Then why are you not an atheist?
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Question for Theists
- Thread starter jarofthoughts
- Start date
Then why are you not an atheist?
Existence is not a negative.
I define gOd into Being.
Which actually puts ME in the God seat.
I'm pretty sure I exist.
If I don't exist, it hardly matters what I might wish for.
I think you out of existence so now you are not a problem to anybody!
The Wizard
Active Member
Excellent question.. You may want to look closely at the intrinsic meaning of the phrase, "believe in God." It's meaning is more to the tone of "believing a God or its presence INTO ones experience, reality or world." When someone "believes in" something they start believing its presence "into" their life and experience.
When a person believes "IN" certain things with enough concentration, focus and frequency the outer world will start reflecting those beliefs as a reality. .. dynamics of the subconscious also play a part of this connection process.
The one who "believes in ghosts" encounters them. The one who doesn't "believe them into" their world won't. The negative guy gets negative experiences. The guy that doesnt believe in luck has less luck, etc.
Now, lets look at some basic concepts of God, the gods and the divine. When taken as the creator of all that's good, the mysterious patterns of goodness, a protector of harm and evil... the creator of the universe and one's experience of it, etc. You will see the reason behind it. For, our beliefs affect our reality and are a part of reality.
Please do not attempt to argue that beliefs in God are not a part of reality (or imaginary) when one of the very reasons this thread exists is due to the beliefs in God. This aspect IS the objective reason for such beliefs in God or the gods in my opinion. There would be no reason to disconnect ourselves from more goodness that our universe can muster to us by not using the magic of belief itself.
I don't need evidence from others to see that my beliefs affect my world as a reality. For, most haven't even grasped the reason for belief in the first place... And, half of the planet could not use their ability to believe even if their life depended on it....They can't even concentrate on something for more than 8 seconds.
Belief is a basic part of reality through cause and effect dynamics. I would think that a better quetion would be, "Why would someone NOT believe in at least something to add more goodness to their Life and experiences.
The belief that a wise, loving and good creator created the universe in fact has a purpose based in reality. Other people have just twisted those truthes... IMO. Anyway, I thought I would share my 2 sense for your well thought question.
If God exists, you do have a chance to prove it.
If God doesn't exist (though you believe you by your faith), you are hopeless in proving His non-existence.
As scientifically speaking, if you suspect something exists you may have a chance to prove it. If however you suspect something doesn't exist, you'll be hopeless. As it is no hope to prove something doesn't exist. Alternatively speaking, non-existence can never be proved/disproved, NEVER!
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
Thank you.
You do realize that your argument puts god on exactly the same level as faeries, Santa and crystal healing?
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
If God exists, you do have a chance to prove it.
If God doesn't exist (though you believe you by your faith), you are hopeless in proving His non-existence.
As scientifically speaking, if you suspect something exists you may have a chance to prove it. If however you suspect something doesn't exist, you'll be hopeless. As it is no hope to prove something doesn't exist. Alternatively speaking, non-existence can never be proved/disproved, NEVER!
Do you believe in faeries then?
Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic
I am not an athiest, I do believe in God
However, There is no evidence that God either exists or does not exist.
Exactly. There is no evidence that an invisible, intangible, pink unicorn either exists or does not exist. Do you believe that this unicorn exists? What about all the other things like big foot, vampires, were wolfs, leprechauns for which there is not evidence to prove for certain that they do not exist. Why make exception for God?
I am not an athiest, I do believe in God
However, There is no evidence that God either exists or does not exist.
Exactly. There is no evidence that an invisible, intangible, pink unicorn either exists or does not exist. Do you believe that this unicorn exists? What about all the other things like big foot, vampires, were wolfs, leprechauns for which there is not evidence to prove for certain that they do not exist. Why make exception for God?
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If God exists, you do have a chance to prove it.
If God doesn't exist (though you believe you by your faith), you are hopeless in proving His non-existence.
As scientifically speaking, if you suspect something exists you may have a chance to prove it. If however you suspect something doesn't exist, you'll be hopeless. As it is no hope to prove something doesn't exist. Alternatively speaking, non-existence can never be proved/disproved, NEVER!
You are somewhat right.
It is true that it can not be proven that there does not exist some supernatural being out there.
Although it can be proven that a particular understanding of this supernatural being is incorrect.
The most popular understanding of this supernatural being is that it is:
All Powerful, All Knowing, All Compassionate.
The argument "Problem of Evil" proves this God impossible.
