Question for Christians and those Who Believe in a Personal God

[Rational Agnostic]

I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality? Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all. However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god. I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary. I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I find it suspect that you would create such a thread in a debate venue if you weren't interested in a bit more than just hearing theists' reasons for believing in a personal deity.

Though I'm not a theist, I do have an opinion on this, but I won't share it in a debate venue, because experiences with a personal deity isn't usually an objective experience.

Perhaps a few theists may respond to this, but I suspect most probably aren't willing to have their relationship with their deity(ies) subject to scrutiny by way of refutation or debate.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I find it suspect that you would create such a thread in a debate venue if you weren't interested in a bit more than just hearing theists' reasons for believing in a personal deity.

Though I'm not a theist, I do have an opinion on this, but I won't share it in a debate venue, because experiences with a personal deity isn't usually an objective experience.

Perhaps a few theists may respond to this, but I suspect most probably aren't willing to have their relationship with their deity(ies) subject to scrutiny by way of refutation or debate.

I posted in the debate section because there is a possibility of some discussion/debate happening, but I did not create this thread with the explicit intent of starting a debate. I am genuinely curious about understanding more about theistic beliefs, specifically if most theists' experiences of god are different than my experiences as a Christian, and if there is a mechanism that they use to determine that they are in fact interacting with an objectively real being when saying prayers, reading the scriptures, attending church, etc. I'm also interested in the level of conviction--for theists who are 100% convinced that they are interacting with a real being, I'm curious what (if anything) is different about their experiences than my experiences participating and believing in a religion.

 

[1213]

... Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

Bible and the existence of this life and world convinced me. Bible, because I see things going as told in the Bible.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Bible and the existence of this life and world convinced me. Bible, because I see things going as told in the Bible.

Okay, thanks for the reply. So it sounds like you are convinced mainly because of the Bible but not because you have had any interactions with God that you can clearly demonstrate were in fact interactions with God?

 

[Koldo]

I find it suspect that you would create such a thread in a debate venue if you weren't interested in a bit more than just hearing theists' reasons for believing in a personal deity.

Though I'm not a theist, I do have an opinion on this, but I won't share it in a debate venue, because experiences with a personal deity isn't usually an objective experience.

Perhaps a few theists may respond to this, but I suspect most probably aren't willing to have their relationship with their deity(ies) subject to scrutiny by way of refutation or debate.

All the more reason to suspect they are being irrational.

I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality? Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all. However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god. I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary. I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.

The ability to act rationally in one area of our lives doesn't translate into also acting rationally in other areas.

 

[SalixIncendium]

All the more reason to suspect they are being irrational.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

 

[Koldo]

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Demonstrating what exactly?

 

[Kenny]

I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality?

Not really.

Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

That would be extensive. From the marriage that was healed within 24 hours, to healings, provisions beyond coincidences, and others.

I remember when I knew I had to change jobs but wasn’t sure selling Canon memory typewrites was the vehicle that God wanted to use so I tried it on my days off.

Having exited my car with the $2,000+ piece of equipment, I started walking towards the businesses in an L-shaped shopping strip. Probably walked half way towards them when the thought occurred to me that these small businesses wouldn’t be able to afford the electronic typewriter I was offering and turned around to go back to my car.

I happened to be worshipping God at that moment and closed my eyes. I saw letters in an arc shape when I closed my eyes.

Surprised, I turned around and looked at the businesses and saw an Insurance business with its words in an arc shaped. Do be honest, I was somewhat in unbelief.

Going to the business, I found out they were about to close on a similar typewriter made by Olivetti. They ended up buying mine and I knew that God was leading me to leave the job I had to work for this company.

The probability of all those points to converging at that moment was too much to be relegated to happenstance.

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all. However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god. I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary. I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

I can’t say why that would be. Usually, I can figure the reasons why my situations didn’t work out… but that is particular to my circumstances and it would vary person to person.

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.

