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Question for Evolutionist

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the claim. If you are confused as what this conversation is about please read the preceding posts. I made no claim about creation having more value than evolution.

There are eight pages in which many disparate questions are being asked.

Then why are we talking about it? Are you looking to be told that, in the absence of the tools and knowledge to study and test observations, many people will make inaccurate mythologies to fill the gaps of their knowledge? That traditionalism tends to make people slow to give up those mythologies when they are shown to be inaccurate?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Then why are we talking about it? Are you looking to be told that, in the absence of the tools and knowledge to study and test observations, many people will make inaccurate mythologies to fill the gaps of their knowledge? That traditionalism tends to make people slow to give up those mythologies when they are shown to be inaccurate?

Nope, nothing of the sort. Just read the thread from where this conversation began. Your assumptions about what I'm trying to point out are way off because you don't know where this conversation began.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I will ask you the same question: what does "absolutely overwhelming evidence for it" (which we only have now) have to do with whether or not evolution is more natural and obvious to the uneducated (about evolution) mind?
I don't have a problem with what you might call "the uneducated" in this area because not all people are that much into science. What I do have a problem with is when religious or political figures deny it without either do at least some research or because they feel a need to be p.c. Let me give you an example of the latter.

About 40 or so years ago, I read a book given to me by a Baptist deacon who also used to teach science, and it was entitled something like "Revolt of the Faithful". The author was a Baptist preacher, who also had a t.v. ministry down south and who was appalled at the results of a confidential survey filled out by Baptist pastoral staff and deacons that showed that about 2/3 did accept the basic ToE, but that most of them felt that they could not tell their congregation or conference/convention leaders that because of negative repercussions.

To me, creation accounts were an attempt, and probably an honest one in most cases, to try and explain where we came from, so I don't view them in any kind of negative manner.

Did I answer your question? I'm not certain what you were expecting out of me.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope, nothing of the sort. Just read the thread from where this conversation began. Your assumptions about what I'm trying to point out are way off because you don't know where this conversation began.
Most I'm seeing everyone telling you the same thing. People without the technology or knowledge to look at human origins usually draw wrong conclusions and often fall back on traditional explanations for origins. Re: god(s) made the sky blue like this, god(s) forged lightning like this, god(s) made humans like this.

Maybe you should retool your question?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with what you might call "the uneducated" in this area because not all people are that much into science. What I do have a problem with is when religious or political figures deny it without either do at least some research or because they feel a need to be p.c. Let me give you an example of the latter.

About 40 or so years ago, I read a book given to me by a Baptist deacon who also used to teach science, and it was entitled something like "Revolt of the Faithful". The author was a Baptist preacher, who also had a t.v. ministry down south and who was appalled at the results of a confidential survey filled out by Baptist pastoral staff and deacons that showed that about 2/3 did accept the basic ToE, but that most of them felt that they could not tell their congregation or conference/convention leaders that because of negative repercussions.

To me, creation accounts were an attempt, and probably an honest one in most cases, to try and explain where we came from, so I don't view them in any kind of negative manner.

Did I answer your question? I'm not certain what you were expecting out of me.

That was precisely my point. I will now tell you where this conversation began.

There were a few people on here who were objecting to the term "evolutionist". They felt that since evolution was a proven fact there was no point in calling people evolutionists just like there is no point in calling people Roundists who believe the Earth is flat. I pointed out to them that there are many uneducated people in the world who, as a result of their ignorance gravitate toward the more obvious and natural idea that the humans was created as humans. Then some people began to argue that in fact evolution was the more obvious by pointing out that there is an lot of scientific evidence for it. Of course they were completely missing the point of my initial argument since they did not read the posts from the beginning.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Most I'm seeing everyone telling you the same thing. People without the technology or knowledge to look at human origins usually draw wrong conclusions and often fall back on traditional explanations for origins. Re: god(s) made the sky blue like this, god(s) forged lightning like this, god(s) made humans like this.

Maybe you should retool your question?

What question have I asked?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are no problems with my argument. Let us start from the beginning:
I said: "It is unnatural to the mind to believe that humans were once some other animal"
SkepticThinker said: "It is totally obvious to me that we are animals and that we are related to other animals."
I said: "Being related to other animals has got nothing to do with evolution. All Christians believe both animals and humans were created by the same God. So they all believe we are related. What is often questioned is how we are related."

