Question for Atheists...

[mikkel_the_dane]

And yet, there are things outside of the human brain.

...

Then point to them. You are treating an abstract as a concrete. It is called the fallacy of reification.

 

[Polymath257]

Those are not real for the real world as they don't exist indedepenty of your thoughts and feelings. You are doing philosophy yourself.

Huh? Many things exist in the real world *precisely* because they are independent of my thoughts.

 

[Polymath257]

Then point to them. You are treating an abstract as a concrete. It is called the fallacy of reification.

Easy enough. I point to the chair in my room. My brain is in my head that is in a different location than the chair, so they are different things. And you can verify that even if I am not in the room.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Huh? Many things exist in the real world *precisely* because they are independent of my thoughts.

Yeah, you can't point to the real world and if they are truely indepedent of your thoughts you can't know about them.
You are doing philsophy, but you don't understand that.
Just as some people don't understand science, you don't undestand that science is a form of philsophy.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Easy enough. I point to the chair in my room. My brain is in my head that is in a different location than the chair, so they are different things. And you can verify that even if I am not in the room.

How do you know a chair is a thing? I can know what a chair is by describing it, but it doesn't have an observable property of being a thing.

 

[F1fan]

You really should try to get over that. It's a serious intellectual flaw that will stop you from learning new ways of comprehending the mystery of existence. It already is.

If it's a mystery how can it be comprehended? This exposes your real motive, to create confusion and celebrate being confused, as if being confused is profound some how.

Because you're stuck.

A criticism by a guy who champions being confused and mired?

Are you even reading what you're writing? What's silly is that you are asserting that because Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist physically, he's some sort of lesser form of existence (metaphysically).

Really? Fiction is metaphysical?

Your bias for materialism is so profound that you're discrediting even your own assertions.

When all we can confirm existing is material, how is that a bias? It's like saying an acquital at trial is biased because there is a lack of evidence of guilt.

Sherlock Holmes is far more than just physically extant, he's metaphysically extant. He can learn and teach and solve crimes and never die.

That's that advantage of being Holmes, Mickey Mouse, and God. Fiction means they don't have to follow the laws of physics. Some don't understand fiction doesn't describe reality.

The idea and the physical experience are both the moon. They are both real and they both exist equally.

Not real in how you frame it, however.

 

[nPeace]

Take the sun away and you will quickly realize there is purpose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

You don't need to go 93 million miles away... as I'm sure you already know.
a rise in factors, such as pesticide use and urbanization, means that bees are currently in decline, negatively affecting many of the Earth’s ecosystems.
Bees are essential for the health of people and the planet. Honey and other products have medicinal properties, and the role of bees as pollinators makes them vital for food supplies

We all know how bees do their work. We just have to change a few of those traits, or even one, and scientist will probably pray they find one bee that wasn't altered, and see if they can make their own.
...and that's just one of hundreds of examples, demonstrating the wisdom of our creator.

Would you agree with the following?
What may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made...

 

[nPeace]

I am not sure I understand. Do you think we created the God of the Bible?
Or do you mean another God that is even easier to kill?

Ciao

- viole

I mean atheists seem to read the Bible upside down, and then sit and make up things... thus creating their own version of God. "Anything goes, so long as we can kill him".

 

[Polymath257]

Yeah, you can't point to the real world and if they are truely indepedent of your thoughts you can't know about them.
You are doing philsophy, but you don't understand that.

of course I understand that. This is a discussion where philosophy is appropriate.

Just as some people don't understand science, you don't undestand that science is a form of philsophy.

I know philosophers like to think so.

 

[Nakosis]

How do you know a chair is a thing? I can know what a chair is by describing it, but it doesn't have an observable property of being a thing.

By physically interacting with it.

 

[Bird123]

No, one has the burden of being honest. Very, very few believers can be honest.

Yes, people can recite beliefs and want those beliefs to be true so badly. Religions teach followers to spread beliefs and acquire more followers. Some are convinced they are doing good. Others do anything to get followers. Like with most people, it's a mixed bag along with many issues and considerations in order to get the entire picture. Know that everyone is on that journey to Discover what the best choices really are. Clearly, not being honest will not deliver the best results.

Know that I have been totally honest with you.

Remember, it doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Each person's choices show God and the world what they know and what they need to learn. Our choices determine what lessons return.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Excellent.

