Question for Christians and those Who Believe in a Personal God

[Jayhawker Soule]

I gave a list of his awards but like I said I don't really consider awards to be important in terms of who is a good scientist or not.

A couple of quick points:

1. My apologies -- I truly did not notice the list of awards. What was the post number?
2. I, too, don't really consider awards to be important in terms of who is a good scientist or not. But, to be fair, you did not simply suggest that he is "a good scientist," but, rather, that he is "one of the greatest scientists of our generation." I guess our standards differ.

 

[sun rise]

Do you think it is possible for someone to hallucinate an experience of God that is not real? If so, how do you determine which experiences are hallucinations and which experiences are real?

Yes, of course, it's possible. It can be noted as a symptom of mental illness for example. And you ask a very important question because there are too many cases like "God told me to kill him".

Meher Baba indicated this as a way to differentiate:

Now what is the difference between hallucination and spiritual experience? In hallucination you see things, extraordinary things, but never feel blissful or peaceful. This is the only sure sign of differentiating between hallucination and spiritual experience. When it is hallucination, bliss and peace are impossible. In delusion, too, bliss and peace are not possible, but the confusion as to whether it was hallucination or spiritual experience does not remain.

In hallucination, you see strange figures, and yet doubt as to whether they exist or not. In delusion, you take things as existing which really do not exist, but you feel sure they do exist. Hallucination is like a conscious nightmare.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

A couple of quick points:

1. My apologies -- I truly did not notice the list of awards. What was the post number?
2. I, too, don't really consider awards to be important in terms of who is a good scientist or not. But, to be fair, you did not simply suggest that he is "a good scientist," but, rather, that he is "one of the greatest scientists of our generation." I guess our standards differ.

It's all good no worries or need to apologize. It's post number 76 where I listed the awards.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Overall, what I am interested in is hearing your reasoning behind why you believe that your prayers actually are being answered and that there is in fact a god that is communicating with you and involved in your life, and what criteria you use to determine that these experiences are real and distinguishable from a fantasy constructed by your imagination..

I do believe that prayers, made with sincerity, are answered.
The WAY in which they're answered is another matter.
eg. when, what and how

It is the relationship with God, and a congregation that is important.
It is life-changing .. which, imo, is the whole point of worship.
It gives us some protection from evil suggestion, and reminds us of why we are here.

Experience shows me that my faith is not in vain .. I remember what it was like
to be astray in my teens, and can see how fortunate I am to have returned to remembering God.
All praise is for God, Lord of the Universe!

 

[Rational Agnostic]

This is not unique to me. If a someone personally interacted with Jesus (when he was alive), I am sure he would not need anything else to be convinced of the existence of 'the Father'.

As for myself, I have interacted with some persons such as Sathya Sai Baba and that has been enough to convince me (Here is a talk where Sam Harris mentions him

)

The actual Gods by the way are really too busy to intervene in lives of individual humans, in fact they don't even know 90% of humans by name (although they would know all about you if they ever met you). The Gods only act through their agents (or Avatars) such as Jesus. Here is a thesis written on SaiBaba in particular and Avatars in general: Sathya Sai Baba as Avatar: "His Story" and the History of an Idea - CORE Reader

If you are really interested in knowing more, you should read this page: World Organization

What interactions have you had with Sathya Sai Baba? Did you meet him in person or have visions or dreams of him? With all due respect, you do realize that Sam Harris very clearly does not believe that this guy is a divine being and is making fun of him in this video, right?

 

[soulsurvivor]

What interactions have you had with Sathya Sai Baba? Did you meet him in person or have visions or dreams of him? With all due respect, you do realize that Sam Harris very clearly does not believe that this guy is a divine being and is making fun of him in this video, right?

Yes, I have met Saibaba in person (he is dead now) mostly at a distance but multiple times. For many people, just being in his presence (even at a distance, like a hundred feet) is enough to convince them of his authenticity (you could feel the energy coming from him and entering you).

Sam Harris has never met Saibaba and being a rationalist is already somewhat biased (but he seems quite willing and open to take such phenomenon seriously).

 

[soulsurvivor]

What interactions have you had with Sathya Sai Baba? Did you meet him in person or have visions or dreams of him? With all due respect, you do realize that Sam Harris very clearly does not believe that this guy is a divine being and is making fun of him in this video, right?

