Question on the death of Jesus

[esmith]

In Matt 20:17-19 and Mark 10:32-34 Jesus says that he will be mocked and flogged and crucified. Yet when the time comes, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34, he asks God why he has forsaken him. What is this, a oops moment? Did he finally realize that he got what he was asking for, but thought that God would intercede for him?

 

[Sweetvoice]

In Matt 20:17-19 and Mark 10:32-34 Jesus says that he will be mocked and flogged and crucified. Yet when the time comes, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34, he asks God why he has forsaken him. What is this, a oops moment? Did he finally realize that he got what he was asking for, but thought that God would intercede for him?

I had been thinking about this question too. Sound to me it is an oops moment. As well, when he was speaking to god, how could he be god at the same time, as some christians will claim. But that is my query rather than an answer for you.

Oops.

 

[Kathryn]

At that moment in time, Jesus bore the sins of the world. Jesus is fully divine, but also fully human. His human death is imminent, He is in great pain, and He is bearing mankind's sin on His bloody shoulders. What makes Jesus so compelling is that He embraces human emotion - and this is His humanity showing. Surely a person, even the Son of God, can feel pain, fear, and grief as they die a painful and humiliating death.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is described in this way in the Baha'i Scriptures:

...they hanged Him on the cross, where He cried out, ‘O My beloved Lord, how long wilt Thou abandon Me to them? Lift Me up unto Thee, shelter Me close to Thee, make Me a dwelling by Thy throne of glory. Verily art Thou the Answerer of prayers, and Thou art the Clement, the Merciful. O My Lord! Verily this world with all its vastness can no longer contain Me, and I love this cross, out of love for Thy beauty, and yearning for Thy realm on high, and because of this fire, fanned by the gusts of Thy holiness, aflame within My heart. Help me, O Lord, to ascend unto Thee, sustain Me that I may reach unto Thy sacred Threshold, O My loving Lord! Verily Thou art the Merciful, the Possessor of great bounty! Verily Thou art the Generous! Verily Thou art the Compassionate! Verily Thou art the All-Knowing! There is none other God save Thee, the Mighty, the Powerful!’

-Selection of the Writings of Abdulbaha

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In Matt 20:17-19 and Mark 10:32-34 Jesus says that he will be mocked and flogged and crucified. Yet when the time comes, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34, he asks God why he has forsaken him. What is this, a oops moment? Did he finally realize that he got what he was asking for, but thought that God would intercede for him?

"My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?" is the first line of Psalm 22.

Psalm 22 may be relevant for two reasons:

- its overall message is that God is with us even when things seem their worst.
- it has a passage that is echoed in the Gospel description of the events surrounding the crucifixion:

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

I've read that in that era, Psalms were known by their first line (like songs are known today), not by number, so Jesus saying "my God, my God, why have you foresaken me?" would've been equivalent to him saying "Remember Psalm 22!"

Now... whether it was to comfort the crowd or to call attention to a "prophecy"... that's a matter for debate.

But the short version: it's an allusion to Psalm 22.

 

[Kathryn]

Best short book on this very topic is "Death on a Friday Afternoon."

Of course, if you just want to watch a movie instead, watch "Jesus Christ Superstar."

 

[Kathryn]

[youtube]A99gvKl05cU[/youtube]
YouTube - JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR - Gethsemane / The Arrest part 1

 

[Thief]

In Matt 20:17-19 and Mark 10:32-34 Jesus says that he will be mocked and flogged and crucified. Yet when the time comes, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34, he asks God why he has forsaken him. What is this, a oops moment? Did he finally realize that he got what he was asking for, but thought that God would intercede for him?

Knowing the pending consequence for what you say and do is one thing.

Losing contact with your God is something else.

The same Spirit that did bolster His every word.....during His ministry...
was silent during His last hour.

I suspect this will be true for each and every one of us.

There's another thread here at the forum about this same topic.
It broke down badly, for lack of focus.

I hope we do better this time.

 

[esmith]

"My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?" is the first line of Psalm 22.

Psalm 22 may be relevant for two reasons:

- its overall message is that God is with us even when things seem their worst.
- it has a passage that is echoed in the Gospel description of the events surrounding the crucifixion:



I've read that in that era, Psalms were known by their first line (like songs are known today), not by number, so Jesus saying "my God, my God, why have you foresaken me?" would've been equivalent to him saying "Remember Psalm 22!"

Now... whether it was to comfort the crowd or to call attention to a "prophecy"... that's a matter for debate.

But the short version: it's an allusion to Psalm 22.

So then why does not Luke and John have Jesus calling attention to a "prophecy". Could it be that who ever wrote Matthew and Mark took various writings that they found in the Tanakh and worked it into their writings to make them more poignant?

 

[Gharib]

At that moment in time, Jesus bore the sins of the world. Jesus is fully divine, but also fully human. His human death is imminent, He is in great pain, and He is bearing mankind's sin on His bloody shoulders. What makes Jesus so compelling is that He embraces human emotion - and this is His humanity showing. Surely a person, even the Son of God, can feel pain, fear, and grief as they die a painful and humiliating death.

so what about Jesus' second comming? do Christians believe that he died and then he will come to life again (maybe be born from another woman, possibly a virgin again)? because muslims believe that he never died, he was just raised from earth and is still an undead person - making him the oldest man alive - and then God will just send him down once again to live his life until he goes through the death that all humans do since we don't believe he is divine.

 

[Sweetvoice]

so what about Jesus' second comming? do Christians believe that he died and then he will come to life again (maybe be born from another woman, possibly a virgin again)? because muslims believe that he never died, he was just raised from earth and is still an undead person - making him the oldest man alive - and then God will just send him down once again to live his life until he goes through the death that all humans do since we don't believe he is divine.

I like your muslim story of a "undead" Jesus being raised to heaven better instead of the ressurection account. This is more palatable. However, your Jesus must be one of non-physical body for that to be even possible. The physical does not belong in the spirit realm.
However, this is not the topic for debate. Do you have a muslim version of Jesus crying out to his farther during the crucifiction to share?

 

[Gharib]

I like your muslim story of a "undead" Jesus being raised to heaven better instead of the ressurection account. This is more palatable. However, your Jesus must be one of non-physical body for that to be even possible. The physical does not belong in the spirit realm.
However, this is not the topic for debate. Do you have a muslim version of Jesus crying out to his farther during the crucifiction to share?

firstly, if you believe in God, then there is no such thing as impossible. i mean who gets to decide the rules around here, God or me and you?

secondly, Jesus was never crucified according to the islamic belief, so he never 'cried out'.

the story of Jesus and his Mother is best mentioned in Chapter 19 (named after Mary) of the Qur'an:

Surat Maryam - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????

as for the crucifiction part the following verses explain the islamic perspective:

The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.

And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant.

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

[4:153-159]

 

[Sweetvoice]

firstly, if you believe in God, then there is no such thing as impossible. i mean who gets to decide the rules around here, God or me and you?

secondly, Jesus was never crucified according to the islamic belief, so he never 'cried out'.

the story of Jesus and his Mother is best mentioned in Chapter 19 (named after Mary) of the Qur'an:

Surat Maryam - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????

as for the crucifiction part the following verses explain the islamic perspective:

The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.

And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant.

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

[4:153-159]

Okay, thanks for that. Well, well, it seem the muslim version has a look-alike impersonator for Jesus while he sneak away through the back door. Clever.

 

[Gharib]

Okay, thanks for that. Well, well, it seem the muslim version has a look-alike impersonator for Jesus while he sneak away through the back door. Clever.

i've heard that Prophet Muhamed salallah alayhi we salam has been reported to have said that the man who betrayed Jesus was made to look like him and it was him who was crucified. so 'a Jesus' was crucified but not THE JESUS. i hope that makes sense.

 

[Green Kepi]

What about the Bibles' statement that God cannot look upon sin...and that when Jesus bore the sins of the world upon Himself (?)...would not Jesus have cried out when He realized that God 'turned His face away from Him' for the first time ever?

 

[Thief]

What about the Bibles' statement that God cannot look upon sin...and that when Jesus bore the sins of the world upon Himself (?)...would not Jesus have cried out when He realized that God 'turned His face away from Him' for the first time ever?

Very nice!....you're thinking!

But I don't believe in the scapegoat theology.
That someone else died for your sake....doesn't mean you're not responsible
for whatever you say or do.

He didn't save anyone by His death.
It was His life and teachings...His parables...that save.

Without His word upon mind and heart....are you one of His?

 

[userque]

how could he be god at the same time, as some christians will claim. But that is my query rather than an answer for you

If you try to teach a bird calculus, you'd likely be wasting your time.

I recall the bible speaks to there being (obviously??) things relating to God etc. that we simply can't understand. Even so, suppose we cloned your DNA and a baby was born via surrogate with your exact DNA. Could the argument be made that you and the baby are one? Just an illustration.

 

[Pegg]

In Matt 20:17-19 and Mark 10:32-34 Jesus says that he will be mocked and flogged and crucified. Yet when the time comes, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34, he asks God why he has forsaken him. What is this, a oops moment? Did he finally realize that he got what he was asking for, but thought that God would intercede for him?

Jesus was fully human and his outcry indicates that he experienced pain and suffering, and the emotional turmoil that goes along with that, just as we do.
There was a very good reason why Gods only begotten son became a human in every respect, paul explains:
Hebrews 2:17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.

humanity experiences what it is like to be without Gods protection, and Jesus, at the very moment, was experiencing exactly that. God permitted that for our benefit so that Jesus would be a judge who could sympathize with us and judge us with mercy and understanding.

 

[esmith]

Jesus was fully human and his outcry indicates that he experienced pain and suffering, and the emotional turmoil that goes along with that, just as we do.
There was a very good reason why Gods only begotten son became a human in every respect, paul explains:
Hebrews 2:17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.

humanity experiences what it is like to be without Gods protection, and Jesus, at the very moment, was experiencing exactly that. God permitted that for our benefit so that Jesus would be a judge who could sympathize with us and judge us with mercy and understanding.

Comment on post #9 why Luke and John do not speak of this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So then why does not Luke and John have Jesus calling attention to a "prophecy". Could it be that who ever wrote Matthew and Mark took various writings that they found in the Tanakh and worked it into their writings to make them more poignant?

My only point was that there's a link between this Gospel story and Psalm 22. Whether this occurred because a literal Jesus literally said it, or because it a later author wanted to link the Gospel story to the Tanakh, that's something you'll have to decide for yourself.

It's not that surprising to me that John wouldn't include it, though, since it's rather different in tone and theme from the synoptic Gospels, and (apparently) comes from a different source.

Luke, OTOH, I don't know. Since (AFAIK) the leading theory is that Matthew and Luke were both derived from Mark (or a "proto-Mark") as well as other material, it could just be that the line was dropped during the creation of Luke.

However, this doesn't really speak to whether the event actually occurred, just to what happened to the text and the story over the years.