Question for Non-vegetarians.

[chinu]

So you believe that whether or not something deserves to be killed and eaten should be determined by what noise it makes?

Determined by compassion.

 

[chinu]

Naturally humans since before humans evolved from none humans, we have been opportunistic omnivores. Regardless of whether we are humans in the image of God, or just humans evolved over the millennia naturally as you simply human, naturally we ate everything remotely edible. Our digestive systems and the microbial fauna are naturally developed for this diet, and we cannot naturally make B12, therefore they had to get it from animal sources. Actually our Paleo-Neolithic and Neolithic ancestors eat less meat than is believed by many today. It is more hazardous to our health to eat the modern diet high high glycemic carbohydrates like sugar, white flour, corn, and white rice, which is not natural to the human diet.

Vegan diets are the most unnatural and unhealthy, ovo-vegetarian and lacto-vegetarian diets can be complete nutritional diets.

You mean.. its not a crime because dietitian recommend it ?

 

[shunyadragon]

You mean.. its not a crime because dietitian recommend it ?

No dietitians have nothing to do with the issue.

 

[chinu]

No dietitians have nothing to do with the issue.

Okay.

 

[columbus]

If Man killing a Man is Crime.

It isn't always. Sometimes, but it depends on who you ask lots of the time.
I care more about humans killing other humans than humans killing food animals or pests. When we stop killing each other we can better deal with killing animals. Until then I can't get too upset about it.
Tom

 

[Chakra]

I just have to ask @chinu , why put a thread about animal-eating in the religious debates section without mentioning God or religion in the OP? Perhaps you could provide your rationale, or if you are fine with it, move this thread to the General Debates section.

 

[chinu]

It isn't always. Sometimes, but it depends on who you ask lots of the time.
I care more about humans killing other humans than humans killing food animals or pests. When we stop killing each other we can better deal with killing animals. Until then I can't get too upset about it.
Tom

Okay

 

[Tumah]

I mean.
To me it doesn't sounds killing.

Am not talking on the behalf of all. Otherwise there would have been no need of this topic.

Then the question is on you why tou arbitrarily decided that killing animals life is murder but killing plant life isn't.

 

[chinu]

I just have to ask @chinu , why put a thread about animal-eating in the religious debates section without mentioning God or religion in the OP? Perhaps you could provide your rationale, or if you are fine with it, move this thread to the General Debates section.

You are right.

Sorry about that.
I request the moderator to do this for me.

 

[chinu]

Then the question is on you why tou arbitrarily decided that killing animals life is murder but killing plant life isn't.

It sounds to me, rather than I have not decided it.

 

[Chakra]

You are right.

Sorry about that.
I request the moderator to do this for me.

No worries! Which section of the forum would you like me to move it? There is an "Ethics and Morality" section, General Debates Section, and "The Living World" section.

 

[chinu]

No worries! Which section of the forum would you like me to move it? There is an "Ethics and Morality" section, General Debates Section, and "The Living World" section.

Please do one more favour for me. move it into whichever section you feel most appropriate for it.
All three of your suggestions are great.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Chakra]

Please do one more favour for me. move it into whichever section you feel most appropriate for it.
All three of your suggestions are great.
Thanks in advance.

I put it in General Debates so a debate could still be carried out. Everyone, please carry on.

 

[Revoltingest]

Question for Non-vegetarians.

If Man killing a Man is Crime.
Than, why Man killing Animals isn't a Crime ?

It sometimes is.
But it's acceptable for food & sport because it serves our needs.

Just because they cannot speak, or report somewhere ?

If they spoke to us, that would change feelings towards them.

Or you think that they don't want to live ?

Their desire to live is irrelevant.

Or you think that they don't feel pain when you kill them for the sake of taste, or hunger ?

Killing them with minimum pain is a universal goal.

Answer me.

I just did.

 

[Chakra]

Granted I do believe in harsh penalties for those who torture or otherwise harm animals for their own amusement. That's just sick.
I am also not a fan of factory farming or other practices that cause extra harm to animals.

But we're omnivores. Some of us like the taste of meat. In the food chain something inevitably has to die in order for something else to eat and survive.

Maybe it's just me, but the last statement seems to feel a bit contradictory to the first. If you want to ensure happiness and peace for the animals, then why end their lives?

I also don't think that humans are solely restricted or should be restricted to their physiology either.

That includes plants and grass. They may be able to feel pain and grass actually releases a distress chemical when cut in an attempt to get protection. Hence the smell of freshly mowed grass.