Open to any questions you may have

 

[PureX]

I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality? Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

I think we need to clear a few misconception up, here, first. The main one being that there is 'God'; the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. And there is "God"; the interactive image/concept that we hold to in our minds as a functional representation of that great existential mystery.

Also, there is God as an abstract ideal and there is God manifesting all around us in the world. Take love for example. There is love as an abstract ideal, and there is love exemplified by the feelings, and words and deeds of ourselves and other around us. So there is no objective vs. subjective God. It's simply all God. Just as love is both a subjective ideal and an objective experience. And or visa vis.

And thirdly, there is God/religious belief, and there is God/religious faith. These are not quite the same things, even though they are constantly being confused and conflated with each other. Belief is a conclusion drawn from some experience, evidence, or reasoning, whereas faith is a choice made in advance of the experience, evidence, or reasoning. Faith is about acting on hope, not believing in "evidence".

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all.

It all depends on what we pray for. If I pray for a calm heart, and a clear mind, and some helpful insight, the act of praying itself will likely bring these factors about. Whereas if I pray for the winning lotto ticket that's very likely not going to be the result. Is it.

However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god.

There are 'true believers' among the theists, and there are 'true believers' among the atheists. Neither of these positions is logical. As neither position can ever be verified by any human being. So they can proclaim it and believe it all they want, but they still cannot ever prove it to anyone. Or even to themselves if they are were to be perfectly logical and honest about it.

Fortunately for you and I, we are not in a position to stand in judgment of their beliefs. They are free to believe as they wish, and there really isn't anything anyone else can do about it.

I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary.

There is another option.

When I was a small child I had a personal experience of God. It was an experience that went far beyond anything my child's mind could have invented to "delude itself". And yet even now, as an adult, I have no way of knowing the 'truth of it'. It is simply inexplicable. Unexplainable. Which leaves me with a choice. The choice of how I will perceive/conceive of this experience: as a valid God-encounter, or as some sort of clever self-deception, or simply as an amazing, wonderful, yet inexplicable experience. I choose the latter because that's my nature. But were it my nature to choose either of the other options, then I would have. Because that would be my in nature, and I need to be who and what and how I am.

And the same is true for your family and friends. Or even for you. God is not verifiable. There is no "evidence" that can give is the answer either way. Even a direct experience of God is still not going to be verifiable. So it ends up always being our choice. Your friends are not "deluded", nor are they lying. They simply experience something that they choose to perceive/conceive of as God. It's a choice that s available to anyone.

I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

Objectivity is a conceptual ideal. It is not a state of being.

God is an idea that finds expression and correspondence in our experience of being. Or it's an idea that doesn't. If it doesn't and you want it to, then change your idea of God.

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.

I personally don't "believe in" things that I can't know to be so. So I am not a "God believer". I can, however, choose to trust in an idea of God that makes sense to me, and that I would hope to be so even though I can't know that it is so. So I'm a theist by faith, ad by choice. Not by belief. And I choose this path because I find that it works far better for me than choosing no faith in God.

And as far as imagination goes, it's what sets humanity apart from all the other life forms on the planet. It's what makes us human. Our imagination is the best thing about us! So yes, I imagine a God that I would like to exist, and I live my life as if that God does exist. And my life if a far better experience becaise of this. So why would I stop? Imagination and faith are my salvation. And will be the salvation of all mankind if enough of us become willing to give it a chance.

 

[LuisDantas]

Demonstrating what exactly?

Apparently that there are people who will call religious beliefs irrational and call that a day.

I have to admit that he has a point.

 

[Koldo]

Apparently that there are people who will call religious beliefs irrational and call that a day.

I have to admit that he has a point.

What does that have to do with what I have said though?

What I was talking about is that if someone doesn't feel comfortable sharing the personal experience that confirms their religious beliefs in front of others that may/will scrutinize them, that's all the more reason to suspect their religious beliefs are irrational. I can easily expand upon this later on, but the most important part is that the ones that actually bother to share their experiences are more likely to have, or at least they believe to have, a better justification for their beliefs.