Here is a story of a 'miracle' related and experienced by a Western journalist that may interest you: The Tale of Sathya Sai Baba and the Three Step Snake

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Yes, I have met Saibaba in person (he is dead now) mostly at a distance but multiple times. For many people, just being in his presence (even at a distance, like a hundred feet) is enough to convince them of his authenticity (you could feel the energy coming from him and entering you).

Sam Harris has never met Saibaba and being a rationalist is already somewhat biased (but he seems quite willing and open to take such phenomenon seriously).

What do you mean by energy coming off of him and into you? What does that feel like?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God is God. Experiences are different. Read or watch "The Blind Men and the Elephant" for a valid metaphor. It's not ambiguity but the reality that our minds cannot experience God's true nature just as an ant cannot experience what it means to be a human. I accept @Kenny 's experiences are utterly valid and his desire to honor and serve Christ as wholly admirable. The woman's experience he describes at satanic would in my frame of reference be malevolent astral entities but the words don't matter - the need for careful discrimination matters.

It raises some red flags for me that you seem to be arguing against reality testing and inter-subjective verification.

 

[soulsurvivor]

What do you mean by energy coming off of him and into you? What does that feel like?

It feels good. The energy is cool and calming, not in anyway oppressive. If you are stressed or in some pain, it can go away. I remember once I had a bad back ache (you have to sit on the floor when you are waiting for him, usually about four hours), the ache vanished when he entered the room. Of course, people like Harris will claim some placebo or psychosomatic effect, but it did happen by whatever mechanism.

 

[sun rise]

It raises some red flags for me that you seem to be arguing against reality testing and inter-subjective verification.

I don't know how you got that because posts have included differentiating hallucinations from spiritual experiences. And what @Kenny has written in this thread and elsewhere has convinced me of their authenticity in his perspective and translatable to imine.

What do you mean by energy coming off of him

In sufism, it's called barakah. Not everyone is sensitive to it. On one trip to India, I was in a bus with companions when a man approached. I had the strong and immediate urge to leave the bus and throw myself at his feet. The feeling then matched other experiences. And naturally, people need to exercise discrimination since charisma can be mistaken for barakah. Charisma is from the personal ego and has some necessary tinge of selfishness. Barakah is like the sun shining - there is no element of the personal self involved.

 

[Kenny]

. Charisma is from the personal ego and has some necessary tinge of selfishness.

True...

but another definition of charisma is the power and working of the Holy Spirit through people with no ego or selfishness involved

Charisma​

khar'-is-mah
Parts of SpeechNoun Neuter

Charisma Definition​

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

 

[sun rise]

True...

but another definition of charisma is the power and working of the Holy Spirit through people with no ego or selfishness involved

Charisma​

khar'-is-mah
Parts of SpeechNoun Neuter

Charisma Definition​

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

I would not call the latter "charisma" but instead a "gift of grace" but I do agree that the Christian use of charisma is different than the psychological use of the word.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

It feels good. The energy is cool and calming, not in anyway oppressive. If you are stressed or in some pain, it can go away. I remember once I had a bad back ache (you have to sit on the floor when you are waiting for him, usually about four hours), the ache vanished when he entered the room. Of course, people like Harris will claim some placebo or psychosomatic effect, but it did happen by whatever mechanism.

Well, we know that the placebo effect can be effective at curing subjective sensations of pain so I don't think we can rule out that conclusion. It's likely what Sam Harris would conclude although I do think he (and myself as well) are more open minded than most atheists. It just strikes me as weird and egotistical that the guy would make you sit on the floor and wait for him for four hours but like I told @Kenny and others, I wasn't there so I can't disprove your experience. It's just hard for me to conceive of.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Well, we know that the placebo effect can be effective at curing subjective sensations of pain so I don't think we can rule out that conclusion. It's likely what Sam Harris would conclude although I do think he (and myself as well) are more open minded than most atheists. It just strikes me as weird and egotistical that the guy would make you sit on the floor and wait for him for four hours but like I told @Kenny and others, I wasn't there so I can't disprove your experience. It's just hard for me to conceive of.