Aside from the fact that there are some glaring errors in this assumption that plants supposedly feel pain and have emotions, you should know that animal agriculture requires more plants (and in your case, more plant pain) than if you just ate the plants directly. So to summarize, eating plants only actually saves more plants than eating meat, so if saving plants is one of your top priorities, I suggest you look into this.

It is literally impossible not to hurt something to eat, maybe if you only eat tofu? I dunno. Nature is cruel. We try to be humane about it, which is more than any other animal in existence has ever done. Hell some wild carnivores don't always eat what they kill. Sometimes just torturing prey to death as a bit of "sport."

Tu quoque.

 

[Chakra]

Naturally humans since before humans evolved from none humans, we have been opportunistic omnivores. Regardless of whether we are humans in the image of God, or just humans evolved over the millennia naturally as you simply human, naturally we ate everything remotely edible. Our digestive systems and the microbial fauna are naturally developed for this diet, and we cannot naturally make B12, therefore they had to get it from animal sources.

Which tissue of animals, then, produces B12? No animal can produce B12, and in our current day, there is no need to eat animals products specifically for B12 (who are sometimes fed B12 supplements in the first place!).

Actually our Paleo-Neolithic and Neolithic ancestors eat less meat than is believed by many today. It is more hazardous to our health to eat the modern diet high high glycemic carbohydrates like sugar, white flour, corn, and white rice, which is not natural to the human diet.

I won't disagree with that, but surely one cannot ignore the repercussions of animal products in one's diet.

Vegan diets are the most unnatural and unhealthy, ovo-vegetarian and lacto-vegetarian diets can be complete nutritional diets.

Beg to differ:

American Dietetic Association

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada

A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation

A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

The United States Department of Agriculture

Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

The National Health and Medical Research Council

Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.

The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada

Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

 

[chinu]

It sometimes is.
But it's acceptable for food & sport because it serves our needs.

Literally I was unaware of that, do you think so ?

If they spoke to us, that would change feelings towards them.

Hope you don't want to say that.. Than people could marry them.

Their desire to live is irrelevant.

Or in other words.. Even their desire to take birth is irrelevant.

Killing them with minimum pain is a universal goal.

Next time also take some antiseptics along with, before doing that.

I just did.

Yes, you always do without any failure. I know that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Literally I was unaware of that, do you think so ?


Hope you don't want to say that.. Than people could marry them.


Or in other words.. Even their desire to take birth is irrelevant.


Next time also take some antiseptics along with, before doing that.


Yes, you always do without any failure. I know that.

I'm one of those moral relativists, ie, morality is our creation....nothing absolute.
Morality is just what happens at times & places.
I observe it without judging....mostly.
(I have my personal preferences.)

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

Because, its doesn't sounds killing.

Man killed a plant

Incorrect, they scream, but just not with sounds for your ears.

The smell of grass when you mow? Screaming.

 

[SomeRandom]

Maybe it's just me, but the last statement seems to feel a bit contradictory to the first. If you want to ensure happiness and peace for the animals, then why end their lives?

I believe in humane actions. Animal sacrifice is still sort of a thing in my tradition, but to minimize pain and suffering is still of utmost importance. Not that I necessarily condone the practice, but it exists so. C'est la vie and all that.

Aside from the fact that there are some glaring errors in this assumption that plants supposedly feel pain and have emotions, you should know that animal agriculture requires more plants (and in your case, more plant pain) than if you just ate the plants directly. So to summarize, eating plants only actually saves more plants than eating meat, so if saving plants is one of your top priorities, I suggest you look into this.

It's not, I was just pointing out that nature by its very......well nature is not exactly some hippie that people like to pretend it is. I was mimicking the emotional blackmail inherent in the argument.
And agriculture also prevents animals starving to death. At least where I live. So would you rather they live in the wild unforgiving and literally out to kill everything outback of Australia (for example?)
There are much bigger implications than people seem to want to acknowledge when calling for the killing of meat eating in society, so to speak.
Who are going to take care of the animals? The people who rely on them for income? The trade links we have long established? The economic blow that would be inevitable if people refused meat? It's not as simple as emotional blackmail and appeals of "non vegetarians are killers." There are other factors to consider.

Tu quoque.

Firstly, thanks for teaching me a new word/phrase.
Secondly, how? The implication was that meat eating is unethical. I argue that it's rather relative.