• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Question for Christians and those Who Believe in a Personal God

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
As another example, I remember watching a YouTube video where someone described his experience on a powerful psychedelic plant.
As a survivor of the 60's, I have tales I could tell about that time. But a key piece was told to me by someone. He said that such drugs caused some people to think they experienced God. But the next day they were unchanged and still fought about such things as who was going to do the dishes. The first test is whether or not an experience made a positive change in one's life. So if someone is "never the same" was the change positive where a person became kinder etc or negative in some way. It was once put in a humorous way as "what's the point of turning on all the burners on your stove if you're not cooking anything".
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I think it is being disrespectful. You can read the other posts in that blog, she looks like a serious journalist (a bit leftist and anti-establishment perhaps). This is a typical response from skeptics - they either say that you don't have the evidence or you imagined (hallucinated) it or now that you are lying.

One interesting note, this post has been removed from the Google index - you can type all the keywords in this post, Google will not show this post in the search results, although Google has all of blogspot.com indexed. So, it appears someone specifically asked Google to remove this page from their index - another dedicated skeptic perhaps?

I gave my opinion that a random stranger's random blog post about a supposed miracle that supposedly happened decades earlier that has absolutely zero evidence for it outside of that blog post is hard to believe and sounds made up, and you're saying I'm being disrespectful? You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think that fits the definition of disrespect at all.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I had another reference in my mind but it's late here and I can't remember it. Maybe I'll pull it up later. God sometimes speaks to my soul, sometimes He uses others and sometimes the word or prayer help to illuminate a situation. Same as you recognize the voice of someone in your family, like your mother, God has a distinct way believers recognize him and we know it isn't our minds playing tricks.
No matter what happens to me, God allows it. He always has our best interest in mind.Everything that happens to me has a purpose.
Some thoughts that come to mind are good, some are bad and some are neutral. You can ascribe them to whoever you want.

It's entirely different if I hear an audible voice, see the person's body language or read a message written by the person himself/herself. This is our way to communicate. Created or not, this is how we are.

What happens to me could be fate (God's will) or random events. Or a combination of both. Whatever it is, we can (and we need to) discover purpose in life or create it on our own.
 

Starise

Member
Of course you do, your previous posts indicated that very clearly and obviously. You have a deep-rooted need for absolute certainty and constant reassurance about everything and you turned to a manmade religion to fill that need. That is my opinion. Make of it what you will.
I'll just say stereotypes and generalities abound. I only do genuine. Anything less is less.
 

Starise

Member
Some thoughts that come to mind are good, some are bad and some are neutral. You can ascribe them to whoever you want.

It's entirely different if I hear an audible voice, see the person's body language or read a message written by the person himself/herself. This is our way to communicate. Created or not, this is how we are.

What happens to me could be fate (God's will) or random events. Or a combination of both. Whatever it is, we can (and we need to) discover purpose in life or create it on our own.
I think you pose very good points here.I have never been one to lean on a pretend created reality for myself I can't support. Understandable for anyone who hasn't gone through things or has been through different things, my statements would be seen as questionable and I get that.

We are programmed/wired for certain kinds of communication as humans so that when we try to connect with higher beings there is a sort of block there. Some of the beings are masquerading and are inherently nefarious while the true being we should be connecting with is what I seek. I believe I have found that connection but I also realize it isn't as good as it will be one day..Does that make sense?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Thanks for the reply. I don't doubt your experiences were 100% real to you and genuine, but they don't convince me that the Christian god exists, just as @soulsurvivor 's experiences don't convince me that Sathya Sai Baba was a divine being or interacting with any god/gods, even though I also believe that their experience was real to them. There are many people who have had profound coincidences and seemingly powerful supernatural experiences happen to them and I believe that the majority of these people are genuine and not making up their experiences. There's a lot about existence that we don't know or understand but that doesn't mean that a god is responsible for every (or any) experiences we have that are out of the ordinary. As another example, I remember watching a YouTube video where someone described his experience on a powerful psychedelic plant. He described his experience of consuming this substance, and in the span of only five minutes, he genuinely felt like he lived 30 years in the life of another person. He was born, lived out an entire childhood, fell deeply in love with a woman, got married, had children, and remembered every single intricate detail of this alternate lifetime, and said that it truly felt like three decades of experience, longer than his entire life at the time. And the most striking thing that he mentioned is that this experience of an alternate life, felt infinitely more real than his actual life that he had been living. The experience ended when he died in the alternate life, and he came back to this present reality, screaming and crying on the bathroom floor, realizing that only five minutes had past, and he was never the same again.

