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Question from a friendly atheist to faithful Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Question from a friendly atheist to faithful Christians, Muslims and Jews:


Is there any item within God’s doctrine (defined sins, requirements of faith/observance, standards fort punishment/reward in any afterlife, etc.) according to your own personal understanding of that doctrine, that you either disagree with or wish were not so? If so, what is it/are they?
There are Biblical truths, such as the predestination of God, that I found hard to accept at first but had faith that they were in essence good and submitted to what the Bible was clearly saying. After more study, prayer and growth I began to see the beauty in God's sovereignty, and it went from being something disagreeable to one of the most marvellous and comforting attributes of God.

So in summary, I suppose there used to be a few things that bothered me, but now I understand them better and see the beauty in them and how God is glorified by them.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Hi, Rosends. If rules are indeed rules, do you have a rule of thumb or some other standard by which you can sift which rules you obey and which you can eschew? "No bacon" and "no lobster" are pretty straightforward and easy (and, not to taunt you, but PHENOMENALLY delicious), but I assume you have knowingly worn a blended fabric at one time or another. Or at least resisted the injunction to put a known homosexual to death. Or someone who worked on Saturday. (If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

But, I ask my question because I suspect, on balance, people follow a certain faith up to the point wherein the doctrine of that faith jibes with the pre-existing ethics of the individual, and dispense with those parts of doctrine that aren't appealing. Adherence to kashruth is an interesting situation: it prevents the observant Jew from enjoying bacon and oysters, but it gives them access to the solidarity of the Jewish community and assuages aversions to unclean foods inculcated from childhood.

I dislike a great proportion of doctrine among the Abrahamic faiths and I THINK (though I can't say for sure) I would do so even if I were faithful. I was wondering if there are those among believers any large number who submit to their sectarian doctrine, believing in it fully, but who resent or at least dislike parts of it.
You ask a good question -- at what point does a practice become normative or fringe, accepted or rejected by the populace, and at what point are there laws which people pick and choose.

Rules in Judaism are a combination of codified law and communally shared practice. Are there ones which are "law" and yet which I don't follow? Sure -- I'm as pick and choose as the next guy and sometimes I do it with an attempt to rationalize my logic, while other times I simply say "this isn't working for me right now." And that second option? Sometimes my thinking is "I want to get this right when I'm ready" and other times I think " this is wrong so I'll have to face the punishment for it someday."

It isn't easy, but I rarely "rebel" by dining fault with the source.
 

Thana

Lady
Ah, so. Is your acceptance of "the bible as is" literal? Or more... inspirational?

I take what is literal as literal and what is allegorical as allegorical.
'Course everyone says that. But I try and use my best judgement, and I think that's all thats expected. I don't assume that I'm right about everything though.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Hey, Scott C. LOVE the scuba pic.

As I have said earlier in this thread, I am WOEFULLY unversed in the specifics of Mormon doctrine, so please forgive me if I lump your tenets in with all other Christian beliefs.

Let's take you, personally, out of the equation. Let's then take a given Christian precept: "homosexual sex is evil" (it doesn't have to be that. it could be any particular faith-informed belief) or "people who fail in regard to standard X, Y or Z go to Hell."

If God asked your opinion, are there any of these that YOU would recommend he changed?

No I would not recommend to God that he change his position on homosexuality. Since I believe God is omniscient, that would be terribly arrogant. But I do enjoy some beliefs more than others. I don't particularly enjoy the fact that homosexuality is pretty common, I have gay friends, and yet it is a sin. But it doesn't really matter if it makes me uncomfortable, it is what it is.

And yeah the scuba diving was fantastic. :)
 
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Kirby D. P.

Member
I take what is literal as literal and what is allegorical as allegorical.
'Course everyone says that. But I try and use my best judgement, and I think that's all thats expected. I don't assume that I'm right about everything though.
Quick list (no land mines here -- I promise. Just curious). Could you rate these items as literal or allegorical, so far as you are concerned?
6 x 24 hr Day Creation
6,000-ish year old Earth
Kill people who have gay sex
Sell daughters into permanent slavery
Induce abortions in women suspected of infidelity (Num 5:12)
Infinite damnation for finite transgressions

Like I say, no wrong answers. Just want a temperature read. Thanks.
 

