After all, evidence of the spiritual in a physical world is hard to come by. I had and understood many many of God's actions and choices but I still only had the view, the picture, the understanding.

When one reaches a certain level of understanding, one might just get a visit from God. At this point God will no longer be a belief. This experience is beyond human capabilities of any kind. On the other hand, I think anyone is capable of reaching this level, so I point. I place Truth in the world. I copy God. God places truth and knowledge around us all. It waits to be Discovered. God is hiding nothing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

If one seeks truth, one has the burden of proving one has the truth. If one wants others to believe, then one has the burden of convincing others to believe and accept.

Look at religion. They very badly want others to believe. What am I doing? I am merely placing truth in the world and pointed to where one can discover that truth for themselves. Other's choosing is entirely up to them. Their journey must be theirs.

On my journey to Discovery, I placed a base by which I would not fall below. That base was everything about God must add up perfectly. If it did not, I was wandering from the Real Truth. Open one door and it leads to more doors that can be opened. Put the pieces together and one starts to understand God and what God is doing with this world. God's actions will all add up perfectly and God's actions can not be altered by mankind.

As understanding grows, still one is dealing with beliefs. After all, evidence of the spiritual in a physical world is hard to come by. I had and understood many many of God's actions and choices but I still only had the view, the picture, the understanding.

When one reaches a certain level of understanding, one might just get a visit from God. At this point God will no longer be a belief. This experience is beyond human capabilities of any kind. On the other hand, I think anyone is capable of reaching this level, so I point. I place Truth in the world. I copy God. God places truth and knowledge around us all. It waits to be Discovered. God is hiding nothing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

No, one has the burden of being honest. Very, very few believers can be honest.

 

[Bird123]

Why do you assume we have stopped looking? We have simply stopped looking for things with no evidence. But we are very actively searching for things we *do* have evidence for or where the evidence is inconclusive or where the interpretation is in doubt.

For example, we don't understand the formation of galaxies in detail. We don't understand the nature of dark matter or dark energy. We don't understand neutrinos. And the fact that we don't understand these means we probably don't understand a great deal more.

But to search does not mean you need to looks for dragons in a coffee cup. Nor do you need to search for elves inside of a computer. Being open minded doesn't mean you should let your brain fall out.

You like to say there is purpose everywhere. but what criteria distinguish whether something has a purpose or not? How can you tell if something *doesn't* have a purpose? Is there a test you can do?

The point is that this question is not unique to theology. it also appears when studying other cultures. We need to be able to distinguish those things that happen without human intervention from those that don't. And one of the better criteria is to search enough so that you understand what sorts of things *can* happen naturally, which things are *common* or *rare* naturally, and those things that are very unlikely to happen naturally. Then, we you find something, you can more easily determine whether human intervention is required.

A similar protocol should be adopted when searching for 'purpose'. We *know* somethings have apurpose because humans *give* them a purpose or construct them for a purpose. How can we distinguish those things from others that do not have a purpose? One basic criterion is whether something with a brain (like a human) made them to benefit themselves.

So, when we ask if the sun has a purpose, we don't ask whether it benefits *us*, but whether there is any other agent with a brain (or even consciousness) that is known to exist and had a goal of making the sun. The alternative is that the sun came about through purely natural means with no intelligent intervention.

When looked at in this way, it is clear that the sun came about without intelligent intervention: it is one star among hundreds of billions in our galaxy alone and is not special in any way that is obvious. the conclusion is that the sun has no purpose, even though it certainly benefits the domesticated primates that inhabit a small planet in orbit of the sun.

When you convince yourself to Believe there is no way it is possible, you limit yourself. That which you search could be living in no way it's possible.

Something has no purpose when it does nothing. On the other hand, one must look very closely and many times for one just might be blind to see what the purpose really is.

As I look around, I see very little that does not have purpose. Things have multiple purposes within them by design. Example: The sun has purpose to supply energy for our world. It is also a lesson in fusion and converting matter to energy. The sun places light on distant planets. That sure makes planetary exploration easier in the early and later discovering by science. The sun's light will be a lighthouse from vast distances. Don't you see putting the pieces together brings the understanding forward. Ebb and Flow of knowledge. Look around you and see. Just what is it, what is the purpose, how does it go together, just what is it and why. You don't have to believe in God. It leads to God anyway!!

The universe is not old enough for random chance to create it all. Do you see any half random pieces floating around? No, everything has purpose!! Everything fits!!

Why do you ignore so much? Why do you want God not to exist? I often say I have found no religion that understands God at all. Remember an action of God. God doesn't give out knowledge. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. Religion claims to know it all. They do not search for new knowledge. They do not correct their errors and so much of religion does not add up at all. Based on that how can anyone base God on that?
When one reaches a certain level of understanding, it's so very clear religions reflect mankind more than anything else. That does not mean God does not exist. That means they have not acquired the knowledge yet.

Look around you. Put purpose together. Advance your thinking to High Intelligence. Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. Just what is being built and why? Look closely for it is a MASTERPIECE!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Okay. "It's very clear!!"