The question is, if evolution was so obvious, why do so many cultures around the world believe in creation rather than evolution (in the absence of evolution)? Another question, if evolution is so obvious, are you sure 1000 years ago you would have believed in evolution rather than creation? Would you have been the Charles Darwin of the day 1000 years ago?
Thanda, this is a non-fruitful line of discussion. Your initial questions were related to to actual questions about evolutionary theory and is more constructive. The word unnatural is ambiguous. I would say that science, from the very beginning has made discoveries that nobody knew about before (tiny invisible micro-organisms cause disease, planets circle the sun and earth is rotating, all objects fall at the same acceleration regardless of weight, stars are other suns, continents move etc. These things are not intuitively obvious, but in what way are these conclusions unnatural? They are well established by careful observation and testing and there is no difficulty at all in many religious beliefs in accepting these findings as they have no negative impact on that philosophy or theology. Eastern religions treat evolution the same way, evolution of the spirit through animal/plant/human/angelic or Boddhisatva stages has been accepted in these religions for several thousand years (and many aboriginal traditions also accept this) and the discovery of actual physical transformation of the material body by genetic evolution through descent adds an unexpected but welcome addition to this form of theology. To an Indian the teaching of evolutionary theory had had no more import than any other teaching in the science class (like water boils at 100 C). Its just as natural. Frankly I had to work harder to accept the plausibility of atomism, the fact that the earth is round and rotates around the sun than to accept the plausibility of evolution (I was 6 and reading a colorful encyclopedia of science for kids). It is quite clear that what seems natural to believe and not natural to believe depends on the culture one lives in. In a culture that already believes that the universe (in its current incarnation) is at least 4 billion years old, infinite in extent, contain many many inhabited worlds with different non-human but sentient beings, is just one of many other realms that are universes in their own right with their own flow of time, where earth and these worlds manifest living things in multiple forms in accordance with their proclivities that reincarnate again and again, that the earth periodically goes through epoch changing cataclysms that wipe out most life only to re-emerge again in new forms in the next epoch...the shift from such a structure of thought to the modern scientific structure with its 13 billion year old universe (and possible multiverse), 4 billion year old earth, emergence of life through evolution, great extinctions etc. requires no psychological or emotional effort at all (the rational effort of looking at the evidence is still there). There is a reason why modern science and technology has so quickly permeated all of East and South Asia but has difficulty in getting a toehold in the Islamic world, it is because even a very religious Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian and Daoist sees nothing in the findings of physics, chemistry, biology (including evolution, cosmology etc.) that requires her to abandon anything of her faith. In fact its childishly simple to incorporate the understanding of evolution as a dual outcome of chance mutation and orderly natural selection as yet another example of the duet of yin-yang of Dao, Purusa-Prakriti of Hinduism, or the interactions of the aggregates through dependent co-arising in Buddhism.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Thanda, this is a non-fruitful line of discussion. Your initial questions were related to to actual questions about evolutionary theory and is more constructive. The word unnatural is ambiguous. I would say that science, from the very beginning has made discoveries that nobody knew about before (tiny invisible micro-organisms cause disease, planets circle the sun and earth is rotating, all objects fall at the same acceleration regardless of weight, stars are other suns, continents move etc. These things are not intuitively obvious, but in what way are these conclusions unnatural? They are well established by careful observation and testing and there is no difficulty at all in many religious beliefs in accepting these findings as they have no negative impact on that philosophy or theology. Eastern religions treat evolution the same way, evolution of the spirit through animal/plant/human/angelic or Boddhisatva stages has been accepted in these religions for several thousand years (and many aboriginal traditions also accept this) and the discovery of actual physical transformation of the material body by genetic evolution through descent adds an unexpected but welcome addition to this form of theology. To an Indian the teaching of evolutionary theory had had no more import than any other teaching in the science class (like water boils at 100 C). Its just as natural. Frankly I had to work harder to accept the plausibility of atomism, the fact that the earth is round and rotates around the sun than to accept the plausibility of evolution (I was 6 and reading a colorful encyclopedia of science for kids). It is quite clear that what seems natural to believe and not natural to believe depends on the culture one lives in. In a culture that already believes that the universe (in its current incarnation) is at least 4 billion years old, infinite in extent, contain many many inhabited worlds with different non-human but sentient beings, is just one of many other realms that are universes in their own right with their own flow of time, where earth and these worlds manifest living things in multiple forms in accordance with their proclivities that reincarnate again and again, that the earth periodically goes through epoch changing cataclysms that wipe out most life only to re-emerge again in new forms in the next epoch...the shift from such a structure of thought to the modern scientific structure with its 13 billion year old universe (and possible multiverse), 4 billion year old earth, emergence of life through evolution, great extinctions etc. requires no psychological or emotional effort at all (the rational effort of looking at the evidence is still there). There is a reason why modern science and technology has so quickly permeated all of East and South Asia but has difficulty in getting a toehold in the Islamic world, it is because even a very religious Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian and Daoist sees nothing in the findings of physics, chemistry, biology (including evolution, cosmology etc.) that requires her to abandon anything of her faith. In fact its childishly simple to incorporate the understanding of evolution as a dual outcome of chance mutation and orderly natural selection as yet another example of the duet of yin-yang of Dao, Purusa-Prakriti of Hinduism, or the interactions of the aggregates through dependent co-arising in Buddhism.