 

[flowerpower]

I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality? Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all. However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god. I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary. I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.

I'll put it to you nice and reductively

- Religious people believe in hell;

- Spiritual people have been through hell

You may ask for further elaboration (because it's so glib and riddle-like) but that serves as the basis of my answer to your OP for now.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Not really.



That would be extensive. From the marriage that was healed within 24 hours, to healings, provisions beyond coincidences, and others.

I remember when I knew I had to change jobs but wasn’t sure selling Canon memory typewrites was the vehicle that God wanted to use so I tried it on my days off.

Having exited my car with the $2,000+ piece of equipment, I started walking towards the businesses in an L-shaped shopping strip. Probably walked half way towards them when the thought occurred to me that these small businesses wouldn’t be able to afford the electronic typewriter I was offering and turned around to go back to my car.

I happened to be worshipping God at that moment and closed my eyes. I saw letters in an arc shape when I closed my eyes.

Surprised, I turned around and looked at the businesses and saw an Insurance business with its words in an arc shaped. Do be honest, I was somewhat in unbelief.

Going to the business, I found out they were about to close on a similar typewriter made by Olivetti. They ended up buying mine and I knew that God was leading me to leave the job I had to work for this company.

The probability of all those points to converging at that moment was too much to be relegated to happenstance.


I can’t say why that would be. Usually, I can figure the reasons why my situations didn’t work out… but that is particular to my circumstances and it would vary person to person.

Open to any questions you may have

Thanks for the genuine reply and sharing your story. That's an interesting coincidence and again, I am not here to say that you're wrong or did not actually experience God--I really don't know the answer. However, I tend to not be impressed by coincidences and personally don't think that I would attribute that coincidence to God, even if I was a believer at the time it happened. My perspective is that improbable events are bound to happen in life, just because life consists of such a vast number of events, and eventually, with a large enough sample size, something seemingly extraordinary is bound to happen by chance. If you roll a six-sided die 100 times in a row, *any* outcome that you get is VANISHINGLY improbable (1/6^(100)) but that does not mean that this outcome is a miracle. There are definitely things that could convince me that God exists though, coincidences like this just generally do not, especially when for every one seemingly answered prayer there are 1000 unanswered prayers of people, including children, experiencing unspeakable evil, trauma, and sexual abuse. Seems like there are only two explanations: either 1) a seemingly sadistic god exists who randomly answers prayers for certain people in some weird, ambiguous, and convoluted way, while ignoring the vast majority of prayers from people who desperately need help, or 2) No god exists, but given a large enough sample size of scenarios, some improbable coincidences will occur that make it look like a god is answering prayers. To me the latter option makes a lot more sense, especially since all of the answered prayers are ambiguous and never something that *couldn't* be attributed to chance, while the vast number of unanswered prayers are prayers that we would expect to see answered if a loving god actually did exist.

 

[Viker]

Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality?

Yes. I have had moments that I have thought this.

I have, however, had quite a few instances that have lead me to believe they are present.

My father was mysteriously attacked on three separate occasions. One involving ravens swarming his windshield causing him to crash. I had a dream the night before of this same thing happening. I had told my mother then. Several hours after I told her he was in the wreck. We used this event to escape from him. Alcoholic and abusive.

Two of my bullies were hospitalized simultaneously with appendicitis, the same night, two days after I pleaded for someone or something to stop them. I said, and I quote, ".... even the Devil or the Horned one! Someone please help!" I was scared, they'd already beaten me that day. This beating was after school on Friday, the prayer was on a Friday night. They said, ".... it's going to get worse on Monday you little ****** tattle tell." Sunday night they were both admitted to ICU then emergency OR for acute appendicitis.

A dark voice told me to send them get well cards, neatly signed and with slightly horned smiley faces. They recovered quickly. They were confused about the cards. One would later accuse me of being a witch and later attempted self ending. He didn't succeed, fortunately. Corniger won't allow for him to die until it is proper.