He did not make only me sit and wait. When he was alive, he gave two darshans (audiences) per day - one around 8 am and another around 5 pm. About 1000-3000 attended each session (far more on festival days). People lined up around 4 am for the first one and around 1pm for the second. So, nothing special about me waiting for 4 hours (we all did). He did have among his followers one Indian President, three Prime Ministers, several cabinet ministers, one Chief Justice, many judges, several state governors, movie stars, cricket stars (last is a big deal in India) one queen/princess (some Scandinavian country). Many IAS officers (senior Indian civil servants) joined his organization after retirement. These VIPs of course arrived 10 minutes before the start of the sessions. We mere mortals were quite willing to wait four hours.

 

[sun rise]

He did not make only me sit and wait. When he was alive, he gave two darshans (audiences) per day - one around 8 am and another around 5 pm. About 1000-3000 attended each session (far more on festival days). People lined up around 4 am for the first one and around 1pm for the second. So, nothing special about me waiting for 4 hours (we all did). He did have among his followers one Indian President, three Prime Ministers, several cabinet ministers, one Chief Justice, many judges, several state governors, movie stars, cricket stars (last is a big deal in India) one queen/princess (some Scandinavian country). Many IAS officers (senior Indian civil servants) joined his organization after retirement. These VIPs of course arrived 10 minutes before the start of the sessions. We mere mortals were quite willing to wait four hours.

When I was in India in 2012, we went to the shrine of (Shirdi) Sai Baba. The lines were incredibly long - I think way way more than 4 hours to bow down to his tomb-shrine. We were given VIP access and I think only had to wait in an hour long line. A real festival like the kumbh mela can have over 100 million people attending. Here's an example image and story Kumbh Mela: Lost and found at the world's biggest gathering

 

[Kenny]

Well, we know that the placebo effect can be effective at curing subjective sensations of pain so I don't think we can rule out that conclusion. It's likely what Sam Harris would conclude although I do think he (and myself as well) are more open minded than most atheists. It just strikes me as weird and egotistical that the guy would make you sit on the floor and wait for him for four hours but like I told @Kenny and others, I wasn't there so I can't disprove your experience. It's just hard for me to conceive of.

So, what are you doing to figure out if there is a God or not?

 

[PureX]

God is God. Experiences are different. Read or watch "The Blind Men and the Elephant" for a valid metaphor. It's not ambiguity but the reality that our minds cannot experience God's true nature just as an ant cannot experience what it means to be a human. I accept @Kenny 's experiences are utterly valid and his desire to honor and serve Christ as wholly admirable. The woman's experience he describes at satanic would in my frame of reference be malevolent astral entities but the words don't matter - the need for careful discrimination matters.

That's a very good comment.

My comprehension of @Kenny is very much similar. His is not quite the way I understand or experience what we humans tend to call God, but it IS his. And I both accept it and respect that fully. As a human he may have misinterpreted some things, just as as a human so will I. But God is way more than either of us will comprehend, so I am grateful for the dfferences he can add to my understanding, by sharing his own. To me, this is a very important part of our humanity ... this sharing of our experience of the great and divine mystery of being. And even the atheists among us contribute to this, with their own take on it all.

It's why I appreciate this site as I do.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

So, what are you doing to figure out if there is a God or not?

Sorry I haven't been ignoring you, just been very busy these last couple of days. Well, making this thread was one step in the process. I have given it a lot of thought and will continue to. I agree with others, I can tell that you are definitely genuine and not making these experiences up. But one of the things I wonder about is how much of the experiences are a result of different subjective interpretations of experience. I often wonder if I had your experiences if they would convince me if there was a god or not, and I am not sure if they would or not. I also wonder if you had my life experiences if you would also agree that there's no way to determine with certainty if a god exists or not. I have had a couple experiences in my life that might make you or others who are theistically inclined believe in a god--it didn't occur to me until thinking about them in retrospect that others might interpret them that way. I don't, but that doesn't mean that I am ruling out the possibility of God/gods completely.

 

[sun rise]

But one of the things I wonder about is how much of the experiences are a result of different subjective interpretations of experience. I often wonder if I had your experiences if they would convince me if there was a god or not, and I am not sure if they would or not.

Great point. We interpret experiences according to our nature. @Kenny has experiences that he believes confirm Christianity. Members of other religions interpret their experiences based on their understanding. (Blind Men and the Elephant again). As Rumi said "There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground."