So if he no longer was subject to rebirth, and suffering came to an end, then there is something 'beyond this world of suffering', which you deny. But the Buddha's teaching did not say one had to die first in order to be liberated; he achieved liberation while still alive in this world.
What do you think death is?
(Maybe you're seeing death through an abrahamic view? I don't know, but Dharmic view of death is a cycle not linear.) Actually, many religions outside of Abrahamic, such as African religions, don't view death as the final end but a cycle. There is an African quote I saw once that said when babies are born, they are the reincarnation (for lack of better translation) of elders when they pass away
physically.
That, and how can I deny something that I do not believe is true?
Maybe you mean, I deny what you believe is true. That, yes, I reject it. Deny is too passive of a word for me in this context.
To end suffering, yes, you have to understand it. When the physical body dies after understanding kamma and suffering, it no longer goes through the cycle of rebirth. The need to understand is gone, and the cycle ends. There is no more suffering. That is death.
Liberation is the end of suffering. When you die
and no longer need to be reborn you fully understand the nature of suffering, and you actually no longer need to be present in this life to understand it. You have no reason to be here. I read in some Buddhist cosmology, there are other realms that enlightened people go to depending on their level of enlightenment. Then again, there are over thousands of suttas and sutras, so who is to say for sure about the levels.
The Buddha is a human being not a god or immortal. Why would you think he is excluded from suffering?
The mind with which the Buddha understood the nature of suffering and of this world was an enlightened mind. It is that mind which is in the state of Absolute Joy.
If the average man realized the enlightened mind he already has, he would be free of suffering. But he has not yet realized his own enlightenment, thinking birth, age, sickness, and death to be the reality he is locked into and from which there is no escape
Another god-word: Absolute Joy (Why the caps?) The Buddha said he suffered to. We are all part of suffering.
In order to be free from suffering, you have to be free from birth, age, sickness, and death. When you are no longer reborn in this cycle of kamma, you are liberated. There is no "revelations" and no "coming-back".
The point of The Buddha being The Buddha is that he did escape suffering. He didn't die on the cross like jesus, though. He just understood it from many times of rebirth, practice, and reflection. When he finally got it, he passed it on to his bodhisattvas and disciples. When he finally died, his disciples carried on his oral Dhamma. Now, what we read as his Dhamma is the words of his disciples. The Buddha didn't write anything down. It's not an abrahamic religion. De ja vu.
And so he creates a future world after physical death and a God to alleviate himself from metaphysical anxiety, but that is only temporary alleviation.
Huh???????? Are you trying to explain god in a godless religion to a godless person with god-related concepts that this person behind the screen reads as a foreign language????
The reason the average man thinks he is imprisoned is because he is asleep, dreaming, and thinks the dream to be reality. The problem with the average man is that he thinks he has a self called 'I'.
You can mysticize it all you want. It just means "we don't understand due to our upbringing into suffering. What we consider who we are is actually not who we are (Mahayana) but who we are is our capacity to be enlightened.
What you're saying sounds like "we are dead to inherited sin and to wake up, we need to understand we are sinners (the I) so we can see the light in some mystical world; and then say, we average humans can't understand it.
The Buddha taught otherwise.
It is this self that is the key to liberation because if there is no self, then there is no one who is born, ages, gets sick, and dies.
There is, in fact, only birth, aging, sickness, and death. Remember that Buddhism teaches that the real you is not your body. The Heart Sutra makes it clear that no phenomena, including man, has no inherent self-nature. IOW, we are empty of a self-nature.
The Heart Sutra is Mahayana teachings. It's one of the most popular of Buddhist teachings. Theravada is quite different on their approach to what Self is. They just say we are in illusions so there is no definition of who we are. We give ourselves definitions and that brings suffering. So, some people practice Zen to get rid of that. Some chant Daimoku to find their true-nature of Buddhahood. Some meditate to self-reflect. Some do this... some do that...