You are correct. Miracles can be a calling card but it is not a convincing card. Jesus mentioned a situation where even if someone was raised from the dead, they wouldn’t be convincing. Two people can look at the same evidence and come to two different conclusions.

My point of sharing this crazy story is that I do believe this experience was genuine and real to this person. I also don't believe that this experience actually happened in objective reality outside of his own mind. The human brain is incredibly powerful and able to generate experiences that feel entirely real but in the end, are ultimately most likely just delusions. I am not saying that there is no chance of supernatural things existing, or any of these experiences pointing to something objectively real. But overall, I am skeptical of them.
OK… :)

Have you studied the 4 gospels?

Have you read books on how someone came to believe through rational thinking?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
You are correct. Miracles can be a calling card but it is not a convincing card. Jesus mentioned a situation where even if someone was raised from the dead, they wouldn’t be convincing. Two people can look at the same evidence and come to two different conclusions.


OK… :)

Have you studied the 4 gospels?

Have you read books on how someone came to believe through rational thinking?

Yes, different people have different standards of evidence that it would take to convince them of the existence of a god, I agree. Raising someone from the dead in Jesus' name would be enough to convince me (or get me close to certainty), as would many other things, but I haven't seen those things happen. *If* God exists, he could easily convince me of his existence, but for whatever reason has not done so.

As far as the gospels go, I have read them, yes. Studied to some extent but not as much as some scholars/pastors. I have read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and did not find his arguments to be well-thought out at all. Other than that I haven't read any apologetics books that I can think of.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes, different people have different standards of evidence that it would take to convince them of the existence of a god, I agree. Raising someone from the dead in Jesus' name would be enough to convince me (or get me close to certainty), as would many other things, but I haven't seen those things happen. *If* God exists, he could easily convince me of his existence, but for whatever reason has not done so.

Perhaps because if someone was raised from the dead you can rationally determine he wasn’t dead in the first place? I don’t know. Maybe He has given you evidence and you rationalized it away? I don’t know that either. But, we are where we are today and you are seeking, that’s important enough!

As far as the gospels go, I have read them, yes. Studied to some extent but not as much as some scholars/pastors. I have read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and did not find his arguments to be well-thought out at all. Other than that I haven't read any apologetics books that I can think of.

Perhaps read two book written by atheists that became a believer?

Cold case Christianity would be one. A Case for Christ would be another.

For real mind-bending reading by a Christian but full of facts - Evidence that Demands a Verdict - (Wasn’t a former atheist)

Always open for any questions.

Ken
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Perhaps because if someone was raised from the dead you can rationally determine he wasn’t dead in the first place? I don’t know. Maybe He has given you evidence and you rationalized it away? I don’t know that either. But, we are where we are today and you are seeking, that’s important enough!



Perhaps read two book written by atheists that became a believer?

Cold case Christianity would be one. A Case for Christ would be another.

For real mind-bending reading by a Christian but full of facts - Evidence that Demands a Verdict - (Wasn’t a former atheist)

Always open for any questions.

Ken

Well, evidence is subjective and interpreted by the observer, I'm sure there are some people who could have my life experiences and attribute some of them to a god if they wanted to believe in one badly enough. You would attribute them to Jesus, @soulsurvivor would attribute them to Sathya Sai Baba, Tom Cruise would attribute them to the extraterrestrial guy that scientologists think created the world, and Australian aborigines would attribute them to whatever God/gods they believe in. But my point is that God could convince me he exists or at least bring me as close to certainty as I can get about anything external to my own conscious experience. Raising someone from the dead would be a great way to do it, writing scriptures on the surface of Mars, healing amputees, talking to me and giving me visions of future events that I could never have predicted on my own would also work.


