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Question for Christians and those Who Believe in a Personal God

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Rational Agnostic said:
I would like to pose a question to Christians, and anyone who genuinely believes that they have a personal relationship with a god or gods. My primary question is: Have you ever thought that it is possible that this relationship could only exist in your imagination, and not in objective reality? Furthermore, if you are convinced that this god is objectively real and exists outside of your imagination, what are the events that have taken place in your life that have led you to this conclusion, and what demonstrates to you that this god is in fact a real being who answers your prayers and is personally involved in your life on a daily basis, even though others can't see this?

I have a genuine curiosity about this, because there was a time in my life where I could say that I considered myself to be a Christian, however, even during this time, I never actually had any experiences that indicated to me that a god was directly involved in my life or answering my prayers. I prayed multiple times per day as a Christian, in many cases up to 10 or more times per day, but looking back on it, I cannot see even the slightest bit of evidence that there was an all-powerful deity in another dimension who was listening to my prayers and providing answers, or involved in my life at all. However, many of my family members, and many highly intelligent people who I genuinely respect, claim that they *know* with certainty that there is a god that has been involved in their lives and that they have seen and unambiguously felt the presence of God. They are rational, skeptical people in every other aspect of their lives, and say this with utter conviction and certainty and say that they don't understand how anyone could *not* believe in a god. I don't consider myself to be a hardline atheist in the sense that I don't dismiss them completely--it is theoretically possible that they could actually be experiencing a real being that for whatever reason, is impossible for me to detect. However, I think the most likely answer is that they are deluded, as I have not seen any clear and unambiguous demonstration that these experiences are distinguishable from the imaginary. I also think the fact that no Christian can point to a physical location where god exists is strong evidence that he does not exist outside of the mental world--I struggle greatly with understanding the concept of how a being could be objectively real and exist, and yet not exist in a definable, physical location in the universe. How is such a being distinguishable from an imaginary being, and how can we demonstrate the existence of something that only exists in the mental world?

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination. I would also be interested if you admit that there is a slight possibility that your experiences with God could be imaginary, but that you choose to ignore that possibility and choose to have faith that you are in fact communicating with an objectively real being.
Click to expand...
Interesting. What kind of Christian believes God the fattier is physical?
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Question for Christians and "those Who Believe in G-d"

Yes, I believe in One G-d, which is neither Jesus-god nor holy-ghost-god, please, right?
And He neither begets nor is/was begotten, please, right?112:1
Click to expand...
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time of Chapter/Verses 112:1-5 with translation of
English - by Maulawi Sher Ali is given here:

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
112:2
قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
112:3
اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
112:4
لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَلَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
112:5
وَلَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ﴿٪۵
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
www.alislam.org

Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.
www.alislam.org www.alislam.org

Right?

Regards
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
paarsurrey said:
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time of Chapter/Verses 112:1-5 with translation of
English - by Maulawi Sher Ali is given here:

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
112:2
قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
112:3
اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
112:4
لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَلَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
112:5
وَلَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ﴿٪۵
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
www.alislam.org

Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.
www.alislam.org www.alislam.org

Right?

Regards
Click to expand...
I believe that is true. God does not copulate. However He does create and He created a man to be a vehicle for Him.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe you have to show your reasoning. Otherwise you ae just stating an opinion perhaps from a feeling you have.
Click to expand...

Here are what I consider reasonable criteria for a propechy to be considered fulfilled:

1. The prophecy is specific.
2. The prophecy predicts an unlikely event.
3. The prophecy must have been made before the events it describes.
4. The prophecy can't be self-fulfilling.
5. The events described in the prophecy must have actually happened.


The claim that Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53 fails on several points:

- it fails #1: it's so vague it could apply to many people and situations. It's not even clear that it's about an individual.

- it fails #2: unjust trials are a common thing.

- #4 hasn't been established: it's plausible that the Gospel authors were aware of the prophecy and crafted the story of Jesus to be in line with it.

- #5 hasn't been established: it's not clear how much of the Gospel actually happened.

So again: less than compelling.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Here are what I consider reasonable criteria for a propechy to be considered fulfilled:

1. The prophecy is specific.
2. The prophecy predicts an unlikely event.
3. The prophecy must have been made before the events it describes.
4. The prophecy can't be self-fulfilling.
5. The events described in the prophecy must have actually happened.


The claim that Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53 fails on several points:

- it fails #1: it's so vague it could apply to many people and situations. It's not even clear that it's about an individual.

- it fails #2: unjust trials are a common thing.

- #4 hasn't been established: it's plausible that the Gospel authors were aware of the prophecy and crafted the story of Jesus to be in line with it.

- #5 hasn't been established: it's not clear how much of the Gospel actually happened.

So again: less than compelling.
Click to expand...
I bellieve the personal pronouns he and him indicate a person:
(Isa 53:2 [ESV2011])
For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
I believe your assessment of detail is not correct. How many resurrections are there?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death, 10 ...he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I bellieve the personal pronouns he and him indicate a person:
(Isa 53:2 [ESV2011])
For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Click to expand...

That is certainly one interpretation. To make the prophecy not vague, you'd need to establish that it's the only reasonable interpretation.

I gather that Jewish scholars generally hold that "he" refers to the nation of Israel. I'll let you and them decide between yourselves which one of you is correct.

Muffled said:
I believe your assessment of detail is not correct. How many resurrections are there?
Click to expand...

If we believe the Bible, they're pretty common. ;)

OTOH, if we go by the evidence, it seems that "zero" is the most reasonable answer. Remember point #5: along with all the other hurdles, if you can't establish that Jesus was actually resurrected, you definitely haven't established that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy by being resurrected.

Muffled said:
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death, 10 ...he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
Click to expand...

Do you think that these verses can only describe resurrection?

Also, you do agree that the Bible authors would have been aware of Isaiah 53, right?
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Question for Christians and "those Who Believe in G-d"
paarsurrey said:
Yes, I believe in One G-d, which is neither Jesus-god nor holy-ghost-god, please, right?
And He neither begets nor is/was begotten, please, right?
Click to expand...
Muffled said:
I believe that is true. God does not copulate. However He does create
Click to expand...
Welcome to admit ^.

Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time of Chapter/Verses 112:1-5 with translation of
English - by Maulawi Sher Ali is given here:

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
112:2
قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
112:3
اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
112:4
لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَلَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
112:5
وَلَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ﴿٪۵
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
www.alislam.org
Right?

Regards
 
B

Berserk

Member
L jnvite you skeptics to monitor my new developing thread in the Paranormal Experiences section.
Tbat tbread focuses on personal experiences as evidence for a personal God. A follow-up thread will then examine the paranormal verifications of an afterlife from NDEs and ADCs (near-death experiences and after-death communication respectively).
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
paarsurrey said:
Question for Christians and "those Who Believe in G-d"


Welcome to admit ^.

Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time of Chapter/Verses 112:1-5 with translation of
English - by Maulawi Sher Ali is given here:

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ﴿۱
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
112:2
قُلۡ ہُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ ۚ﴿۲
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
112:3
اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ ۚ﴿۳
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
112:4
لَمۡ یَلِدۡ ۬ۙ وَلَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ ۙ﴿۴
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
112:5
وَلَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّہٗ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ ﴿٪۵
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
www.alislam.org
Right?

Regards
Click to expand...
I believe beget is an old word that isn't used mcuh anymore. Does the Arabic word mean produce children by sexual intercourse or not?
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
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