They all practice. Not philosophize.
So contrary to what you think, the Buddha did NOT die, because he transcended the illusion of self.
And you will not die because there is no self that is born or dies. Your true nature is Unconditioned Consciousness, thinking it is born, ages, gets sick, and dies.
It is a fiction you will one day realize. Until then, it is reality for you. That is just the way it is. If you are going to do real spiritual work, you would put all your energies into spiritual Awakening, but you won't do a thing until it dawns on you that you are not awake, though you think yourself to be so awakened.
Do you think he is some spirit abstract thought just hanging around like god entity or something?
This consciousness goes back to the intelligents thing. It's god-talk. I do not understand it.
Our physical bodies die. We live in spirit until we are ready to go in spirit. That is what I personally believe. From a Buddhist perspective, I don't know how to translate the afterlife. I just know death is not the end. We are in a cycle of rebirth. I believe in spirits many buddhist do not. A lot of them do believe in their ancestors and many I've witness do believe people are in different levels of understanding but have not reached enlightenment yet. When they do, they no longer suffer. They
pass away.
You cling to the Buddha's teachings and so have baggage, which is now an obstacle to your Awakening.
They have become a belief system for you. The Buddha's own Raft Sutra (look it up) makes clear that we should let the raft (ie The Dharma) go. Why? Because when you realize your own Enlightenment, you become the embodiment of the Dharma itself, because your authentic Self is the true source of the Dharma, not any scripture.
This is also assuming that I bring the Dhamma with me like a christian does his Bible. I don't know where you live or who you are, but it's impossible to really read what's on the screen and determine whether I'm eating pizza and chatting with a friend over nonesense or really immersed in this conversation and suttas as if, like christians, if you don't understand me, you're going to hell.
I was not raised that way.
It sounds like you have some bias you have to get over first. Once you do that, then you can see life without attachments to correcting others for their truth and just believe what you believe and
talk about it.
It is crucial that you understand what I mean when I say that the true nature of Reality lies beyond this world.
No it's not. Where did you get that from?
My values are totally different than what we are discussing. I just find truth and facts in what The Buddha taught. It's not my faith. It's life.
I mean that it is beyond our ordinary view of what this world actually is. In reality, the experience is as close to you as your breath, an inner experience that is a transformation of consciousness from our ordinary conditioned view of life to a wholly unconditioned view; from a self-view to that of a universal one in which the self is dissolved (ie Nirvana) and an unfolding and awakening occurs, an experience beyond all words and beyond all ideas about what Reality actually is.
The Buddhistic transformation of consciousness that is beyond our ordinary view of life is not a philosophy; it is the direct inner authentic experience of the true nature of Reality. Everything else pales in comparison.
That is god-language.
The Dhamma IS ordinary life.
The Buddha has nothing to do with it.
You still cling to this life and to this world.
Do not allow this to be a deadweight that will carry you to the bottom. Did you know that 'dust' is a Buddhist metaphor for the suffering of this world?, which is why Buddhists say they have 'no attachment to dust'., an allusion to Hui Neng, the 6th Zen Patriarch, who said:
Yes. I value this world. It took me a long hull to be alive today. I'm not like abrahamic god-believers who put down this world for a spiritual one.
Again, that comparison does not match with me. If you want me to understand, try another approach.
This applies even to the concept of self we maintain as reality. Let go the notion of self, and there will be liberation.
Let go the notion of ego and what we think we know. Drop it all for what we observe, reflect on, experience, and practice then we grow to understand life and be liberated.
One think I like about Hindu teachings is that you have a guru to help you out in the process. Unless in a monastary, I'm not familiar with any Buddhist priests that help lay Buddhists or lay followers on the road. Westerners see it as a solitary road. It actually isn't. If you follow the Hindu threads when they talk about community and service, it's basically that.
What we say here is based on upbringing and probably indoctrination? I don't know. That's my bias.
We all have them.
