Question for Theists

[jarofthoughts]

I notice that it is hard to get a straight answer out of certain people.
Wonder why that is... :sarcastic

 

[Debunker]

I have a question for those of you who believe in a god or gods, and it is actually a very important question so please take some time to consider the implications before you answer.

If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?

At the first glance I thought this was just another stupid question that theist should ignore since it does not merit a philosophical or theological answer.Then, it occurred to me that this question had little to do with ontology but it was really a question of psychology. What would such a question tell us? It is asked by an atheist and by a psychological perspective an atheist by definition is narcissistic in that an atheist believes he alone in the universe.

I have often thought that many agnostics and atheist have a personality that is a narcissus's personality. Rebellion and oppositional behavior, always rejecting societal norms, being against any conformities to authority, etc., which is best described as an oppositional defiant disorder when taken to the extreme as this question does.

What this question is asking the theist to do is to convince the atheist that he is not alone. It is not a trap question for theist as it first appears. It is a cry for help. Persons who ask such questions should not look to religion or philosophy for an answer. This is a question posted on Religious Debate but it has little theological foundation.

Well, my friend, you are not alone. You only think you are alone and adjustment to societal norms will be very difficult until you accept this fact that the world is not based on your existence only. As an infant babies think everything is for them. Growing up, babies learn to share the world with others. Oppositional defiant children do not grow out of this infantile (pun intended) behavior pattern.

If you would survey all the post made on this forum asked by atheist, you would be surprised how many times their questions are actually psychological in nature as opposed to being philosophical. Now, all you theist, go ahead and answer this question but give the real answer that the atheist is seeking. He needs comfort and assurance. He wants to know he is not alone and he wants to end his endless rebellion. You have the keys to his success and it is found in a mature psychology.

 

[Erebus]

1.So, what you are, in essence, saying is that you want comforting illusions even if they are false? Is that correct?



2.You do not consider knowing what is true to be of benefit?



3.Why would lying to yourself be of benefit?



4.I know almost nothing about these rituals and I don't consider magic to be something real so I'll abstain from commenting on that particular issue.



5.The problem is, you usually don't know that until after you dissect it, and scientific history is full of achievements that has come to be exactly by dissecting how things work. Without them we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I've broken your post down into numbered points so I don't have to mess about with copy and paste

1. If it turns out I'm wrong and my gods aren't real then that's exactly what I would have had and it won't bother me a jot after death. I'd rather risk going along with what might be an illusion, but might also be of other benefit to me, than not doing anything and miss out on any benefit whatsoever.

2. That really depends on what the truth is. Some truths will affect my life positively, others negatively. Sometimes I'll want to know either way, but when it comes to gods, nobody knows (regardless of what they might think) and so truth is a moot point here.

3. Let's say I need a confidence boost, so I invoke a deity to make people find me more attractive. I believe the ritual will work and so I leave it feeling more attractive. Because I'm now more confident people genuinely find me more attractive. Whether a supernatural power intervened or not is irrelevant, I have what I wanted from the ritual. Gods or no gods, the mind is a powerful tool and suspension of disbelief can be incredibly useful.

4. Fair enough.

5. No that's true, however some things remain useful especially if other, newer methods aren't at hand. If you don't have a lighter in the woods you might use a flint, since I'm not willing to pay a hypnotherapist every time I want to improve a part of my life I use ritual instead

It might help you understand if I give you a brief overview of how I see life. I don't believe in ultimate morality nor do I believe we have a duty to each other. I'm agnostic about the afterlife and so I say you make the most out of this one. Do whatever it takes to make your life the best you can, the expectations of others don't matter a jot. Navigate life by thinking about what's in your own best interest rather than what you should or shouldn't do. Should I kill somebody? No, I'd go to prison. Should I help other people? Yes, if they matter to you, otherwise you'll end up lonely.
With that line of thinking, belief is simply a tool to be used to improve your life. If you don't use it, you get no benefit. To me, that's pointless, but to each their own I guess.

 

[1AOA1]

Not sure what you mean by that.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of things I didn't want to believe in but which I nevertheless ended up believing in because the evidence was in favour of it.

There's a saying which goes, 'i'd be an atheist, if it wasn't for God'.

Which is why I defined it as I did.



A lot of things, including ideas, exist without there necessarily being a need for them.

Ok.

 

[Erebus]

He needs comfort and assurance. He wants to know he is not alone and he wants to end his endless rebellion. You have the keys to his success and it is found in a mature psychology.

I highly doubt that's what he's after

I suspect he's much more interested in seeing people's views rather than crying for help.

 

[Debunker]

There is no evidence that any god exists.
However faith and evidence are not interdependent.
Those of us that believe in God, do so through faith alone.

I believe in God and it is not based on faith as you define it. My belief in God is based on fact and reasoning. You say that there is no evidence that god exist but what do you or an atheist believe is evidence. I say the existence of anything is evidence that something is real and qualifies as evidence of something.