I will definitely consider checking out those books, I'm always open to reading books that challenge my views of reality. Do you read books that challenge your views?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I think you pose very good points here.I have never been one to lean on a pretend created reality for myself I can't support. Understandable for anyone who hasn't gone through things or has been through different things, my statements would be seen as questionable and I get that.

We are programmed/wired for certain kinds of communication as humans so that when we try to connect with higher beings there is a sort of block there. Some of the beings are masquerading and are inherently nefarious while the true being we should be connecting with is what I seek. I believe I have found that connection but I also realize it isn't as good as it will be one day..Does that make sense?
Who programmed us? If there is a Creator wanting to personally communicate with us then this doesn't make sense. Or are you saying we are created with a blockage?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Who programmed us? If there is a Creator wanting to personally communicate with us then this doesn't make sense. Or are you saying we are created with a blockage?
Although I personally believe in God, your question wrongly assumes that someone or something programmed us. There is no reason to assume that.

My own thoughts are that as we become more and more sentient, we have developed a kind of God radar, a sense of the Divine. However this sense is still very primitive and inaccurate, much like an eye that can only see light and dark. This would be the reason that while religion is pretty universal, different people interpret the divine differently. You know, the old "Blind men and the elephant" sort of thing. It is also true that just as some people are born unable to hear or see, not everyone has this God radar.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Does every human being have a conscience? Is the conscience not a “God radar”?
Two comments.

First, no not everyone has a conscience. There are some people whose brains are not formed correctly, either due to womb environment or to trauma, who lack empathy, etc. We call them psychopaths.

And no, a conscience is not the same as my proposed God radar. For example, an atheist can have a fantastic conscience, and yet not sense God at all.
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
Two comments.

First, no not everyone has a conscience. There are some people whose brains are not formed correctly, either due to womb environment or to trauma, who lack empathy, etc. We call them psychopaths.

And no, a conscience is not the same as my proposed God radar. For example, an atheist can have a fantastic conscience, and yet not sense God at all.
Even “psychopaths” are capable of self reflection and making moral judgments, which are actions of the conscience which resides in the mind.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
You are correct. Miracles can be a calling card but it is not a convincing card. Jesus mentioned a situation where even if someone was raised from the dead, they wouldn’t be convincing. Two people can look at the same evidence and come to two different conclusions.
In the East "miracles" are called "siddhis", powers, that one can develop through ascetic practices. There may be a purpose to a miracle in a given time and place with specific people, but in and of itself I don't take them as being important.
Have you read books on how someone came to believe through rational thinking?
...
Perhaps read two book written by atheists that became a believer?

I think I've recommended Dr. Sy Garte's book before but if not, went from atheist to Christian partly due to rational thinking. Sy Garte – Writer, Scientist, Christian has links to articles that speak to the transition from atheist to Christian.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Even “psychopaths” are capable of self reflection and making moral judgments, which are actions of the conscience which resides in the mind.
Treasure, the conscience is the instinctual reaction that we have that something is wrong and not to do it. Psychopaths lack this. They do not instinctually know what is right and wrong. They can learn it the long way around by studying what others think, but the knowledge is never taken to heart. When they harm others, they feel absolutely no remorse. They have no empathy -- they do not hurt when others hurt. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can redeem them. They will take your concern and use it against you.
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
Treasure, the conscience is the instinctual reaction that we have that something is wrong and not to do it. Psychopaths lack this. They do not instinctually know what is right and wrong. They can learn it the long way around by studying what others think, but the knowledge is never taken to heart. When they harm others, they feel absolutely no remorse. They have no empathy -- they do not hurt when others hurt. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can redeem them. They will take your concern and use it against you.
Our first engagement with the conscience comes through the social conscience. Everyone goes through this phase, including future psychopaths. It’s called socialization. If you were able to rewind a psychopath’s life back to when they were a toddler, they look to adults for social cues on right and wrong like any other toddler.

Moral development goes beyond the social conscience, but in rejecting the social conscience, you enter into the chaotic moral wild. Psychopaths get stuck here and stop responding to corrective reality checks. It’s something like that.

It’s useful to realize there are evil people and to not be naive. This is good general advice. Leave the psychopaths to me.
 
Last edited:
Top