Could all just be multiple coincidences. What do you think?

 

[Jimmy]

You lookin to believe?

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for the genuine reply and sharing your story. That's an interesting coincidence and again, I am not here to say that you're wrong or did not actually experience God--I really don't know the answer. However, I tend to not be impressed by coincidences and personally don't think that I would attribute that coincidence to God, even if I was a believer at the time it happened. My perspective is that improbable events are bound to happen in life, just because life consists of such a vast number of events, and eventually, with a large enough sample size, something seemingly extraordinary is bound to happen by chance. If you roll a six-sided die 100 times in a row, *any* outcome that you get is VANISHINGLY improbable (1/6^(100)) but that does not mean that this outcome is a miracle.

Yes, one could view it as a number game. I guess when you add a vision of words in an arc shape - I tend not to think that is a roll of a dice. Add that to the right business at the right time, right product and right shopping strip (it isn’t like everyone is in the market for an electronic tyrpewriter… I’m leaning towards divine intervention.

What would you consider a possible divine connection?

There are definitely things that could convince me that God exists though, coincidences like this just generally do not, especially when for every one seemingly answered prayer there are 1000 unanswered prayers of people, including children, experiencing unspeakable evil, trauma, and sexual abuse. Seems like there are only two explanations: either 1) a seemingly sadistic god exists who randomly answers prayers for certain people in some weird, ambiguous, and convoluted way, while ignoring the vast majority of prayers from people who desperately need help, or 2) No god exists, but given a large enough sample size of scenarios, some improbable coincidences will occur that make it look like a god is answering prayers. To me the latter option makes a lot more sense, especially since all of the answered prayers are ambiguous and never something that *couldn't* be attributed to chance, while the vast number of unanswered prayers are prayers that we would expect to see answered if a loving god actually did exist.

Yes, again, there are multiple ways to interpret what happens.

I find, as a third option, that most unanswered prayers are prayers out of not understanding. Like the person who prays to be free from debt while he spends without restraint.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Yes, one could view it as a number game. I guess when you add a vision of words in an arc shape - I tend not to think that is a roll of a dice. Add that to the right business at the right time, right product and right shopping strip (it isn’t like everyone is in the market for an electronic tyrpewriter… I’m leaning towards divine intervention.

What would you consider a possible divine connection?


Yes, again, there are multiple ways to interpret what happens.

I find that most unanswered prayers are prayers out of not understanding. Like the person who prays to be free from debt while he spends without restraint.

Again, I wasn't there and didn't have your experience so I can't say whether or not it was equivalent to a dice roll many times in a row, but it seems to me it could certainly be attributed to chance.

For me, there are many things I can think of that would convince me of the existence of God. Praying in the name of Jesus for a dead body to come back to life would be one. Praying for a severed limb to regenerate and watching it grow back would be another. Praying for God to show himself and hearing God's voice also might convince me, although that one is a little trickier because I might think it was a hallucination if no one else heard it--if other people heard it then I would be convinced. Basically witnessing any miracle that supposedly happened according to the Bible happen in real life would convince me that God exists, or bring me as close to certainty as I could come. But none of this stuff seems to happen. Strange how wildly active God supposedly was before the invention of video cameras or audio equipment, isn't it?

I disagree that most unanswered prayers are prayers out of not understanding. Would you say that to a child who cried out to god over and over while being molested in church and got nothing but radio silence as a response, and now is scarred for life because of it? If God doesn't listen or respond to children crying out for help in those horrific circumstances, fat chance there's a god listening to you or anyone else in my opinion.

 

[Kenny]

Again, I wasn't there and didn't have your experience so I can't say whether or not it was equivalent to a dice roll many times in a row, but it seems to me it could certainly be attributed to chance.

no problem! it was my experience anyway.

For me, there are many things I can think of that would convince me of the existence of God. Praying in the name of Jesus for a dead body to come back to life would be one. Praying for a severed limb to regenerate and watching it grow back would be another.