What makes birds fly? (And bats, and insects, and some squirrels and snakes that don't so much fly as soar?) Explain the great clarity you have about all of that.

And lightning -- can you explain with great clarity what is making that happen? And when you've done that, can your clarity explain why?

"There is so much knowledge staring us all in the face, waiting to be Discovered. Is it all really in the box you have created for yourself to put it all in? As much as you think you see it all, Look again for there is always much more to Discover. Why have you stopped looking? Do you really think you are done?"

But from your own words, you are acquiring no "knowledge" whatever! You're just looking at it and saying "wow!" You know, from what I can read in your posts, next to nothing about the reality of all this wonderful "Discovery."

And how is that "very clear?"

There is always more to Discover. Do you really think my journey has ended?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Are you open to the possibility your beliefs are wrong? You ignore criticisms.

I am open to all possibilities. On the other hand, lots of what I have Discovered are not Beliefs. As I continue my journey I follow high Intelligence and the math where everything must add up perfectly. Remember, I do not value Beliefs. Beliefs merely point a direction by which I might search for knowledge. Beliefs are not the end. They are the beginning. All those comfortable beliefs will not always be true. Truth will not always be an agreeable thing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

That's how I concluded that purpose was reading something into the facts, not something evident from them.


Survival, usefulness, whatever, Doesn't change the logic. You concluded that the sun had a purpose in giving energy to the earth, hence life, rather than us evolving to take advantage of the energy available. Zero evidence for purpose.

Take the sun away and you will quickly realize there is purpose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Or something that is indistinguishable from it.



I do that already, by following the evidence. Not by pretending to have the answers before even understanding the questions.




In the hilarious words of richard dawkins: "my mind is wide open, just not SO open that my brains are falling out"

To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. Do you question or merely accept? Do you seek at all? Where is your hunger to know? Do you wait for others to bring everything to you so you can accept or reject it?? Is it strange to have someone pointing to where you can Discover the answers for yourself??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

You keep saying that. And to me, it looks exactly the same as Katnip in the very ancient cartoon. And he was always wrong.

katnip "that sounds logical" - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[YoursTrue]

When you phase your sentences so poorly there is no purpose in giving you an answer. Right now you do not even know enough to ask the right questions.

lol ok

 

[YoursTrue]

What evidence for an alternative do you have?
To be clear, I'm asking for evidence, not beliefs.

Sometimes when archaeologists discover a city they assert it is a relic of Biblical times. For instance, Ancient City of Magdala Unearthed in Israel

 

[F1fan]

I am open to all possibilities.

Excellent.

On the other hand,

Oops, looking for excuses already.

lots of what I have Discovered are not Beliefs.

What you post are beliefs, not facts. That you are confused about this is not unusual for theists.

As I continue my journey I follow high Intelligence and the math where everything must add up perfectly.

None of your posts demonstrate this.

Remember, I do not value Beliefs. Beliefs merely point a direction by which I might search for knowledge.

This is false. You must believe your beliefs are knowledge, and you are not self-aware of yourself believing. Not very impressive to be that lost.

Beliefs are not the end. They are the beginning. All those comfortable beliefs will not always be true. Truth will not always be an agreeable thing.

Beliefs can be a beginning, in that we will make judgments on issues as we learn more evidence and info. At best belief is a temporary substitute for knowledge, and we shoudn't become attached to any belief since it is so prone to error and correction. What you post are fairly shallow and unsupported beliefs, and you offer no evidence or explanation. That's why we reject your claims.

 

[Polymath257]

When you convince yourself to Believe there is no way it is possible, you limit yourself. That which you search could be living in no way it's possible.

Something has no purpose when it does nothing. On the other hand, one must look very closely and many times for one just might be blind to see what the purpose really is.

OK, so you ar eusing a very different definition of 'purpose' than I am. For you, it merely needs to be beneficial or to do some function.

For me, a purpose implies an intelligence directing things.

As I look around, I see very little that does not have purpose. Things have multiple purposes within them by design. Example: The sun has purpose to supply energy for our world. It is also a lesson in fusion and converting matter to energy. The sun places light on distant planets. That sure makes planetary exploration easier in the early and later discovering by science. The sun's light will be a lighthouse from vast distances. Don't you see putting the pieces together brings the understanding forward. Ebb and Flow of knowledge. Look around you and see. Just what is it, what is the purpose, how does it go together, just what is it and why. You don't have to believe in God. It leads to God anyway!!

Not as I have found. In fact, I have found that further searching leads one away from God beliefs and towards more skepticism.

The universe is not old enough for random chance to create it all.

Who said it was produced by random chance? The laws of nature are NOT random. Of course, there is also no evidence they are intended by any intelligence.

You see, the alternatives of 'random chance' and 'designed' are not the only one possible.

Do you see any half random pieces floating around? No, everything has purpose!! Everything fits!!

Actually, I see a LOT of 'random stuff' flying around. Most atoms travel paths that are mostly random. Most quantum events are random.

Why do you ignore so much? Why do you want God not to exist?

I am not ignoring. I am disagreeing. You claim purpose and I see none.

