Question on Intelligent Design

[godnotgod]

I have already stated you can't know Universal consciousness without personal consciousness the brain being the receptor and you are putting the cart in front of the horse and didn't like my response which was solid. Everything you wrote above was your personal consciousness at work, a Universal consciousness did not, come up with it or write it. For one, a universal consciousness doesn't use bad TV set analogies for the way the brain works.

.

OK, now answer to this:

What is it that knows that it is personal consciousness that knows UC? See the dilemma?

 

[ArtieE]

We have been over the 'tree in the forest' question extensively on these forums, and the conclusion is that, no, there is no sound, as sound is dependent upon a receptor and a processor to interpret sound pressure waves as auditory sound. Only pressure waves are present. No actual sound. None. Zip. Nada.

And since we have been over this you really should have learned by now that the definition of sound is also "Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing." "Transmitted vibrations of any frequency." sound

 

[ArtieE]

So who, or what, was present before the brain created the self, if in fact that is what occurred.

I don't understand the question. The combined DNA from my parents built or "evolved" this brain until it became "me".

The self, or the identity of a person, is the product of one's social indoctrination and environment.

The self is a combination of how my parents DNA built this brain and what this brain experiences.

 

[ArtieE]

Heh...heh...well now, if there was a point in your existence when 'you' developed consciousness,

The instructions in the DNA grew this brain in this skull and as the brain developed it generated the basic "me".

And by the way, can you tell me how it is that a baby knows the game of Peek-A-Boo without ever having been taught the game?

If it does it would be because the instructions in the DNA produced a brain hard wired to know it.

 

[godnotgod]

And since we have been over this you really should have learned by now that the definition of sound is also "Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing." "Transmitted vibrations of any frequency." sound

Uh, huh...'capable' of being detected, but not actually detected, since 'detector' is in place. And so, there are vibrations, but no sound that is actually heard. Your definition includes human hearing, but no human is present. Sorry, no soap, no audible sound actually heard.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't understand the question. The combined DNA from my parents built or "evolved" this brain until it became "me".

By 'me' do you mean your identity? Did you have an identity you were aware of at the moment of birth? Were you conscious at the moment of birth?

The self is a combination of how my parents DNA built this brain and what this brain experiences.

An infant has experiences, but does it have a sense of self yet? That is to say, does it know who it is at birth? Did you? You include 'experiences', which would have to mean interchange with the outside world, which over time would lead up to a sense of 'me' and 'things out there'. But before that develops, what? Where is 'self'?

The Buddhists take it back further, and ask:

"What did your face look like before your mother was born?"

No comprende?

 

[ArtieE]

Uh, huh...'capable' of being detected, but not actually detected, since 'detector' is in place. And so, there are vibrations, but no sound that is actually heard. Your definition includes human hearing, but no human is present. Sorry, no soap, no audible sound actually heard.

"something heard or that may be heard:
[ C ] They could hear the sound of an airplane overhead."
sound Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

"Sound is energy that travels in waves through air, water, or other substances, and can be heard.
The aeroplane will travel at twice the speed of sound."
Sound definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

"In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a transmission medium such as air or water. In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain."
Sound - Wikipedia

It appears that you don't understand that in physics "sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a transmission medium such as air or water." You seem to think that sound is only the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain. You completely ignore and leave out the physics definition.

 

[godnotgod]

The instructions in the DNA grew this brain in this skull and as the brain developed it generated the basic "me".If it does it would be because the instructions in the DNA produced a brain hard wired to know it.

Oh, really? "the instructions in the brain' did it. OK. So where did these 'instructions' originate from? So there is something that 'knows' how to program the DNA.

Are you saying your DNA knows how to play Peek A Boo, and includes the game like Microsoft includes Solitaire, or how the HAL 9000 knows how to sing 'Daisy'?

 

[godnotgod]

"something heard or that may be heard:
[ C ] They could hear the sound of an airplane overhead."
sound Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

"Sound is energy that travels in waves through air, water, or other substances, and can be heard.
The aeroplane will travel at twice the speed of sound."
Sound definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

"In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a transmission medium such as air or water. In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain."
Sound - Wikipedia

It appears that you don't understand that in physics "sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a transmission medium such as air or water." You seem to think that sound is only the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain. You completely ignore and leave out the physics definition.

Then I disagree with the physics definition. I agree that there are pressure waves, but for sound to be sound, it must be actually heard by ears and brain. Other than that, there is no such 'sound'. The potential is present, but no heard sound. The pressure waves need to be detected by ears, then converted and processed by a conscious brain . Until then, you only have waves.

I think we can be fairly certain that whoever asked the original question did not have a physics definition of sound in mind, but one that is more like "the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain."

 

[ArtieE]

By 'me' do you mean your identity? Did you have an identity you were aware of at the moment of birth? Were you conscious at the moment of birth?

Don't know how conscious I was at birth. Here is some information about that.
https://www.wired.com/2013/04/baby-consciousness/
When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies?

It appears that babies start to show signs of self-awareness at about 18 months and start to say I, me, mine.
Self-Awareness

 

[godnotgod]

Don't know how conscious I was at birth. Here is some information about that.
https://www.wired.com/2013/04/baby-consciousness/
When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies?