Here is the prevalent argument against "Problem of Evil":
"We can not possibly fully understand God. It is possible that God, with
all his great wisdom and knowledge far beyond ours allows for horrid atrocities to occur from which the victims will somehow ultimately benefit and we would have a better world because of all of the suffering. From our narrow point of view, it may seem that all this suffering can not possibly ultimately benefit the total sum of the world, but it is very possible."
Here is how this counter argument completely fails:
"If God is allowing all this suffering of innocent people so that they will unknowingly ultimately benefit from it and we will have a better world... Surely, God with all his power, should be able to bring about this ultimate benefit and better world without the suffering, yet he chooses not to do so.
I think this proves that the typical idea of God - All Powerful+Knowing+Compassionate
can not exist because if self contradiction.
If your were to change the definition of the most popular idea of God to:
1) All Powerful
2) All Knowing
3) Is not concerned with our best interests
Then this being can not be disproved.
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blackout
Violet.
Did this also think my gOd out of existence?
If so,
YOU no longer exist either.
(now nobody will be a problem to anybody)
tarasan
Well-Known Member
of course not why would i wanna do a think like that id just be deluding myself
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
Sounds like a good base to start from.
So, assuming that you do believe that a god exists, what makes you think this is the case? I'm not asking for scientific evidence for god as we all know that doesn't exist, but rather what makes you personally think that there is a god.
tarasan
Well-Known Member
experience (to an extent, i feel its a fact that i have been influenced by it, but im all to aware that feelings can be created to fill what you believe should be there, if you understand my meaning)
various arguements, (im not quite sure how many i should state here as if i mention them all and we argue them all, then our talk is going to get very cluttered and confusing, limiting the dialogue.
I find that thiesm is a rational thing to hold ( I feel that the christian religion is a rational view to hold, also it offers a better explanation than the athiest explanations.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
At the very least I see it as a possibility, although I do see potential in our pursuit of knowledge that we might get a lot further than what we currently have. While we have been doing science for more than a thousand years the really big advances has come in the last hundred or so, and I don't think we've seen the end of that by a long shot. And who knows, a hundred thousand years ahead what we might know and understand by then, provided of course, that there is still a human race left.
Well, it goes without saying that there is a lot more reality out there than we know about now - and that it's within our human capacity to continue to learn more every single day for aeons. That's not my point though. My point is that as humans with five (some would say six) senses, and all the other limitations of humanity, there is reality out there which we are simply unable to grasp or comprehend. Ever.
Definitely? You simply do not know this and cannot know this definitely. No offense, but this is, simply your opinion.
A lot more than you probably realize. You are making a classic mistake - assuming that theists are theists by default and that reasonable, intelligent, objective, inquisitive people with many life experiences under their belt have not carefully considered other possibilities and explanations...and found them lacking.
Perhaps. But if you'll allow me to play the role of the Devil's advocate for a moment, that doesn't make it true.
Nor does your unbelief make it UNtrue.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I have a smart dog. I mean, for a DOG, WhoDat's smart - but he's only a dog, and frankly can never fully grasp human reasoning.
A few weeks ago, I took his buddy Josie away. When I brought her back several days later, I can just hear their conversation:
WhoDat: "Wow, girl, you lookin' rough. What happened to you?"
Josie: "You know that place they take us where they drag us in by our slave collars and that stinky man with the long dry fingers comes in and puts sticks up our butts and then jabs us with sharp things while our owner HOLDS US DOWN?"
WhoDat: "Yeah, dat place sucks. Just about de time we start tinkin' our slave owners are cool, dey load us up and take us to dat hell hole. And sometimes dey even LEAVE us dere for a few days! And hey, I'm not sure...but I tink dat's where dey took Big Mama when she got dose lumps all over her, cuz dey smelled like dat place when dey come home crying. And as you know...Big Mama never came home again..."
Josie: "Yeah and I think I know what happened to her. But let me tell you what happened to ME. You're not going to believe it. You know how we've talked about starting a family? Well, that's out of the question. They took me in there, and just left me in a cell. Dogs all around me were crying and howling, so I knew it was bad. The next morning that girl who tries to act nice came in talking all sweet to me, but I wasn't falling for it. Sure enough, she caught me and slipped the noose over my neck and dragged me down the hall. Then Stinky Man came in and -yep, you guessed it - stabbed me with sharp things. Next thing I knew, I woke up in another prison cell and I was so sore. I had a big piece of bed stuff wrapped around me for some weird reason so of course I tore all that off. And you WON'T BELIEVE what I say!"
