Question for Theists

[Erebus]

1.But what if you've got it all backwards?
What if the Hindu's are right?
Or the Scientologists?
Or none of the above?
What if you are simply wasting your time?



2.Perhaps I'm just weird that way, but I'd want to know the truth no matter what it is. I don't subscribe to blissful ignorance. Knowing the truth is the only way I might have a standing chance of dealing with the conditions I find myself in.



3.This is true as far as it goes, but there are several ways of developing one's confidence without the added extras of gods. Also there is the danger of people acting with undue confidence. Many evils have been committed by people who thought they were doing god's will blindly without ever questioning if they were right. Questioning one self is generally considered a good thing.



4.I just envision the change I wish to make, decide upon the path to get there, and act accordingly.



5.Apart from the aspects of magic and gods I'd say our views on life is pretty similar.

1. Hell somebody's got to be wrong and it may well be me. I'm not willing to restrict myself in life in the hopes that I've taken the right path. Instead I went for a religion that leaves you to do as you wish, while adding a little extra too. As long as you enjoy your religion I don't see it as time wasting any more than a hobby would be. I'm aware I have a different opinion on what religion should do than a lot of people

2. Don't get me wrong, most of the time if an answer can be known I want to know even if it's negative. When it comes to gods I don't think we can know, so people might as well find something that suits them. Hell, make it up as you go along if you like, nothing wrong with a bit of religious "roleplaying" so to speak. As far as theism and atheism goes I see atheism as neutral (not affecting your life positively or negatively) while theism can go either way. With that in mind, a form of theism which enhances your life seems an obvious choice. That's just my opinion though

3. That's a very good point, you do have to be careful you don't overdo it. This is where practice comes into play, start off small and work up, thinking of it as a sort of self-hypnosis helps, you have to be certain of what you want to accomplish. Theatrical rituals are just one way of going about things, I suppose a lot of this comes down to taste. I write a lot of horror and supernatural fiction myself, so ritual suits my personality.
I also agree with what you say about questioning oneself. Personally I think that all theists should investigate why they believe what they do and have a reasonable grasp of psychology to help ground themselves. A lot of people who take the route I have (Paganism of sorts) simply end up living in fairy land so to speak.

4. Same here, the only difference is that for purely psychological changes, I find ritual to be a big help. For physical things I take a different route, I put weight on over Christmas for example, so I changed my diet and lost the weight again. I didn't use ritual for that one, though if I'd needed extra willpower to stick to it, I might have done.

5. Awesome a lot of people find it a bit offputting, but to me it just makes sense.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I believe in God and it is not based on faith as you define it. My belief in God is based on fact and reasoning. You say that there is no evidence that god exist but what do you or an atheist believe is evidence. I say the existence of anything is evidence that something is real and qualifies as evidence of something.

The fact is that atheist have no evidence that God does not exist. It is the atheist that walks by faith, not the theist. The theist has many evidences with which to reason and the atheist actually has none.

Bless you brother. Keep believing for you have as much evidence to support your faith as there is in the universe and the unbeliever is just that, he does not believe the evidence that is.

I am not an athiest, I do believe in God
However, There is no evidence that God either exists or does not exist.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I fully agree that this is the case but you did not, in fact, answer the question.

If there was absolute proof God did not exist. I would accept the fact.
However you can not prove a negative in that way.

 

[jarofthoughts]

My belief in God did not stem from a need to believe in a God.

There was a void in my life that I couldn't put my finger on. My search to fill that void led me to God. If I didn't believe in God I would still be searching for that sense of completeness that only God can bring.

Aren't those two statements contradictory?
Also, you did not, in fact, answer the question.

 

[jarofthoughts]

If there was absolute proof God did not exist. I would accept the fact.
However you can not prove a negative in that way.

Do you apply the same standard to everything else that you cannot prove does not exist or is god a special case?