It appears that babies start to show signs of self-awareness at about 18 months and start to say I, me, mine.
Self-Awareness

OK, so before that, but after birth, what was the case? Where is the part of the self that is about 'experiences'? During the first 18 months, there are certainly experiences and DNA present, but still no sense of self, or identity.

 

[ArtieE]

Oh, really? "the instructions in the brain' did it. OK. So where did these 'instructions' originate from? So there is something that 'knows' how to program the DNA.

Are you saying your DNA knows how to play Peek A Boo, and includes the game like Microsoft includes Solitaire, or how the HAL 9000 knows how to sing 'Daisy'?

Listen, your questions are so childish and simplistic it sounds like you've never heard of gene duplication or mutation or epigenetics and I can't start teaching you the basics. For you and all the others interested just search for information on Google or look for books.

 

[ArtieE]

OK, so before that, but after birth, what was the case? Where is the part of the self that is about 'experiences'? During the first 18 months, there are certainly experiences and DNA present, but still no sense of self, or identity.

Oh boy, try to read something else besides all the mumbo jumbo you seem to swallow whole. You will learn so much...

 

[godnotgod]

Listen, your questions are so childish and simplistic it sounds like you've never heard of gene duplication or mutation or epigenetics and I can't start teaching you the basics. For you and all the others interested just search for information on Google or look for books.

Ha ha ha....COP OUT!

 

[godnotgod]

Oh boy, try to read something else besides all the mumbo jumbo you seem to swallow whole. You will learn so much...

Heh...heh..heh...got too hot for 'ya, eh? So 'ya COPPED OUT!

 

[godnotgod]

Sorry, folks, but seems Artie had an epiphany, having taken one step out of the Materialist Paradigm Cave, took one look at The Sun, and scrambled back in for safety and comfort, heart pounding wildly.

I will provide answers to my questions directed at him a little later for the benefit of those hanging around with bated breath.

Toodles.

 

[godnotgod]

Listen, your questions are so childish and simplistic it sounds like you've never heard of gene duplication or mutation or epigenetics and I can't start teaching you the basics. For you and all the others interested just search for information on Google or look for books.

FYI, I was a Marine Invertebrate Zoology major at San Francisco State University. Ya, was exposed to evolution and genetics. I'm afraid there's something far greater to it than sterile reductionist Thienthe, not that I have anything against Thienthe, mind you.

Child: 'Papa, why is the sky blue?'
Father: 'Well, because of the oxygen, son, heh, heh.'
Child: 'Oh.'
*****

Child: 'Grampa monk, what color is that tree?'
Monk: 'Why, it's the color that it is, dear.'
*****

 

[godnotgod]

1. You are speaking in god-language (Beyond. The Absolute. Etc)

2. Different approach: Stop using metaphysics to talk about simple concepts. Everything a be explained in human language without it needing to confusing any of the people you talk with on this thread not just me.

No, you are hearing things you want to hear.

3. Getting to know me is showing interest in my point of view. Any communication medium mutual interests needs to be present before anyone can learn anything. This goes for any person you talk with: stranger, acquaintance, friend, loved one, whomever. Being online does not exclude conversation generalities but of course this depends on where you are from and your culture.

But I am not interested in your personal view; what does that have to do with whether there is Intelligence in The Universe or not? There are many personal views about Reality, then there is Reality itself. Let's talk about Reality, and the way things actually are, instead of opinions and concepts and personal views.

4. It is OKAY that you do not believe in Buddhist teachings. The Buddha taught suffering is birth/age/sickness/death and understanding it is liberation, and once one is liberated he no longer goes through rebirth in understanding it but actually dies does not suffer any longer. If you disagree, that's your right.

I never said I do not believe in Buddhist teachings. Buddhist teachings are not about beliefs, but about seeing into the true nature of Reality. The Heart Sutra, for example, is the Buddha's direct insight into the nature of all phenomena. His insight has nothing to do with any beliefs, and neither should yours or mine.

"Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinions"
3rd Zen Patriarch

5. You cannot see things as they are if you are trying to convince people as if they don't know who they are to themselves.

Huh?

If anything, the more you talk to me, the more you going into delusions. Many Zen practitioners do not talk for this reason. In the monastery I want to go to way up in the mountains, they have retreats where we cannot speak a word. It's all in service to each other and to the local community.

The more you are trying to defend your point right, the more I'm convinced you only know what your mind is telling you and mistaking what you are thinking (opinions) for facts. Many people do it. Many.

You are not an exclusion.

Show me one delusive thought I have stated on this forum, or a doctrine you think I maintain that needs defending. If you can't, and you won't, then just retract your statement at your convenience.

This forum is not a Zendo or a monastery where we practice. It is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We talk about things here. You are reading me through your filters. I assure you my comments are not my personal views.

 

[godnotgod]

The instructions in the DNA grew this brain in this skull and as the brain developed it generated the basic "me"..

Oh, yeah? Who, or what, told it to do so?

 

[Darkstorn]

Heh...heh..heh...got too hot for 'ya, eh? So 'ya COPPED OUT!

After all the high-horsed self-righteousness you've shown so far, i really didn't expect you to break down like this.

Seriously. You are selling yourself short with your lack of effort.