Question for Theists

[Dirty Penguin]

If no God existed I would not know about him !!!

Interesting considering there are many, many religions on the planet which you may feel the gods of these religions are myths while yours is real. To those people their god is as real to them as yours is to you. This is why I think my signature sums it all up.

 

[Danmac]

Aren't those two statements contradictory?
Also, you did not, in fact, answer the question.

Every human being is on a subconscious search to find completeness. If you were honest you would agree that you are on such a search. People attempt everything imaginable to fill that void, but God alone is sufficient. My void has been filled, and I have been completed. Wine, women, and booze offered momentary satisfaction, but God offered completeness. Praise His holy name.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Every human being is on a subconscious search to find completeness.

Not me. Speak for yourself.

If you were honest you would agree that you are on such a search.

Honestly...I'm not unless you can define what "completeness" is supposed to mean...

People attempt everything imaginable to fill that void, but God alone is sufficient.

I don't have a god in my life yet I am no better or worse off than you or anyone else.

My void has been filled, and I have been completed.

Can't argue with you there. To each his own.

Wine, women, and booze offered momentary satisfaction

Then you were off your "game".

God offered completeness. Praise His holy name.

No thank you brotha'..!!!

 

[near.lucemferre]

I don't believe in 'a' God, I believe in God.

I can only answer your question if it doesn't relate to my belief, as without the God I believe in there would be no me to 'want' anything. However, purely theatrically, if no God existed, no I wouldn't want to believe in one because it would be a stupid intolerable belief.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I'm not a scientist. I haven't kept a notebook of evidence and observations.

I suppose one could keep a mental notebook in which one weighs the observed evidence.

I guess I could give you a lot of personal stories if you like, but they wouldn't prove anything to you, and to be honest, I prefer that events in my personal life aren't picked apart as if they were a clinical experiment, ya know?

Completely understandable.

I haven't "tested" God. Well, I'm sure I've tested His PATIENCE, but if you mean how have I tested my hypotheses - I haven't. Not formally.

Would you agree that the claim that there is a god is a claim about reality?
Further, do you agree that the best methodology we have come up with for determining how reality works is the scientific method?

I've "tested" my concept of and relationship with God much as most people "test" a lover, or a best friend, or their mother. And by that I don't mean manipulative, suspicious, insecure people.

I have heard that "small, still voice" many times in my life, and it's hard to explain, but when I do hear it , I KNOW it is God showing me the way, or comforting me. He has calmed my heart when it was in the tumult of intense grief, and fear, and anger. His presence in my life has given me strength when my strength was gone.

Since you used the word "know" I'll follow that up somewhat, if you'll allow.
Knowledge can be defined as 'facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject'. So far so good, and this is not in and of itself any hindrance to your attained knowledge. However, we also know that the mind is capable of producing the most astonishing illusions, something which I have myself experience during my hospitalisation about a year ago and also through various neuropsychological experiments like the 'god helmet'.

How would you go about verifying that the voice you hear is not an illusion?

 

[jarofthoughts]

'If hypothetically speaking, there was no god, and you existed anyway so that you might consider this question, would you [be an atheist]'.

Since 'believe in' describes the relationship to a reality (like 'believe in' the sun cant directly see) are you asking if they would be an atheist (non-solarist) who would want God (a sun)?

I have no idea what you are on about here.

 

[jarofthoughts]

It does look that way
Thanks for the debate, it's been interesting

Likewise.

 

[jarofthoughts]

God is a special case.
However there are many things I accept as true with out asking for proof. So I have only one standard to go by.

Why is it that you feel that god deserves to be a special case and not, say, fairies, smurfs or dragons?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Every human being is on a subconscious search to find completeness.

How do you know that?

If you were honest you would agree that you are on such a search.

No true scotsman.

People attempt everything imaginable to fill that void, but God alone is sufficient.

Again, how do you know that there is a void that needs filling?

My void has been filled, and I have been completed.

Glad to hear that.

Wine, women, and booze offered momentary satisfaction, but God offered completeness.

Are you sure you were doing it right?

Praise His holy name.

And considering the vast number of religions in the world his name would be...?

 

[jarofthoughts]

However, purely theatrically, if no God existed, no I wouldn't want to believe in one because it would be a stupid intolerable belief.

I see.
Now, why is it that you feel that your current belief in god is not, as you say, stupid and intolerable?

 

[1AOA1]

Here's a couple: If you found out that there was no sun, would you still want a sun that sustains life and provides warmth? If you found out there were no atoms, would you still want to believe in atoms? If you found out that there was no electricity, would you still want electricity? If you found out that there were no magnetic field, would you still want to believe in using your compass? If you found out there was no wi fi networking, would you still want to believe in using your computer wirelessly?

Attempt to answer these questions and read the responses you got again.

 

[1AOA1]

I see.
Now, why is it that you feel that your current belief in god is not, as you say, stupid and intolerable?

Trap tripped.

 

[near.lucemferre]

I see.
Now, why is it that you feel that your current belief in god is not, as you say, stupid and intolerable?

Because I can prove it to myself empirically.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Because I can prove it to myself empirically.

Alright.
Please enlighten me as to how that is.

 

[Katzpur]

I am not an athiest, I do believe in God
However, There is no evidence that God either exists or does not exist.

