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Question for Theists

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I have a question for those of you who believe in a god or gods, and it is actually a very important question so please take some time to consider the implications before you answer.

If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
I have a question for those of you who believe in a god or gods, and it is actually a very important question so please take some time to consider the implications before you answer.

If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?

Interesting question. I don't know if my gods exist and yet I still find benefit in believing in them. I don't particularly mind if this is purely psychological, since if it is it's not likely to bother me after death if I'm wrong and it makes this life a bit more interesting regardless.
If I knew without a doubt that no gods exist I wouldn't have any benefit from trying to believe in them, so I guess I wouldn't bother. As it is now though, I take a pragmatic approach to it. A bit like Pascal's wager but without the "one true god" and eternal damnation elements that make Pascal's wager so ludicrous.

If I believe in gods it makes my life more interesting whether or not they exist. If I don't believe in gods, my life is less interesting and I miss out on any benefits that are more than psychological if gods do exist.

I view it the same way that I view magic. As a minimum you are employing the placebo effect, if there is genuinely something more to it then you'd be missing out by not using it. Either way, to me it makes more sense to use magic, while being aware it could be pure psychology than to not use it and miss out on any benefit whatsoever.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Interesting question. I don't know if my gods exist and yet I still find benefit in believing in them. I don't particularly mind if this is purely psychological, since if it is it's not likely to bother me after death if I'm wrong and it makes this life a bit more interesting regardless.
If I knew without a doubt that no gods exist I wouldn't have any benefit from trying to believe in them, so I guess I wouldn't bother. As it is now though, I take a pragmatic approach to it. A bit like Pascal's wager but without the "one true god" and eternal damnation elements that make Pascal's wager so ludicrous.

If I believe in gods it makes my life more interesting whether or not they exist. If I don't believe in gods, my life is less interesting and I miss out on any benefits that are more than psychological if gods do exist.

So what you are essentially saying is that you would choose to believe in a God because it makes you feel good and you feel that it makes your life interesting? Would that be a fair description of your view?

I view it the same way that I view magic. As a minimum you are employing the placebo effect, if there is genuinely something more to it then you'd be missing out by not using it. Either way, to me it makes more sense to use magic, while being aware it could be pure psychology than to not use it and miss out on any benefit whatsoever.

I must admit that this notion appears alien to me personally. As my title indicates I do not include things into my view of reality that we do not have evidence exists. Now, we know that the placebo effect is real and we also know how it works. The interesting part with regards to this idea of magic that you describe is that the placebo effect still works even if you know that the medicine/treatment you are receiving is fake. Science advances by not being satisfied with "it works" but rather by continuing to enquire "sure, but HOW does it work". This has led to the amount of understanding that we currently have about the world in which we live.

Do you not think that that is a valid pursuit?
 

1AOA1

Active Member
I have a question for those of you who believe in a god or gods, and it is actually a very important question so please take some time to consider the implications before you answer.

If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?

Do we want to believe in God, or do we believe in God and want to be with God?
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
So what you are essentially saying is that you would choose to believe in a God because it makes you feel good and you feel that it makes your life interesting? Would that be a fair description of your view?

Pretty much yes. Theism isn't necessary to make my life worthwhile, but it does improve it. I liken it to having a pillow, it's not necessary to have a pillow to sleep, but since it makes your bed more comfortable why would you forgo it?

I must admit that this notion appears alien to me personally. As my title indicates I do not include things into my view of reality that we do not have evidence exists. Now, we know that the placebo effect is real and we also know how it works. The interesting part with regards to this idea of magic that you describe is that the placebo effect still works even if you know that the medicine/treatment you are receiving is fake. Science advances by not being satisfied with "it works" but rather by continuing to enquire "sure, but HOW does it work". This has led to the amount of understanding that we currently have about the world in which we live.