Oops, looking for excuses already.

What you post are beliefs, not facts. That you are confused about this is not unusual for theists.

None of your posts demonstrate this.

This is false. You must believe your beliefs are knowledge, and you are not self-aware of yourself believing. Not very impressive to be that lost.

Beliefs can be a beginning, in that we will make judgments on issues as we learn more evidence and info. At best belief is a temporary substitute for knowledge, and we shoudn't become attached to any belief since it is so prone to error and correction. What you post are fairly shallow and unsupported beliefs, and you offer no evidence or explanation. That's why we reject your claims.

I have given you facts not beliefs. On the other hand, you will see them as beliefs until you choose to seek the evidence for yourself. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to acquire knowledge. I can not do it for you. Your choices and journey have never been up to me. On the other hand, I have placed truth and direction in the world for those who seek and are ready. It is priceless knowledge to those who seek. No one pointed a starting point for me.

Yes, you are right about beliefs. Of course, it is no concern of mine whether anyone accepts or rejects my claim. Free choices are an important part of the system. God places knowledge and truth in the world and allowing total freedom of choice. I merely copy the High Intelligence that is God..

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

OK, so you ar eusing a very different definition of 'purpose' than I am. For you, it merely needs to be beneficial or to do some function.

For me, a purpose implies an intelligence directing things.

Not as I have found. In fact, I have found that further searching leads one away from God beliefs and towards more skepticism.

Who said it was produced by random chance? The laws of nature are NOT random. Of course, there is also no evidence they are intended by any intelligence.

You see, the alternatives of 'random chance' and 'designed' are not the only one possible.

Actually, I see a LOT of 'random stuff' flying around. Most atoms travel paths that are mostly random. Most quantum events are random.

I am not ignoring. I am disagreeing. You claim purpose and I see none.

As for God, it very much depends on which of the many Gods humans have imagined. Many of them I certainly *hope* do not exist (say, some of the Aztec deities). Others would be nice if they existed, but I see no evidence of them. My desires one way or the other have little to do with the quality of the evidence.

perhaps. But then, what *does* provide evidence of a God? At least we can agree that most religions are false.

But don't assume a purpose without evidence of such.

And I think I see more and find less. I have searched for several decades and have been in your shoes. I found that i was being self-deluded.

So often for people God is a feeling thing. A Being capable of creating all this is High Intellect. Keep you eyes open with this in mind. Widen that view and stick to the Math. It is all there waiting to be Discovered.

Understanding changes the view. Maybe, a day will come when you Discover there is order to chaos. It does all add up and the journey never ends. There is just more to Discover.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I'm reading part of this post because it is to me almost like the understanding of electrons, protons, and neutrons. And the facts keep changing over the years and thought. Whether one wants to think of the descriptions as time goes by as facts or concepts is up to each of us but people learn things in school in general and they're taught as true - facts.

You are right. Those facts must always be questioned. Beliefs also must be questioned. especially those long term beliefs people like and hold so tightly onto.

The Journey is ever forward. The questions never end. Everything will add up completely. If it doesn't add up, one lacks understanding or one wanders from the truth. Perhaps the driving force is the need to know. This has always been me.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, people can recite beliefs and want those beliefs to be true so badly. Religions teach followers to spread beliefs and acquire more followers. Some are convinced they are doing good. Others do anything to get followers. Like with most people, it's a mixed bag along with many issues and considerations in order to get the entire picture. Know that everyone is on that journey to Discover what the best choices really are. Clearly, not being honest will not deliver the best results.

Know that I have been totally honest with you.

Remember, it doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Each person's choices show God and the world what they know and what they need to learn. Our choices determine what lessons return.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

And you can't see that that can be a very bad thing?

 

[Bird123]

We use the energy from the sun. Life couldn't survive without it. That does not mean its purpose is to provide energy to support life, or that it has a purpose at all. That is epitome of jumping to unsupported conclusions.

Added to which, of course, if it is its purpose, it's a terrible design and the engineering team should be sacked.


Always be be very suspicious of total clarity or certainty.

I must question. You seem to think you know so much about the sun being a terrible design but what do you really know? You lack the ability to even make one. Perhaps your view will change after a few more Discoveries.