 

[jarofthoughts]

1. Hell somebody's got to be wrong and it may well be me. I'm not willing to restrict myself in life in the hopes that I've taken the right path. Instead I went for a religion that leaves you to do as you wish, while adding a little extra too. As long as you enjoy your religion I don't see it as time wasting any more than a hobby would be. I'm aware I have a different opinion on what religion should do than a lot of people

2. Don't get me wrong, most of the time if an answer can be known I want to know even if it's negative. When it comes to gods I don't think we can know, so people might as well find something that suits them. Hell, make it up as you go along if you like, nothing wrong with a bit of religious "roleplaying" so to speak. As far as theism and atheism goes I see atheism as neutral (not affecting your life positively or negatively) while theism can go either way. With that in mind, a form of theism which enhances your life seems an obvious choice. That's just my opinion though

3. That's a very good point, you do have to be careful you don't overdo it. This is where practice comes into play, start off small and work up, thinking of it as a sort of self-hypnosis helps, you have to be certain of what you want to accomplish. Theatrical rituals are just one way of going about things, I suppose a lot of this comes down to taste. I write a lot of horror and supernatural fiction myself, so ritual suits my personality.
I also agree with what you say about questioning oneself. Personally I think that all theists should investigate why they believe what they do and have a reasonable grasp of psychology to help ground themselves. A lot of people who take the route I have (Paganism of sorts) simply end up living in fairy land so to speak.

4. Same here, the only difference is that for purely psychological changes, I find ritual to be a big help. For physical things I take a different route, I put weight on over Christmas for example, so I changed my diet and lost the weight again. I didn't use ritual for that one, though if I'd needed extra willpower to stick to it, I might have done.

5. Awesome a lot of people find it a bit offputting, but to me it just makes sense.

Seems we agree more than we disagree then.
Personally I am an empiricist first and foremost and the fact that I am an atheist is more of a consequence of that.

 

[Kathryn]

A very valid answer.
What makes you think that there is a god then?

Oh let's not even go there.

Just as you will not be able to disprove God to me, I will not be able to prove God to you - surely you know that.

 

[Blackheart]

I believe in God and it is not based on faith as you define it. My belief in God is based on fact and reasoning. You say that there is no evidence that god exist but what do you or an atheist believe is evidence. I say the existence of anything is evidence that something is real and qualifies as evidence of something.

The fact is that atheist have no evidence that God does not exist. It is the atheist that walks by faith, not the theist. The theist has many evidences with which to reason and the atheist actually has none.

Bless you brother. Keep believing for you have as much evidence to support your faith as there is in the universe and the unbeliever is just that, he does not believe the evidence that is.

Very well said. My God is real and I experience him everyday. If someone can prove to me that I am not typing this response then they may be capable of proving that my God doesnt exist. But when I wake upo tomorrow morning my God will be there again proving that he is waiting to hang out with me again. To believe that he does not exist really does take faith as you certainly cant find any evidence to prove it.

 

[blackout]

I define gOd into Being.

Which actually puts ME in the God seat.

I'm pretty sure I exist.

If I don't exist, it hardly matters what I might wish for.

 

[blackout]

Besides that,
I understand and agree with
every single thing Shyanekh said.

What else is new?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Very well said. My God is real and I experience him everyday. If someone can prove to me that I am not typing this response then they may be capable of proving that my God doesnt exist. But when I wake upo tomorrow morning my God will be there again proving that he is waiting to hang out with me again. To believe that he does not exist really does take faith as you certainly cant find any evidence to prove it.

Good for you, but all of that is, in fact, irrelevant with regards to the question asked.

Care to answer that instead?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Oh let's not even go there.

Just as you will not be able to disprove God to me, I will not be able to prove God to you - surely you know that.

I didn't ask you to prove anything to me, and as mentioned several times over already in this tread, proving a negative is impossible, so that won't happen in any case.

I merely assumed you must have good reason to believe that he exist, considering your original answer.
I was asking if you would share those reasons.

 

[Kathryn]

Jar, I almost didn't respond at all to this thread, because I figured it was a thinly veiled hook to simply challenge theists on God's existence. But then I figured, "Well, that's not what the OP is saying, so I'll respond thoughtfully and sincerely."

I guess my first hunch was right after all.

But - I'll humor you.

I believe that God is real because I see His work all around me, in my life, in my heart, in the world. I have seen evidence over and over again that He truly does have a plan for my life, and that when I learn from my experiences and submit my will to His, I am showered with more grace and more blessings than I deserve or expected.

I feel His love surround me sometimes so strongly that it takes my breath away.