WhoDat: "What dat, what dat? What choo say you saw?"
Josie starts to cry. WhoDat nuzzles her ear and then starts sniffing down her body.
WhoDat: "Girl, what dey do to you? What's dis bad place on your belly?"
Josie: "I'm so ashamed - I'll never be the same again! I think...I think..."
WhoDat: "What! You don't mean..."
Josie: "Yes...I do. I think...I think they took my girl parts out!"
WhoDat (shocked): "I been hearin' about dis! Why dey do dat? Who dey tink dey are, cuttin and maimin you and takin your joy like dat? Why dey wanna do dat? Dey act all nice, like dey love us, and all de time dey wanna mess our lives up!"
Josie: "I don't know baby, but I know this, cuz I heard them say it..."
WhoDat: "What dey say?"
Josie: "They say you're next."
My point is this - Just as my dogs can never fully grasp how people who seem to love them can allow, and even condone and organize, what they think are bad things happening in their lives - we can never, from our human perspective, fully grasp the big picture of how God works through all the events in our lives.
We have a limited perspective.
A few weeks ago, I took his buddy Josie away. When I brought her back several days later, I can just hear their conversation:
WhoDat: "Wow, girl, you lookin' rough. What happened to you?"
Josie: "You know that place they take us where they drag us in by our slave collars and that stinky man with the long dry fingers comes in and puts sticks up our butts and then jabs us with sharp things while our owner HOLDS US DOWN?"
WhoDat: "Yeah, dat place sucks. Just about de time we start tinkin' our slave owners are cool, dey load us up and take us to dat hell hole. And sometimes dey even LEAVE us dere for a few days! And hey, I'm not sure...but I tink dat's where dey took Big Mama when she got dose lumps all over her, cuz dey smelled like dat place when dey come home crying. And as you know...Big Mama never came home again..."
Josie: "Yeah and I think I know what happened to her. But let me tell you what happened to ME. You're not going to believe it. You know how we've talked about starting a family? Well, that's out of the question. They took me in there, and just left me in a cell. Dogs all around me were crying and howling, so I knew it was bad. The next morning that girl who tries to act nice came in talking all sweet to me, but I wasn't falling for it. Sure enough, she caught me and slipped the noose over my neck and dragged me down the hall. Then Stinky Man came in and -yep, you guessed it - stabbed me with sharp things. Next thing I knew, I woke up in another prison cell and I was so sore. I had a big piece of bed stuff wrapped around me for some weird reason so of course I tore all that off. And you WON'T BELIEVE what I say!"
WhoDat: "What dat, what dat? What choo say you saw?"
Josie starts to cry. WhoDat nuzzles her ear and then starts sniffing down her body.
WhoDat: "Girl, what dey do to you? What's dis bad place on your belly?"
Josie: "I'm so ashamed - I'll never be the same again! I think...I think..."
WhoDat: "What! You don't mean..."
Josie: "Yes...I do. I think...I think they took my girl parts out!"
WhoDat (shocked): "I been hearin' about dis! Why dey do dat? Who dey tink dey are, cuttin and maimin you and takin your joy like dat? Why dey wanna do dat? Dey act all nice, like dey love us, and all de time dey wanna mess our lives up!"
Josie: "I don't know baby, but I know this, cuz I heard them say it..."
WhoDat: "What dey say?"
Josie: "They say you're next."
My point is this - Just as my dogs can never fully grasp how people who seem to love them can allow, and even condone and organize, what they think are bad things happening in their lives - we can never, from our human perspective, fully grasp the big picture of how God works through all the events in our lives.
We have a limited perspective.
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
As I said, it is certainly possible. At this point though, we don't know.
I think you will find this talk by Richard Dawkins interesting.
[youtube]1APOxsp1VFw[/youtube]
YouTube - Richard Dawkins on our "queer" universe
Well, I am going by what you and others have told me, and by your descriptions they match the experiences documented while using the 'god helmet' quite accurately.
Oh, I certainly see that as a possibility, and I know theists like that. While I have no data to back this assumption up it seems as is if they are in a minority.
No, but I don't make a habit of believing in things just because they are convenient, comforting or even practical. I want to know how it works and I care a great deal about keeping my view of reality free of concepts that has no empirical backing.
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Primordial Annihilator
Well-Known Member
No, that would be highly illogical.
jarofthoughts
Empirical Curmudgeon
So, assuming you believe in a god, what is your logical reasoning that brought you to conclude that such a being exists?