Thana

Lady
Quick list (no land mines here -- I promise. Just curious). Could you rate these items as literal or allegorical, so far as you are concerned?
6 x 24 hr Day Creation
I don't take it literally, God isn't the kind of being I'd apply my perception of time to anyway.
6,000-ish year old Earth
That's just a number, and not one that's proven.
Kill people who have gay sex
That's Jewish Law.
Sell daughters into permanent slavery
You'd have to provide scripture for me to properly address that.
Induce abortions in women suspected of infidelity (Num 5:12)
That's Anti-Christian nonsense. The verse reads that the abdomen will swell and the thigh waste away, nothing to do with abortion or pregnancy.
Babies don't come from your stomach, in case you didn't know. ;)
Infinite damnation for finite transgressions
We're eternal beings, atleast our souls are. I imagine that is the determining factor, not the transgressions but how they taint your eternal soul.
But that's just speculation. In all honesty, I don't know.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
And hello, Katzpur. I am not 100% clear on Mormon views on sin. Like many other Christian sects, do Mormons (and/or do you) consider things like homosexuality and extramarital sex as sin? (PS -- I'm not asking because I indulge in either, they are just the two first easy examples that come to mind.)
As a Christian denomination, Mormonism teaches that sexual intimacy is to be between a married man and his wife, and that any other sexual intimacy is sinful. It also teaches that it is also a sin to judge others, and that the judging should be left in God's hands. One of my favorite Mormon leaders recently gave a sermon in which he mentioned a bumper sticker he'd seen and liked. It said, "Don't judge me because I sin differently from you." That's how I like to try to live my life.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I'd like to know what all the fuss is about bacon.
And I'd like to be able to buy cheaper meat.

Alas.
 

Kirby D. P.

Member
Seems good to me.
???

So you're including things like killing of homosexuals, witches and people who do work on Saturday in the category of "seems good"? Sorry, I'm not trying to paint you into any corner, but the Tanakh says what the Tanakh says.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The problems I have with my religion are mostly about the institutional side of it. The Vatican is a mess. It's slowly getting better, but they have a lot of work to do and it'll take longer than any of our lifetimes for it to be where it should be.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
The problems I have with my religion are mostly about the institutional side of it. The Vatican is a mess. It's slowly getting better, but they have a lot of work to do and it'll take longer than any of our lifetimes for it to be where it should be.
Ya never know, churches can change very quickly. The Second Vatican Council was a quite substantial leap, and after the much media-hated Benedict I don't think anyone expected a media-loved reforming Pope Francis.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
???

So you're including things like killing of homosexuals, witches and people who do work on Saturday in the category of "seems good"? Sorry, I'm not trying to paint you into any corner, but the Tanakh says what the Tanakh says.
But the religion doesn't say that. The question wasn't about the wording of a text but about doctrine as far as I recall.
 
Question from a friendly atheist to faithful Christians, Muslims and Jews:


Is there any item within God’s doctrine (defined sins, requirements of faith/observance, standards fort punishment/reward in any afterlife, etc.) according to your own personal understanding of that doctrine, that you either disagree with or wish were not so? If so, what is it/are they?
Jesus' teaching to not divorce and remarry is a tough one, but I see life in it.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Ya never know, churches can change very quickly. The Second Vatican Council was a quite substantial leap, and after the much media-hated Benedict I don't think anyone expected a media-loved reforming Pope Francis.
The Vatican's going to have to change if it wants to have any credibility, anyway. The youth are leaving in droves in the West. They can't act like an absolute monarchy, snobbishly dictating to us archaic viewpoints anymore, while their own crimes and abuses are laid bare for all to see. It's not holding up. Francis is certainly a great step in the right direction.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
???

So you're including things like killing of homosexuals, witches and people who do work on Saturday in the category of "seems good"? Sorry, I'm not trying to paint you into any corner, but the Tanakh says what the Tanakh says.

So you're saying that courts and laws are not good?
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
"ingsoc"
Was that word used in this thread? I can't find it right now but looked up what the
word meant.
"In George Orwell's 1984, a so-called Socialist revolution joined the territories of the Americas with those of the British Empire and renamed the new area "Oceania."
 
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