I might be wrong, and you are welcome to correct me, but the evolution of the spirit from plant to human is unrelated to the physical evolution the human body. That is the beliefs of these eastern religion is that each individual person was once a plant and then progressed (through multiple lifetimes) until they were incarnated as human. Not so? And if so there is the assumption in these religions that even now there are spirits living in plants who in another life may be incarnated as an animal, and then in another life they are incarnated as a human.

For example, if God had descended out of heaven and told these same eastern people that he created them: would it have been difficult, according to their current religions, to accept that?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
You tell me. You seemed to meander and make a lot of questionable claims about what is natural and unnatural and colloquial lay definitions vs technical definitions of technical terms.

I'm definitely not going to tell you. I've asked no question so I not sure why you want me to ask one.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I might be wrong, and you are welcome to correct me, but the evolution of the spirit from plant to human is unrelated to the physical evolution the human body. That is the beliefs of these eastern religion is that each individual person was once a plant and then progressed (through multiple lifetimes) until they were incarnated as human. Not so? And if so there is the assumption in these religions that even now there are spirits living in plants who in another life may be incarnated as an animal, and then in another life they are incarnated as a human.

For example, if God had descended out of heaven and told these same eastern people that he created them: would it have been difficult, according to their current religions, to accept that?
You are mistaking what I am saying. A culture that believes in evolution of a spirit (very roughly) through multiple births finds it plausible to believe in the evolution of life-form through genetic evolution as well. If the science convinces them, they will readily believe it.
You are quite correct that many of the Eastern religions do believe that all life has a spirit (or a psychological stream if you are a Buddhist) in it and that it is reincarnating in various forms over the ages.

Buddhists won't believe that a God created them. Many Hindus believe that God manifested the universe out of His/Her own nature, both spirit and matter. There are pure spirits and pure matter, but spirit and matter can only co-evolve when they are conjoined together in a life form (including plants, animals, humans, demons and lesser gods and beings of other worlds). In general the evolution of the spirit was concentrated on by the religious philosophy while the concurrent evolution of matter was left to the secular philosophies (medicine, biology etc.) . But both evolve. So a theist Hindu will believe in what is called the theistic evolution, that the laws of evolution are manifestations of God's will on how this evolution is taking place.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Buddhists won't believe that a God created them.

Some Buddhists will. There are many Buddhists who believe there is a God. There is even a poster here who is one of them.

But other than that I agree with you. I believe God created the heavens and the earth. I do not believe that the timelines implied in Genesis one are literal. I have no idea how he went about the creation process accept that he directed it for the purpose of creating life and eventually creating us. I believe our spirits come from the presence of God and that we lived and communicated with God as spirit forms. I believe these bodies have been given to us that we may be learn and progress in knowledge, truth, power and righteousness. I believe when we die our spirits continue to exist.

So I have no issues with evolution. I do however have issues with some of the conclusions some people would draw from evolution - that there is no God and all life on earth is just one very lucky accident.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Buddhism does not teach that there is a creator-god, but a great many Buddhists do believe in various deities, but they are considered to be transient, ever-changing, and in most cases not that consequential. When the Buddha was asked if there was a creator-god, his response back was that the question was irrelevant to the here and now.

Exactly how would one go about finding evidence that there is one, btw?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Buddhism does not teach that there is a creator-god, but a great many Buddhists do believe in various deities, but they are considered to be transient, ever-changing, and in most cases not that consequential. When the Buddha was asked if there was a creator-god, his response back was that the question was irrelevant to the here and now.

Exactly how would one go about finding evidence that there is one, btw?

By being open to the possibility of his existence while earnestly searching for the truth. If in pursuing this course one does not find God then even if he exists on the other side he can have nothing against us.

But if by finding evidence you meant how could you objectively prove to other people (scientists perhaps) that there is a God: well you may have to consider that God is interested in being proven to quench people's curiosity, but rather in the honest in heart seeking him that they may find lasting joy and salvation.
 