The fact is that atheist have no evidence that God does not exist. It is the atheist that walks by faith, not the theist. The theist has many evidences with which to reason and the atheist actually has none.

Bless you brother. Keep believing for you have as much evidence to support your faith as there is in the universe and the unbeliever is just that, he does not believe the evidence that is.

 

[Onkara]

Do you apply the same standard to everything else that you cannot prove does not exist or is god a special case?

Good point!
No, I only apply this to my definition of God. Because I want to confirm something which I cannot deny in any situation. I am not superstitious, I need logic.

That which I cannot deny in any situation in which I know is consciousness (and my own existence). I cannot deny either, in fact everything else depends on them. As I cannot confirm the origin of consciousness and existence, and everything depends on them I therefore call it God.

 

[Debunker]

That is like saying that if no tooth-fairy existed you would not know about it.
And you didn't answer the question.

I do not believe in the tooth fairy because he did not place money under my pillow when I pulled my baby teeth!

How do you explain how everything in the universe was put here unless there is an existence fairy?

 

[Debunker]

Wanting something in the absence of that thing implies a need, and that, I suppose, is what I am asking. I have no need for there to be a god, therefore I do not want there to be a god.

How about you?

Brother, if that is not symptomatic of a narcissistic personality, prey tell me how it is not? You really think you have no spiritual needs whatsoever? You are that alone, are you?

 

[Debunker]

I notice that it is hard to get a straight answer out of certain people.
Wonder why that is... :sarcastic

Yes, I wonder that about the very nature of the question you ask. Why is my answer not straight enough for you?

 

[Debunker]

I highly doubt that's what he's after

I suspect he's much more interested in seeing people's views rather than crying for help.

If this be true, why does he not simply ask us instead of being so evasive with the facts? His criticisms do not reflect this science he refutes everything we say in defense of theist. He did ask this question to theist, did he not?My answer is the only realistic answer answer that makes any sense to theist because by definition we are the ones that know God does exist. Atheist admit by definition that they do not know about existence.

Is that what he wants? If not, tell us what he does want? What was his purpose in asking this question? Everybody seem to be all over the place in giving an answer. What exactly is wrong with a psychological answer?

 

[Kathryn]

If God did not exist, of course I wouldn't want to believe He did. I have no interest in "believing in" things, accounts of history, concepts or entities which are simply not true or do not exist.

 

[Erebus]

If this be true, why does he not simply ask us instead of being so evasive with the facts? His criticisms do not reflect this science he refutes everything we say in defense of theist. He did ask this question to theist, did he not?My answer is the only realistic answer answer that makes any sense to theist because by definition we are the ones that know God does exist. Atheist admit by definition that they do not know about existence.

Is that what he wants? If not, tell us what he does want? What was his purpose in asking this question? Everybody seem to be all over the place in giving an answer. What exactly is wrong with a psychological answer?

Ok, I should probably also have said he wants to debate peoples opinions on this. If you think he wants to hear that he isn't alone, by all means go ahead with that, but I doubt you'll get far.

 

[jarofthoughts]

At the first glance I thought this was just another stupid question that theist should ignore since it does not merit a philosophical or theological answer.Then, it occurred to me that this question had little to do with ontology but it was really a question of psychology. What would such a question tell us? It is asked by an atheist and by a psychological perspective an atheist by definition is narcissistic in that an atheist believes he alone in the universe.

I have often thought that many agnostics and atheist have a personality that is a narcissus's personality. Rebellion and oppositional behavior, always rejecting societal norms, being against any conformities to authority, etc., which is best described as an oppositional defiant disorder when taken to the extreme as this question does.

What this question is asking the theist to do is to convince the atheist that he is not alone. It is not a trap question for theist as it first appears. It is a cry for help. Persons who ask such questions should not look to religion or philosophy for an answer. This is a question posted on Religious Debate but it has little theological foundation.

Well, my friend, you are not alone. You only think you are alone and adjustment to societal norms will be very difficult until you accept this fact that the world is not based on your existence only. As an infant babies think everything is for them. Growing up, babies learn to share the world with others. Oppositional defiant children do not grow out of this infantile (pun intended) behavior pattern.

If you would survey all the post made on this forum asked by atheist, you would be surprised how many times their questions are actually psychological in nature as opposed to being philosophical. Now, all you theist, go ahead and answer this question but give the real answer that the atheist is seeking. He needs comfort and assurance. He wants to know he is not alone and he wants to end his endless rebellion. You have the keys to his success and it is found in a mature psychology.

Do you expect me to take this seriously?
How about answering the question that was asked instead?

 

[jarofthoughts]

I've broken your post down into numbered points so I don't have to mess about with copy and paste

Not a problem.