As for God, it very much depends on which of the many Gods humans have imagined. Many of them I certainly *hope* do not exist (say, some of the Aztec deities). Others would be nice if they existed, but I see no evidence of them. My desires one way or the other have little to do with the quality of the evidence.

I often say I have found no religion that understands God at all. Remember an action of God. God doesn't give out knowledge. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. Religion claims to know it all. They do not search for new knowledge. They do not correct their errors and so much of religion does not add up at all. Based on that how can anyone base God on that?
When one reaches a certain level of understanding, it's so very clear religions reflect mankind more than anything else. That does not mean God does not exist. That means they have not acquired the knowledge yet.

perhaps. But then, what *does* provide evidence of a God? At least we can agree that most religions are false.

Look around you. Put purpose together.

But don't assume a purpose without evidence of such.

Advance your thinking to High Intelligence. Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. Just what is being built and why? Look closely for it is a MASTERPIECE!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

And I think I see more and find less. I have searched for several decades and have been in your shoes. I found that i was being self-deluded.

 

[YoursTrue]

When you convince yourself to Believe there is no way it is possible, you limit yourself. That which you search could be living in no way it's possible.

Something has no purpose when it does nothing. On the other hand, one must look very closely and many times for one just might be blind to see what the purpose really is.

As I look around, I see very little that does not have purpose. Things have multiple purposes within them by design. Example: The sun has purpose to supply energy for our world. It is also a lesson in fusion and converting matter to energy. The sun places light on distant planets. That sure makes planetary exploration easier in the early and later discovering by science. The sun's light will be a lighthouse from vast distances. Don't you see putting the pieces together brings the understanding forward. Ebb and Flow of knowledge. Look around you and see. Just what is it, what is the purpose, how does it go together, just what is it and why. You don't have to believe in God. It leads to God anyway!!

The universe is not old enough for random chance to create it all. Do you see any half random pieces floating around? No, everything has purpose!! Everything fits!!

Why do you ignore so much? Why do you want God not to exist? I often say I have found no religion that understands God at all. Remember an action of God. God doesn't give out knowledge. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. Religion claims to know it all. They do not search for new knowledge. They do not correct their errors and so much of religion does not add up at all. Based on that how can anyone base God on that?
When one reaches a certain level of understanding, it's so very clear religions reflect mankind more than anything else. That does not mean God does not exist. That means they have not acquired the knowledge yet.

Look around you. Put purpose together. Advance your thinking to High Intelligence. Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. Just what is being built and why? Look closely for it is a MASTERPIECE!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I'm reading part of this post because it is to me almost like the understanding of electrons, protons, and neutrons. And the facts keep changing over the years and thought. Whether one wants to think of the descriptions as time goes by as facts or concepts is up to each of us but people learn things in school in general and they're taught as true - facts.

 

[dfnj]

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What caused you to stop believing in the supernatural?

Believing in the supernatural is not rational but at one time, I couldn't see that. It seemed the most rational thing in the world to believe in the supernatural. I did so without question. Rational meaning to develop your thoughts based on reason and logic. I suppose I lack a rational mind but didn't know it. The only requirement to be rational, I thought, was to have a brain.

Or perhaps you never believed in them. Good for you. You were born with a more rational mind.

I suspect I kept asking why and how. Perhaps that simply causes one's mind to become more rational overtime.

Facts. The problem with religion is facts. Religion is a construct of language and only exists in people's imaginations or mind space. Facts are what actually happens in reality. In my entire life, as far as I can tell, the laws of physics never falter. Gravity never falls up away from the Earth's surface. Rays from the sun always warm my skin in the exactly same way every time.

Let me put it another way. The day God gives me omnipotent powers to spontaneously create reality at the moment I imagine it, then, and only then, will I accept the existence of God. But until then. I don't believe God exists just because someone else has convinced themselves the words that only exist inside their heads are real.

God is just a word. What the word means is kind of irrelevant since everyone is convinced their own version of what the word means is the one and only correct meaning of the word.

Here's a good proof by induction that God does NOT exist. Since the word God has so many different meanings, one can deduce God is not real. Nobody doubts the existence of apples. Just bite the apple and you know it's real. Oh come on now it's just an apple! Do you honestly think our omnipotent God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about. Of course He knew exactly what would happen.

 

[ratiocinator]

Take the sun away and you will quickly realize there is purpose.

We use the energy from the sun. Life couldn't survive without it. That does not mean its purpose is to provide energy to support life, or that it has a purpose at all. That is epitome of jumping to unsupported conclusions.

Added to which, of course, if it is its purpose, it's a terrible design and the engineering team should be sacked.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Always be be very suspicious of total clarity or certainty.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No. I don't.
My experience with know-it-alls, is that their head swells so large, they can only see what's inside it, which is all they think they know. So they even think they know what everyone believes.
My experience with these individuals, tell me don't even try telling them anything. It's a waste of time. Since anything you tell them will be called dishonest.

I love how you completely avoid being clear about your beliefs and instead decided to go on the offensive with a good ol' ad hominem


Classic.