Let's see your engineers make an energy supply that lasts Billions of years. Yes, there is much more to Learn!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I must question. You seem to think you know so much about the sun being a terrible design but what do you really know? You lack the ability to even make one. Perhaps your view will change after a few more Discoveries.

Let's see your engineers make an energy supply that lasts Billions of years. Yes, there is much more to Learn!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

No one made any suns. They are the product of gravity. So your standard is as usual nonsensical. Nor did he say that the Sun was designed. That was your claim. He pointed out that if it was designed it was a very inefficient design.

You appear to be conflating design and results. They are not necessarily one and the same thing.

 

[Bird123]

I question claims. I accept evidence.



You are hinting to a false dichotomy.
You seem to be saying that either one agrees with you or one is not hungry to know anything.
This is ridiculous.

I'm hungry to know. I shall just not accept claims without independently verifiable evidence.
I don't see the point of just believing things. It's a very good way to end up with false beliefs.



The quest for knowledge is a work for the human collective. A single human life time is too short to discover everything for yourself.
Humans are so technologically advanced precisely because we accumulate knowledge.
Why would I not trust a physicist on physics matters over a non-physicist?



It is, when what is being pointed to is indistinguishable from self-brainwashing / self-deception.

I already told you... my standards for belief are higher then that.
Such is not sufficient to convince me about something concerning the external world. Especially not something as extra-ordinary as what is being talked about.

Your quote: The quest for knowledge is a work for the human collective. A single human life time is too short to discover everything for yourself.
My Answer: You have chosen to limit yourself. Why do you do that? Is it easier for others to do the work then convince you to Believe?

It is not about agreement. This is why I say you do not seek.

As for myself, I am placing Real Truth out there. It is not a goal to get agreement. I am pointing. Each makes their free choices. That's part of the system. I make no demands. On the other hand, I do question. What is it that you seek?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

You don't need to go 93 million miles away... as I'm sure you already know.
a rise in factors, such as pesticide use and urbanization, means that bees are currently in decline, negatively affecting many of the Earth’s ecosystems.
Bees are essential for the health of people and the planet. Honey and other products have medicinal properties, and the role of bees as pollinators makes them vital for food supplies

We all know how bees do their work. We just have to change a few of those traits, or even one, and scientist will probably pray they find one bee that wasn't altered, and see if they can make their own.
...and that's just one of hundreds of examples, demonstrating the wisdom of our creator.

Would you agree with the following?
What may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made...

Yes, there are an infinite number of lessons to Learn. You are right. The knowledge stares us all in the face. I heard in some parts of China, they are having to do the pollinating by hand because no bees.

Mankind is a stubborn lot. Worry not!! Adversity will point the way to the best choices. At some point kiddies will learn to clean their rooms. In the meantime, Mankind will advance their medical knowledge trying to cure the health problems caused by pollution.

God is working on multiple levels with multiple views. There really is a lot going on. The dynamics of God's system are simply amazing. There is so very much being kept up with. Amazing, indeed!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[F1fan]

I have given you facts not beliefs. On the other hand, you will see them as beliefs until you choose to seek the evidence for yourself.

So you think you have special knowledge that only you understand is factual, and the rest of us are clueless? Do you have extrasensory perception, or clarvoyance, or you think yourself some sort of divine being?

Wisdom is acquired on the journey to acquire knowledge. I can not do it for you.

Have you noticed very smart people are not convinced you have wisdom? Do you think you are smarter than everyone else?

Your choices and journey have never been up to me. On the other hand, I have placed truth and direction in the world for those who seek and are ready. It is priceless knowledge to those who seek. No one pointed a starting point for me.

You sound like a self-appointed Jesus. How many people have you brought to your idea of truth. There has been none on RF, and there are many who are believers. What explains your underacheivement? Why aren't you getting through to people?

Yes, you are right about beliefs. Of course, it is no concern of mine whether anyone accepts or rejects my claim.

Yet you accuse others of not getting something that you claim to get. You don't articulate that you have any wisdom or svecial knowledge at all. It's like your talent is bluffing, but no one buys it.

Free choices are an important part of the system. God places knowledge and truth in the world and allowing total freedom of choice. I merely copy the High Intelligence that is God..

Gods aren't known to exist. Demonstrate a God exists, first, then demonstrate that it tells us anything as you claim. We won;t take your word for it, and you know this. Your disrespect is a bad habit. Have you no control over your contempt for us?