Now - keep in mind that I am a very logical, objective sort of person. My gosh, I am a banker for pete's sake, and not prone to sentimentality. I'm also well read, and love to study and research issues.

My faith has been profoundly shaken through personal tragedies and sorrows in my life several times, but I have never lost it completely, even though I felt like throwing it to the wayside several times. In fact, I have misplaced it a time or two - and as a result made some serious missteps a few times.

But God's grace has never faltered, even when I have.

 

[Blackheart]

Good for you, but all of that is, in fact, irrelevant with regards to the question asked.

Care to answer that instead?

I know. Im sorry. I was actually responding to someone else not you. But now that you have demonstrated my disobedience I will be humble and address your question.

If God did not exist then I would obviously not exist therefore I wouldnt be doing anything

 

[jarofthoughts]

Jar, I almost didn't respond at all to this thread, because I figured it was a thinly veiled hook to simply challenge theists on God's existence. But then I figured, "Well, that's not what the OP is saying, so I'll respond thoughtfully and sincerely."

And I appreciate that.

I guess my first hunch was right after all.

As you said, it is not something that we will be able to prove or disprove. This question is less about the actual existence of god than it is about the mindset concerning the position. I fully accept that some would not want to discuss that and would not think less of them for it.

But - I'll humor you.

Thank you.

I believe that God is real because I see His work all around me, in my life, in my heart, in the world. I have seen evidence over and over again that He truly does have a plan for my life, and that when I learn from my experiences and submit my will to His, I am showered with more grace and more blessings than I deserve or expected.

Evidence and conclusive observation indicates some, however vague, hypothesis of some kind, wouldn't you agree?
If so, would you share your hypothesis and how you tested it?

I feel His love surround me sometimes so strongly that it takes my breath away.

This is different from the above. I'm not saying that it is invalid in any way, but it is different from observation and evidence.

Now - keep in mind that I am a very logical, objective sort of person. My gosh, I am a banker for pete's sake, and not prone to sentimentality. I'm also well read, and love to study and research issues.

Duly noted, and I confess I never thought otherwise.

At this point though, I am wondering if god is a special case with many people who are otherwise prone to logic and objectivity. Please don't be offended by this though. I'm trying to understand your position.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I know. Im sorry. I was actually responding to someone else not you. But now that you have demonstrated my disobedience I will be humble and address your question.

If God did not exist then I would obviously not exist therefore I wouldnt be doing anything

I'm sorry, but you still haven't answered my question.
I'll try to clarify.
If, hypothetically speaking, there was no god, and you existed anyway so that you might consider this question, would you want to believe in one anyway?

 

[Kathryn]

I'm not a scientist. I haven't kept a notebook of evidence and observations. I guess I could give you a lot of personal stories if you like, but they wouldn't prove anything to you, and to be honest, I prefer that events in my personal life aren't picked apart as if they were a clinical experiment, ya know?

I haven't "tested" God. Well, I'm sure I've tested His PATIENCE, but if you mean how have I tested my hypotheses - I haven't. Not formally.

I've "tested" my concept of and relationship with God much as most people "test" a lover, or a best friend, or their mother. And by that I don't mean manipulative, suspicious, insecure people.

I have heard that "small, still voice" many times in my life, and it's hard to explain, but when I do hear it , I KNOW it is God showing me the way, or comforting me. He has calmed my heart when it was in the tumult of intense grief, and fear, and anger. His presence in my life has given me strength when my strength was gone.

 

[1AOA1]

I'm sorry, but you still haven't answered my question.
I'll try to clarify.
If, hypothetically speaking, there was no god, and you existed anyway so that you might consider this question, would you want to believe in one anyway?

'If hypothetically speaking, there was no god, and you existed anyway so that you might consider this question, would you [be an atheist]'.

Since 'believe in' describes the relationship to a reality (like 'believe in' the sun cant directly see) are you asking if they would be an atheist (non-solarist) who would want God (a sun)?

 

[Erebus]

Seems we agree more than we disagree then.
Personally I am an empiricist first and foremost and the fact that I am an atheist is more of a consequence of that.

It does look that way
Thanks for the debate, it's been interesting

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do you apply the same standard to everything else that you cannot prove does not exist or is god a special case?

God is a special case.
However there are many things I accept as true with out asking for proof. So I have only one standard to go by.