Do you not think that that is a valid pursuit

Scientific advancement is a perfectly valid pursuit, but I still reap the benefits of it even if I'm not a scientist, so why would I give up my own comfort for no additional benefit?
Also, the placebo effect CAN work even if you know it's fake, but it's still better to believe that you are doing something genuine. In the case of magic it makes more sense to tell yourself that you are invoking gods/demons than to tell yourself you are invoking your own psyche. Sure, you'll get more effect from telling yourself exactly what it is you're doing than by doing nothing at all, but not only is this a bland way of going about things, it also reduces the psychological impact of the ritual. Magic is largely about the drama involved and it's the drama that triggers both the placebo effect to make positive changes in your life and also the emotional intensity that alters the way you feel immediately after the ritual.
Like I say, I'm a pragmatist. To me dissecting exactly how something works is interesting, but otherwise useless if it doesn't improve the effects of the thing in question. Magic works just as well when you understand the placebo effect as when you don't, all you gain is a new perspective on it. Now with that new perspective you can either say "Well now I know how this works I won't use it anymore" or you can say "It still works, I'll still use it."
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
There is no evidence that any god exists.
However faith and evidence are not interdependent.
Those of us that believe in God, do so through faith alone.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?

If no God existed then I would not need or want to believe in one. It is because I cannot prove that God does not exist. So it is because God exists that I do. One thing to consider is the definition of God. God for me is everything, everywhere and always and not a being separate from us and the world we live in.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
If no God existed then I would not need or want to believe in one. It is because I cannot prove that God does not exist.

Do you apply the same standard to everything else that you cannot prove does not exist or is god a special case?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
:) But wouldn't the "want", be the product of absence (of belief in God) like the want to be with God is the product of absence (of unity with God)?

The question pertains to whether there is a god or not, would you want there to be one, which is not at all similar to the question of whether there actually is one or not.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Pretty much yes. Theism isn't necessary to make my life worthwhile, but it does improve it. I liken it to having a pillow, it's not necessary to have a pillow to sleep, but since it makes your bed more comfortable why would you forgo it?

So, what you are, in essence, saying is that you want comforting illusions even if they are false? Is that correct?

Scientific advancement is a perfectly valid pursuit, but I still reap the benefits of it even if I'm not a scientist, so why would I give up my own comfort for no additional benefit?

You do not consider knowing what is true to be of benefit?

Also, the placebo effect CAN work even if you know it's fake, but it's still better to believe that you are doing something genuine.

Why would lying to yourself be of benefit?

In the case of magic it makes more sense to tell yourself that you are invoking gods/demons than to tell yourself you are invoking your own psyche. Sure, you'll get more effect from telling yourself exactly what it is you're doing than by doing nothing at all, but not only is this a bland way of going about things, it also reduces the psychological impact of the ritual. Magic is largely about the drama involved and it's the drama that triggers both the placebo effect to make positive changes in your life and also the emotional intensity that alters the way you feel immediately after the ritual.

I know almost nothing about these rituals and I don't consider magic to be something real so I'll abstain from commenting on that particular issue.

Like I say, I'm a pragmatist. To me dissecting exactly how something works is interesting, but otherwise useless if it doesn't improve the effects of the thing in question.

The problem is, you usually don't know that until after you dissect it, and scientific history is full of achievements that has come to be exactly by dissecting how things work. Without them we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)
 

1AOA1

Active Member
The question pertains to whether there is a god or not, would you want there to be one, which is not at all similar to the question of whether there actually is one or not.
But if want is the product of absence (of belief in God), and absence of belief in God is atheism, aren't you asking 'If no God existed, would you still [be an atheist]'? Is that a trick? :confused:
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
But if want is the product of absence (of belief in God), and absence of belief in God is atheism, aren't you asking 'If no God existed, would you still [be an atheist]'? Is that a trick? :confused:

Wanting something in the absence of that thing implies a need, and that, I suppose, is what I am asking. I have no need for there to be a god, therefore I do not want there to be a god.

How about you?
 

1AOA1

Active Member
Wanting something in the absence of that thing implies a need, and that, I suppose, is what I am asking. I have no need for there to be a god, therefore I do not want there to be a god.

How about you?
So do I have an absence of belief in God to want a belief in God? Wouldn't a want to believe precede the actual belief? Oh and isn't a want and a need different to a certain degree? Meaning the belief in God already establishes that it is needed, whether you want it or not?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
So do I have an absence of belief in God to want a belief in God?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Wouldn't a want to believe precede the actual belief?

Not necessarily. There are a lot of things I didn't want to believe in but which I nevertheless ended up believing in because the evidence was in favour of it.

Oh and isn't a want and a need different to a certain degree?

Which is why I defined it as I did.

Meaning the belief in God already establishes that it is needed, whether you want it or not?

A lot of things, including ideas, exist without there necessarily being a need for them.
 
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