Terry, I'm curious about this statement. I would agree that there is no proof that God exists, but I'm surprised that you would say there is no evidence. Could you explain what causes you to have faith if there is no evidence at all. (By evidence, I don't mean something that would be accepted in testing a scientific theorum. It could be something entirely subjective.)

 

[Kathryn]

[QUOTEI suppose one could keep a mental notebook in which one weighs the observed evidence.

][/QUOTE]

Oh, I've got a lifetime of mental observations which confirm to me my belief in God.

Would you agree that the claim that there is a god is a claim about reality?

I believe that God transcends what we think of as reality. I believe our concept of reality is confined by our five senses and our intellect. Even our combined human intellect and experience is limited by our humanity.

Would you agree that there is most likely "reality" outside of what the human mind can conceive?

Further, do you agree that the best methodology we have come up with for determining how reality works is the scientific method?

See above. I believe it's better than nothing.

However, we also know that the mind is capable of producing the most astonishing illusions, something which I have myself experience during my hospitalisation about a year ago and also through various neuropsychological experiments like the 'god helmet'.

How would you go about verifying that the voice you hear is not an illusion?

Well - this falls clearly in the category of things I cannot prove to you, but that's not the point of this, right?

Let's see - I'm completely sane. I don't drink to excess, and I don't do any drugs - prescription or otherwise. I have no history of schizophrenia or delusions, and have no reason to believe that I'm experiencing anything even remotely akin to a mental disorder. I get plenty of sleep every night, and eat a balanced diet.

In other words, I don't "hear things" or have any imaginary friends. I don't believe in ghosts, I'm not easily spooked, I am highly skeptical of what others call "paranormal activity," and I would be the first to assert that nearly all things "weird" or "odd" or "supernatural" have a purely logical, scientific origin.

I also have faith in God and His word and promises. I trust His perfect holiness and complete wisdom. I believe He has a plan for my life and that I am here to fulfill that plan.

"Does that make me CRA-ZEEEEE?" :cover: I don't think so. My faith makes me a better person and that's good for everyone.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Terry, I'm curious about this statement. I would agree that there is no proof that God exists, but I'm surprised that you would say there is no evidence. Could you explain what causes you to have faith if there is no evidence at all. (By evidence, I don't mean something that would be accepted in testing a scientific theorum. It could be something entirely subjective.)

Hi Kathryn (Katspur)
There is of course plenty of subjective evidence, and when I pray I know I am communicating with God.

However personal subjective evidence, does not transfer to others, and will always leave them unconvinced.

Even strong evidence of a miracle, gives no evidence as to the cause or the involvement of God.

Faith does not rely on external evidence. It seems to require the intervention of God the Holy spirit to be "Confirmed"

This is, of course, also entirely with out evidence.

You and I both love and trust in God... but even we could not prove it to each other.

It does not make it any less real.

There was a time when I wanted evidence, what I was really looking for was faith.

As you well know, My beliefs are "Unusual and have minimal baggage" and are with out dogma in the usual sense. I can understand that this is hard for most Christians, as it leaves more questions than answers. But it leaves nearly all denominations as possible truth.

 

[Kathryn]

Terry - I agree with what you posted above. Just wanted to point out that your quote, though, was from Katzpur, not me. You may have noticed that I have not even attempted to give the OP author "evidence" that God exists - because I'm with you on this - we can't prove God to another person.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Oh, I've got a lifetime of mental observations which confirm to me my belief in God.

Fair enough.
If it's good enough for you personally, and you keep it that way, I see no reason to have an issue with it.

I believe that God transcends what we think of as reality. I believe our concept of reality is confined by our five senses and our intellect. Even our combined human intellect and experience is limited by our humanity.

Apart from the fact that I don't believe in any god I have no problem with any of the above.

Would you agree that there is most likely "reality" outside of what the human mind can conceive?

At the very least I see it as a possibility, although I do see potential in our pursuit of knowledge that we might get a lot further than what we currently have. While we have been doing science for more than a thousand years the really big advances has come in the last hundred or so, and I don't think we've seen the end of that by a long shot. And who knows, a hundred thousand years ahead what we might know and understand by then, provided of course, that there is still a human race left.

"Does that make me CRA-ZEEEEE?" :cover: I don't think so.

No, I don't think so. But I know that the 'god helmet' works very well to replicate the kinds of experiences that many theists have described when they claim to feel the "presence" of god, and while neuropshychology is in its infancy we have made some headway in the understanding of what kinds of effects the mind can manufacture. And this definitely falls within that category.
I wonder how many theists have actually searched for alternative explanations to their experiences?

My faith makes me a better person and that's good for everyone.

Perhaps. But if you'll allow me to play the role of the Devil's advocate for a moment, that doesn't make it true.

 

[Debunker]

The existence of the universe is evidence that there is a universe.
How does this translate into evidence for god?

The existence of the universe is evidence that existence does exist. The theist says that ontology created cosmology whereas the atheist denies that ontological existence exist at all. That is the relationship

It is impossible to prove a negative. Hence one needs positive evidence before claiming that something exists. Or, to quote Hitchens; "What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

We assert that existence is evidence.

there is a universe.
How does this translate into evidence for god?

I just showed you this. God is the ontology that created the universe or else how did the universe get here?

It is impossible to prove a negative. Hence one needs positive evidence before claiming that something exists. Or, to quote Hitchens; "What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."[

Hitchens was in error! Existence was never a negative. His limited compasity to reason caused him to overlook this obvious observation.