Midnight Rain

Well-Known Member
There are no problems with my argument. Let us start from the beginning:
I said: "It is unnatural to the mind to believe that humans were once some other animal"
SkepticThinker said: "It is totally obvious to me that we are animals and that we are related to other animals."
I said: "Being related to other animals has got nothing to do with evolution. All Christians believe both animals and humans were created by the same God. So they all believe we are related. What is often questioned is how we are related."

The question is, if evolution was so obvious, why do so many cultures around the world believe in creation rather than evolution (in the absence of evolution)? Another question, if evolution is so obvious, are you sure 1000 years ago you would have believed in evolution rather than creation? Would you have been the Charles Darwin of the day 1000 years ago?
Its not unnatural to think that we came from another animal. There is nothing about that which is unnatural. What you mean to say is intuitive. And even on that front I would argue that intuition and logic is exactly what brought us to that conclusion. From a time of extremely limited information our perspective may have not called for an intuitive understanding of evolution but as we learned more and more about the world around us it does.

For example one might say it is unnatural to think that the earth goes round the sun. I would argue that it is not for exactly the same reasons. People may have thought the sun revolved round the earth due to limited knowledge but once the knowledge was discovered it is the most natural thing to think.


Being "related" specifically has to do with evolution. If we were "created" as humans with no transitional forms then we are not "related" to chimpanzees. Our similarities would have been pure chance rather than actual relation. "God just so happen to create us 98% similar to Chimpanzees." You have already admitted to the relation and similarity. Relation means that we were once one or connected at some point in our history. The similarities are only the first key to acknowledging that. Beyond that and what really seals the deal for evolution being fact is that genetics do in fact function the way we have discovered them to function.

Now as far as "cultures" and "religions" rejecting evolution that is easily explained. You see when they were developed it was at a time when humans attempted to explain the world around them. This came about through a series of stories and mythologies about the universe. Judeo rooted religions are no different. Now during the time you have to realize that these religions were created by man. They were not actually created by god. It was man's best attempt at revelation and understanding of the universe around him. This means that its highly flawed. However in the Judeo world and many of the other cultures that reject evolution (mainly Judeo rooted religions Christianity and Islam) have a built in mechanism that has worked to their evolutionary favor that has now worked against them. They believe themselves to be infallible and actually divinely inspired by god. Which means the explanations of the world and the universe around us as understood by the limited knowledge of ancient bronze age men that were in fact wrong, are taken as truth OVER the observations of science that has continued to provide more accurate explanations of the universe.

Its very much like someone trying to defend a position that is wrong despite all evidence. We've all met people like that in our lives. This is the macro-social version of it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
By being open to the possibility of his existence while earnestly searching for the truth. If in pursuing this course one does not find God then even if he exists on the other side he can have nothing against us.

But if by finding evidence you meant how could you objectively prove to other people (scientists perhaps) that there is a God: well you may have to consider that God is interested in being proven to quench people's curiosity, but rather in the honest in heart seeking him that they may find lasting joy and salvation.
How do you know it is "his existence" and not "their existence" or "none exist"? And how do you know that "God is interested in being proven to quench people's curiosity"?

See, what you are doing is drawing all sorts of assumptions and citing them as if they're facts. That's fine as far as belief goes, but it's not so fine if we start making statements of fact that are literally impossible to verify in any way.

This is where Buddhism has a strength, namely that if something is beyond observation and/or experience, regardless as to whether it's in any of their scriptures or any other's, they should not be assumed. Even the most basic teachings can be questioned and disagreed with if experience/observation takes us in the opposite direction.

However, this is not to say you're wrong as I have no way, nor even any desire, to somehow prove you're wrong. But my point above is to sorta throw a speed-bump in front of you to bring to your attention about how easy it is to have assumptions that we accepted as fact whereas there's really no indication they are facts. To me, it's better to say "I believe in X, but I'm not going to the point of saying X is correct", or take my oft repeated statement of "I don't know". But then, ya probably don't wanna be like me-- and I can understand that. ;)
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Its not unnatural to think that we came from another animal. There is nothing about that which is unnatural. What you mean to say is intuitive.

Having been raised without religious indoctrination I would say that thinking that we are indeed related to the other animals is both natural and intuitive. Just observe a chimp and you can see that we are related.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Its not unnatural to think that we came from another animal. There is nothing about that which is unnatural. What you mean to say is intuitive. And even on that front I would argue that intuition and logic is exactly what brought us to that conclusion. From a time of extremely limited information our perspective may have not called for an intuitive understanding of evolution but as we learned more and more about the world around us it does.