1. If it turns out I'm wrong and my gods aren't real then that's exactly what I would have had and it won't bother me a jot after death. I'd rather risk going along with what might be an illusion, but might also be of other benefit to me, than not doing anything and miss out on any benefit whatsoever.

But what if you've got it all backwards?
What if the Hindu's are right?
Or the Scientologists?
Or none of the above?
What if you are simply wasting your time?

2. That really depends on what the truth is. Some truths will affect my life positively, others negatively. Sometimes I'll want to know either way, but when it comes to gods, nobody knows (regardless of what they might think) and so truth is a moot point here.

Perhaps I'm just weird that way, but I'd want to know the truth no matter what it is. I don't subscribe to blissful ignorance. Knowing the truth is the only way I might have a standing chance of dealing with the conditions I find myself in.

3. Let's say I need a confidence boost, so I invoke a deity to make people find me more attractive. I believe the ritual will work and so I leave it feeling more attractive. Because I'm now more confident people genuinely find me more attractive. Whether a supernatural power intervened or not is irrelevant, I have what I wanted from the ritual. Gods or no gods, the mind is a powerful tool and suspension of disbelief can be incredibly useful.

This is true as far as it goes, but there are several ways of developing one's confidence without the added extras of gods. Also there is the danger of people acting with undue confidence. Many evils have been committed by people who thought they were doing god's will blindly without ever questioning if they were right. Questioning one self is generally considered a good thing.

5. No that's true, however some things remain useful especially if other, newer methods aren't at hand. If you don't have a lighter in the woods you might use a flint, since I'm not willing to pay a hypnotherapist every time I want to improve a part of my life I use ritual instead

I just envision the change I wish to make, decide upon the path to get there, and act accordingly.

It might help you understand if I give you a brief overview of how I see life. I don't believe in ultimate morality nor do I believe we have a duty to each other. I'm agnostic about the afterlife and so I say you make the most out of this one. Do whatever it takes to make your life the best you can, the expectations of others don't matter a jot. Navigate life by thinking about what's in your own best interest rather than what you should or shouldn't do. Should I kill somebody? No, I'd go to prison. Should I help other people? Yes, if they matter to you, otherwise you'll end up lonely.
With that line of thinking, belief is simply a tool to be used to improve your life. If you don't use it, you get no benefit. To me, that's pointless, but to each their own I guess.

Apart from the aspects of magic and gods I'd say our views on life is pretty similar.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I believe in God and it is not based on faith as you define it. My belief in God is based on fact and reasoning. You say that there is no evidence that god exist but what do you or an atheist believe is evidence. I say the existence of anything is evidence that something is real and qualifies as evidence of something.

The existence of the universe is evidence that there is a universe.
How does this translate into evidence for god?

The fact is that atheist have no evidence that God does not exist. It is the atheist that walks by faith, not the theist. The theist has many evidences with which to reason and the atheist actually has none.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Hence one needs positive evidence before claiming that something exists. Or, to quote Hitchens; "What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

 

[Thief]

The existence of the universe is evidence that there is a universe.
How does this translate into evidence for god?



It is impossible to prove a negative. Hence one needs positive evidence before claiming that something exists. Or, to quote Hitchens; "What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Your question places you...at a fork in the road.

If you say the universe (one word) is not a creation of spirit....
your spirit is a conundrum.
and you are the sum of your chemistry.
When your chemistry fails...so do you.
Back to the ground you go.

If you say the universe (one word) is a creation...
Then Someone will be standing over you when you lay down
to surrender your last breath.
Standing up from your flesh into a spiritual life may require 'permission'...
from your Creator.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Your question places you...at a fork in the road.

If you say the universe (one word) is not a creation of spirit....
your spirit is a conundrum.
and you are the sum of your chemistry.
When your chemistry fails...so do you.
Back to the ground you go.

If you say the universe (one word) is a creation...
Then Someone will be standing over you when you lay down
to surrender your last breath.
Standing up from your flesh into a spiritual life may require 'permission'...
from your Creator.

While I have no knowledge about what happens after I die (kinda like every other person who ever lived) I have no reason to believe that there is any kind of afterlife, thus I fully expect my death to be the end of my existence.
Oh, and I assure you, if there is, in fact, a god, him an I are going to have WORDS! :sarcastic
This sort of second-hand shabby work is no good for a deity worthy of the name...

 

[jarofthoughts]

If God did not exist, of course I wouldn't want to believe He did. I have no interest in "believing in" things, accounts of history, concepts or entities which are simply not true or do not exist.

A very valid answer.
What makes you think that there is a god then?

 

[Danmac]

I have a question for those of you who believe in a god or gods, and it is actually a very important question so please take some time to consider the implications before you answer.

If no God existed, would you still want to believe in one?

My belief in God did not stem from a need to believe in a God. There was a void in my life that I couldn't put my finger on. My search to fill that void led me to God. If I didn't believe in God I would still be searching for that sense of completeness that only God can bring.