Yes… that would be impactful. Most people have problems with the first one and simply relegate it to “they weren’t dead in the first place”.

The second also has problems since it isn’t a covenant promise. But it also has the problems of people simply not believing. My friend was born without an eardrum, ear or hole verified by multiple doctors. She received a new eardrum after prayer. Usually I get the response of “Show me the doctor's report!” or “it’s made up”.

Usually, miracles are out of the list of “possibilities” unless you know someone personally or it happens to you.

Praying for God to show himself and hearing God's voice also might convince me, although that one is a little trickier because I might think it was a hallucination if no one else heard it--if other people heard it then I would be convinced.

LOL… so true. I don’t tend to share those types of experiences.

Basically witnessing any miracle that supposedly happened according to the Bible happen in real life would convince me that God exists, or bring me as close to certainty as I could come. But none of this stuff seems to happen. Strange how wildly active God supposedly was before the invention of video cameras or audio equipment, isn't it?

Not really. There is a video where a paralyzed woman began walking. Typical response has been “how much did they pay her?” Would you like me to send you one?

I disagree that most unanswered prayers are prayers out of not understanding.

Ok… again, people see things differently. I would.

Would you say that to a child who cried out to god over and over while being molested in church and got nothing but radio silence as a response, and now is scarred for life because of it? If God doesn't listen or respond to children crying out for help in those horrific circumstances, fat chance there's a god listening to you or anyone else in my opinion.

I personally find those types of situations as reasons to not believe pretty weak. I always wonder where we want those prayers to stop at. Why not also pray drug lords to be non-existent? Or how about praying that there would be no murders? Why not “no wars”. Ultimately, as I see it, we want robots as people

PS

Obviously a horrible situation

 

[Rational Agnostic]

no problem! it was my experience anyway.


Yes… that would be impactful. Most people have problems with the first one and simply relegate it to “they weren’t dead in the first place”.

The second also has problems since it isn’t a covenant promise. But it also has the problems of people simply not believing. My friend was born without an eardrum, ear or hole verified by multiple doctors. She received a new eardrum after prayer. Usually I get the response of “Show me the doctor's report!” or “it’s made up”.

Usually, miracles are out of the list of “possibilities” unless you know someone personally or it happens to you.



LOL… so true. I don’t tend to share those types of experiences.


Not really. There is a video where a paralyzed woman began walking. Typical response has been “how much did they pay her?” Would you like me to send you one?

Ok… again, people see things differently. I would.


I personally find those types of situations as reasons to not believe pretty weak. I always wonder where we want those prayers to stop at. Why not also pray drug lords to be non-existent? Or how about praying that there would be no murders? Why not “no wars”. Ultimately, as I see it, we want robots as people

PS

Obviously a horrible situation

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad we can agree to disagree and still discuss. As far as your friend born without an eardrum goes, I wouldn't dismiss it completely, I am sure you are not intentionally making it up, but I would definitely have more questions. How old was this person at this time? Is it possible that it simply developed late like in infancy or toddlerhood? Is it possible that the doctors misdiagnosed? Again, I'm not dismissing your claim as impossible, but I would want to learn more and explore natural explanations first. And sure, I would be interested in seeing the video, although things like that can and many times have been easily faked, and in that case my default position would definitely be to assume it was fake until proven otherwise, that is, seeing verified official doctor records, friends and family as witnesses, etc. I'm definitely open minded to these things, but I take the default position of skepticism until I see no possibility for a natural explanation.

To address your last paragraph, I agree why *not* pray for no murder, no rape, no war, etc.? I think the reason that people don't pray for these things is because they know deep down their prayers won't be answered--there will always be evil in the world, and there isn't a god out there who is going to stop it. At least, that's my opinion. I disagree with the argument that eliminating people's ability to do evil would make us "robots." You believe in Heaven, right? Presumably in the Christian view, God prevents people from doing evil in heaven, yes? Does that mean that all the people in heaven are "robots" and that life is no good there?