For example one might say it is unnatural to think that the earth goes round the sun. I would argue that it is not for exactly the same reasons. People may have thought the sun revolved round the earth due to limited knowledge but once the knowledge was discovered it is the most natural thing to think.

I don't agree. Without any information (scientific information as we have now) it is illogical to make the assumption that the the earth is moving and the sun is standing still (relatively). Remember logic is always limited by the facts available. Therefore a logical conclusion can lean one way in the presence of facts and another way in their absence.

Being "related" specifically has to do with evolution. If we were "created" as humans with no transitional forms then we are not "related" to chimpanzees. Our similarities would have been pure chance rather than actual relation. "God just so happen to create us 98% similar to Chimpanzees." You have already admitted to the relation and similarity. Relation means that we were once one or connected at some point in our history. The similarities are only the first key to acknowledging that. Beyond that and what really seals the deal for evolution being fact is that genetics do in fact function the way we have discovered them to function.

Now you are stretching it. Something being related to something else has a lot to do with similarities. Is it not the similarities in our DNA that leads scientists to believe we are more related to chimps than frogs? And so it is that mankind has largely believed it was the result of a common creator that has lead to there being physical similarities between species of the world. It was also a practical thing. If I make two ships, each of them will have the common characteristic of being able to float in water. Likewise a creator creating life on earth has the practical problem of insuring all life can live in the conditions that prevail. Thus most if not all animals breath oxygen. Creating an animal that needs helium to breath would have been impractical if not necessarily impossible.

Now as far as "cultures" and "religions" rejecting evolution that is easily explained. You see when they were developed it was at a time when humans attempted to explain the world around them. This came about through a series of stories and mythologies about the universe. Judeo rooted religions are no different. Now during the time you have to realize that these religions were created by man. They were not actually created by god. It was man's best attempt at revelation and understanding of the universe around him. This means that its highly flawed. However in the Judeo world and many of the other cultures that reject evolution (mainly Judeo rooted religions Christianity and Islam) have a built in mechanism that has worked to their evolutionary favor that has now worked against them. They believe themselves to be infallible and actually divinely inspired by god. Which means the explanations of the world and the universe around us as understood by the limited knowledge of ancient bronze age men that were in fact wrong, are taken as truth OVER the observations of science that has continued to provide more accurate explanations of the universe.

Its very much like someone trying to defend a position that is wrong despite all evidence. We've all met people like that in our lives. This is the macro-social version of it.

You are merely confirming everything I have been saying. In the absence scientific information the most logical, natural, intuitive and obvious conclusion is that someone created everything.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Having been raised without religious indoctrination I would say that thinking that we are indeed related to the other animals is both natural and intuitive. Just observe a chimp and you can see that we are related.

Related how though, through having a common ancestor, or through having a common creator?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
How do you know it is "his existence" and not "their existence" or "none exist"?

The first two are irrelevant. We'll see when we get there. The last is my belief according to my life experience, we'll also see when we don't get there if it is a "none exist"?

And how do you know that "God is interested in being proven to quench people's curiosity"?

I actually meant to write that god may not be interested in being proven simply to quench people's curiosity.

See, what you are doing is drawing all sorts of assumptions and citing them as if they're facts. That's fine as far as belief goes, but it's not so fine if we start making statements of fact that are literally impossible to verify in any way.

My assumptions are irrelevant. We all have to start somewhere. If we're honest seekers of truth all will eventually become clear.

This is where Buddhism has a strength, namely that if something is beyond observation and/or experience, regardless as to whether it's in any of their scriptures or any other's, they should not be assumed. Even the most basic teachings can be questioned and disagreed with if experience/observation takes us in the opposite direction.

However, this is not to say you're wrong as I have no way, nor even any desire, to somehow prove you're wrong. But my point above is to sorta throw a speed-bump in front of you to bring to your attention about how easy it is to have assumptions that we accepted as fact whereas there's really no indication they are facts. To me, it's better to say "I believe in X, but I'm not going to the point of saying X is correct", or take my oft repeated statement of "I don't know". But then, ya probably don't wanna be like me-- and I can understand that. ;)

I will always call things as I see them. Even in general matters of life we may say so and so is a good person just from a couple of interactions - we probably can't be 100% sure that they are a good person but they we call it as we see it from the information we have available. So from the information I have available and the experiences I can look to, there is a God. Should further information reveal otherwise than so be it. But I will not refrain from saying there is a God just because there is a possibility that information later on may prove otherwise.

It is similar in many scientific fields. Scientists have once held that Newtonian laws were universal. They claimed this and taught people this. But later other scientists can and showed that there are some phenomena that cannot be explained by Newtonian laws.
 
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