Question regarding ISKCON...

[Chakra]

Hey guys,
I've tried researching and haven't find any actual objective evidence for some of ISKCON's claims. What I mean is that one website says that Krishna, Vishnu, and Rama are all equal, while another website says that Krishna is superior to Vishnu. I would humbly request the ISKCONites here or anyone knowledgeable on the issue to tell me the ISKCON position on these topics:

1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?
2) Does ISKCON believe that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha?
3) Does ISKCON believe that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the Kali Yuga incarnation (for example, one website stated that each yuga has an incarnation, and Mahaprabhu is the incarnation for this Yuga) or do they believe that Chaitanya was a "hidden" incarnation?
4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?
5) Does ISKCON believe that there were two Buddhas and Gautama Siddhartha is not Vishnu's incarnation?

If need be, I can pull up the websites, but I don't think that will be necessary (and also quite time-consuming for me, since I don't take note of which websites I browse). These are the only questions I have right now, but if I have more, I will post them later on. Not asking for any proof if the claims are real, I just want to know ISKCON's positions on each claims. Also, quotes from any ISKCONite literature or from Prabhupada's lectures would help a lot.

Thanks and Hare Krishna.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Axlyz ji

I dont think I can give you the entire ISKCON line as I am afraid I also find some inconsistencies in the inturpretations , .... especialy recently .
I would realy appreciate to see some of the sites you have brought up , ....and who is giving the inturpretation , ...
if it was recently can you check your browser history ?

but I think it well worth comparing understandings , ....as I am not sure that there isnt difference of oppinion on some matters in all sampradayas ....

to do this we need to look carefully at the quotes and who is actualy saying what, ...
firstly I ought to point out that to me it would be a Vaisnava apradha to outrightly criticise a devotee of the lord even if I do beleive their understanding to be skewed , ....I can onlt politly put forward what I have been taught and what I find reasonable , and what I think our guru would say on the matter ,...


here for instance Srila prabhupada is quoting Jayadeva Goswami n the subject of the Buddha avatara
“ … we Vaisnava, we worship Lord Buddha,

kesava dhrta-Buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare.
Nindas yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam” [“O Kesava!
O Lord of the universe! O Lord Hari, who have assumed the
form of Buddha! All glories to You! O Buddha of compassionate
heart, you decry the slaughtering of poor animals
performed according to the rules of Vedic sacrifice.”]
(Vedic Paradigm, op. cit., p. 325. A quote from “Sri Dasavatara-stotra”, from Gita-Govinda by Jayadeva Goswami).


to me this refers to Shakyamuni Buddha , ...the Buddha of this age .

 

[ratikala]

Thanks and Hare Krishna.

jai jai , ..Hari Hari Bol

ok lets try , ....please note I am not answering on behalf ofthe entire of ISKCON, ....

1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?

Krsna is Visnu , ...Visnu is Krsna .....(this is on the supreme level of Maha Visnu , ..MahaVisnu and Krsna are synonomous ).MahaVisnu is Purusha avatara of Krsna .

again quoting Srila Prabhupada ....


"Although Visnu is equal to Krsna, Krsna is the original source. Visnu is a part, but Krsna is the whole. This is the version given by Vedic literatures. In Brahma-samhita the example is given of an original candle which lights a second candle. Although both candles are of equal power, one is accepted as the original, and the other is said to be kindled from the original. The Visnu expansion is like the second candle. He is as powerful as Krsna, but the original Visnu is Krsna."
Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 8
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.


2) