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Question for the Evangelical Community

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Leaving out salvation is preaching a horribly incomplete Christianity.
But the down side of this is that all too many people tend to judge others on that basis.

How many times here at RF do we see people judging others, especially those of other faiths or those who may not be of "the wrong faith". Jesus said "judge ye not...", and Paul said he is not willing to even judge himself, and yet how many "Bible-believing Christians" have we seen going through here claiming that this group and that group ain't going to heaven because...

My usual response to them is to quote Jesus and then encourage them to just let God do the judging.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
But the down side of this is that all too many people tend to judge others on that basis.

How many times here at RF do we see people judging others, especially those of other faiths or those who may not be of "the wrong faith". Jesus said "judge ye not...", and Paul said he is not willing to even judge himself,

Paul also said
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside

and yet how many "Bible-believing Christians" have we seen going through here claiming that this group and that group ain't going to heaven because...
That's no reason to disobey scripture
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: [19] that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. [20] We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

This ministry is for all Disciples of Jesus, not just preachers, but AT LEAST preachers should preach this.


My usual response to them is to quote Jesus and then encourage them to just let God do the judging.
I understand this may seem polite and accepting. But it comes with a side of apathy. Not sharing with someone something that could save them when they're in error, is a lack of love, and contrary to the call of scripture.
John 12:47-50 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. [48] There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. [49] For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. [50] I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--- [7] which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

GalatIan's 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.

Galatians 5:7-12 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? [8] That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. [9] “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” [10] I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. [11] Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. [12] As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

2 Timothy 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: [2] Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage---with great patience and careful instruction. [3] For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [4] They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [5] But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Acts 19:1-5 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples [2] and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” [3] So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John's baptism,” they replied. [4] Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Somebody is going to be wrong, and just leaving them to their fate without sharing the truth with them (out of love and pure motives) is just wrong! By the time they're standing in front of the judgment seat, it's too late.

This is not to say that some aren't misguided, self righteous, and sanctimonious. That needs to be addressed as well, but not by disobeying scripture and by stopping to preach about salvation. That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Somebody is going to be wrong, and just leaving them to their fate without sharing the truth with them (out of love and pure motives) is wrong. It's just wrong. By the tine they're standing in front of the judgment seat, it's too late.
There's a difference between teaching others about one's faith versus judging others who may not be in one's faith. To put it another way, there's a difference between teaching about the issue of "salvation" versus judging others. I don't accuse you of the latter, btw, but there are quite a few people here who do this.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
There's a difference between teaching others about one's faith versus judging others who may not be in one's faith. To put it another way, there's a difference between teaching about the issue of "salvation" versus judging others. I don't accuse you of the latter, btw, but there are quite a few people here who do this.
Thank you. I believe that. What do you see the difference between teaching about issues of Salvation and judging others? Maybe I need a little Clarity on this first. Thank you.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
That helps to understand your viewpoint. Sounds very Zwinglian.

It is incomplete because in the Bible they did preach salvation a lot.


Just come home from our Thursday evening Euchrist. At no time was Salvation mentioned in the service in the prayers, in tthe Bible readings. Or any where else.

Our sevices are always centered on the Eucharist, in rememberance of Christ as he requested.
It is rare for salvation to be mentioned at all in the litergy...

Salvation is about our selves worship is about God.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Just come home from our Thursday evening Euchrist. At no time was Salvation mentioned in the service in the prayers, in tthe Bible readings. Or any where else.

Our sevices are always centered on the Eucharist, in rememberance of Christ as he requested.
It is rare for salvation to be mentioned at all in the litergy...

Salvation is about our selves worship is about God.
Thursday evening? Are you in Europe? If so pleased to make your acquaintance. I like what you said "Salvation is about our selves worship is about God."
The Lord's supper is important, but it's all important.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Zwinglian is new to me...
Anglicans are not Roman Catholics, Anglicans are taught that Jesus is always present at the Eucharist, not in the Host.
However High Church Anglicans do believe as Roman Catholics do in regard to the host.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Zwinglian is new to me...
Anglicans are not Roman Catholics, Anglicans are taught that Jesus is always present at the Eucharist, not in the Host.
However High Church Anglicans do believe as Roman Catholics do in regard to the host.
Thank you for sharing, as far as I understand, the Church of Christ teaches that the Lord's Supper is simply for remembrance and acknowledgement of the body and the blood, in other words, his sacrifice. Zwingli believed that man had no participation whatsoever in his salvation.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Thursday evening? Are you in Europe? If so pleased to make your acquaintance. I like what you said "Salvation is about our selves worship is about God."
The Lord's supper is important, but it's all important.

I am in England. Saddleworth near Manchester to be more precise. I attend Christ Church Friezland.
We celebeate Eucharist on Tuesday mornings, Thursday evenings And Sunday. This sunday the Bishop will be with us to confirm local candidates, so people will be there from all the local churches to celebrate the new members confirmations.
Jesus instituted two Sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist. These have been celebrated in a similar way since the first century as documentad in the Didiche. Though the meaning has changed slightly.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What do you see the difference between teaching about issues of Salvation and judging others?
All scriptures are from subjective sources, therefore one should never assume that they're 100% accurate on all counts. One can quote or paraphrase the NT in terms of the issue of "salvation" while not going so far as to tell others that if they don't believe as one may think that they should believe that they cannot be "saved". If Jesus and Paul teach not to judge, then I don't think others should do it either.

Just my opinion.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
I am in England. Saddleworth near Manchester to be more precise. I attend Christ Church Friezland.
We celebeate Eucharist on Tuesday mornings, Thursday evenings And Sunday. This sunday the Bishop will be with us to confirm local candidates, so people will be there from all the local churches to celebrate the new members confirmations.
Jesus instituted two Sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist. These have been celebrated in a similar way since the first century as documentad in the Didiche. Though the meaning has changed slightly.
Thank you for sharing.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
All scriptures are from subjective sources, therefore one should never assume that they're 100% accurate on all counts. One can quote or paraphrase the NT in terms of the issue of "salvation" while not going so far as to tell others that if they don't believe as one may think that they should believe that they cannot be "saved". If Jesus and Paul teach not to judge, then I don't think others should do it either.

Just my opinion.
in one sense I agree with you, it is not up to 1 or another's opinion on scripture. It is up to the text. Jesus said in John 14:6 that he is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through him. If someone attempts to get to the father through say Hare Krishna, then according to the text, they are not saved. That is not an opinion, that is Jesus's direct teaching. All matters on salvation come to what God wants according to what the text says. If you don't believe all scriptures are true, then that's a different issue.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If you don't believe all scriptures are true, then that's a different issue.
And I don't, and most Christian and Jewish theologians recognize that taking scripture as being inerrant really doesn't make sense. If one does so, they in essence have formed an idol out of the book that elevates an object to a divine level.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
in one sense I agree with you, it is not up to 1 or another's opinion on scripture. It is up to the text. Jesus said in John 14:6 that he is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through him. If someone attempts to get to the father through say Hare Krishna, then according to the text, they are not saved. That is not an opinion, that is Jesus's direct teaching. All matters on salvation come to what God wants according to what the text says. If you don't believe all scriptures are true, then that's a different issue.

Few Christian Churches teach or believe that The Bible is more than inspired By God. They do not believe that it is the word of God or that is totally accurate. If only because it is neither historically accurate nor totally factual.
However as scripture it always contains an element of truth in the messages that it is teaching.

None of the Authors of the Books in the Bible are known for certain, some obviously come from similar sources or are derived from earlier writings. It is certainly wrong to take the text too literally. As if dictated by God.
The most accurat to the the originals are likely to be the letters. As the Authers are known. And were certainly their words not God. Some Churches teach that the Bible is the Literal word of God.
If that is true which Bible is correct and what books should be in it. As the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, and Ethopian Bibles all differ in content, though of a similar age.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Metis and Terrywoodenpic,
Then we don't have a common enough foundation to have much of a meaningful discourse.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Paul also said
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside

That's no reason to disobey scripture
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: [19] that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. [20] We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

This ministry is for all Disciples of Jesus, not just preachers, but AT LEAST preachers should preach this.


I understand this may seem polite and accepting. But it comes with a side of apathy. Not sharing with someone something that could save them when they're in error, is a lack of love, and contrary to the call of scripture.
John 12:47-50 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. [48] There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. [49] For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. [50] I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--- [7] which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

GalatIan's 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.

Galatians 5:7-12 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? [8] That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. [9] “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” [10] I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. [11] Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. [12] As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

2 Timothy 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: [2] Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage---with great patience and careful instruction. [3] For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [4] They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [5] But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Acts 19:1-5 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples [2] and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” [3] So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John's baptism,” they replied. [4] Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Somebody is going to be wrong, and just leaving them to their fate without sharing the truth with them (out of love and pure motives) is just wrong! By the time they're standing in front of the judgment seat, it's too late.

This is not to say that some aren't misguided, self righteous, and sanctimonious. That needs to be addressed as well, but not by disobeying scripture and by stopping to preach about salvation. That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

When you deep study Galatians, the whole chapter is about the false gospel of another group. Considering that the rest of the entire book deals with circumcision, the Law and other Jewish tenets, it becomes clear that Paul is warning them of the emerging catholic ideology (using the OT to define the Gospel). Paul even mentions the Incident at Antioch where he disputes Peter:

Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.(aka the Pharisee's)

The Jews wanted to have control over the Gospel. Peter gave it to them (according to Paul) and the catholic ideology was born. Pauls church separated from Peters church that eventually became the RCC (preemptive) some 300 later. Marcion kept the church of Paul alive, as well as Valentinus. But the catholic ideology (false gospel Paul speaks of) , overpowered Pauls church and considered it's teaching heretical.

Galatians is one of the ten letters written by Paul (Hebrews, and the pastorals are pseudo books). Paul's epistles glorified the Gospel, not the OT.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
in one sense I agree with you, it is not up to 1 or another's opinion on scripture. It is up to the text. Jesus said in John 14:6 that he is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through him. If someone attempts to get to the father through say Hare Krishna, then according to the text, they are not saved. That is not an opinion, that is Jesus's direct teaching. All matters on salvation come to what God wants according to what the text says. If you don't believe all scriptures are true, then that's a different issue.
Judaism included as well.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
When you deep study Galatians, the whole chapter is about the false gospel of another group. Considering that the rest of the entire book deals with circumcision, the Law and other Jewish tenets, it becomes clear that Paul is warning them of the emerging catholic ideology (using the OT to define the Gospel). Paul even mentions the Incident at Antioch where he disputes Peter:

Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.(aka the Pharisee's)

The Jews wanted to have control over the Gospel. Peter gave it to them (according to Paul) and the catholic ideology was born. Pauls church separated from Peters church that eventually became the RCC (preemptive) some 300 later. Marcion kept the church of Paul alive, as well as Valentinus. But the catholic ideology (false gospel Paul speaks of) , overpowered Pauls church and considered it's teaching heretical.

Galatians is one of the ten letters written by Paul (Hebrews, and the pastorals are pseudo books). Paul's epistles glorified the Gospel, not the OT.
I don't think Peter had any intention of the church going FCC. I think it started not with Peter in Antioch, but with Ignatius, Peter's successor. And I seriously doubt Paul saw Peter as the originator of what would be the Catholic Church. Paul rebuked Peter once and they each spoke of each other in positive terms in their writings. At least at that point, there was no schism. All that came after they were both dead.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
I don't think Peter had any intention of the church going FCC. I think it started not with Peter in Antioch, but with Ignatius, Peter's successor. And I seriously doubt Paul saw Peter as the originator of what would be the Catholic Church. Paul rebuked Peter once and they each spoke of each other in positive terms in their writings. At least at that point, there was no schism. All that came after they were both dead.
A good possibility. It WOULD answer why Valentinus left the church of Rome, after being in line for bishop, was passed over for another (per Tertullian). It would also explain a "Gospel of Peter" citing gnosis over orthodox ideology.

It's an interesting view of a gray time, mostly caused by the Roman church, by Constantine, to destroy all messages not conforming to his church.
 
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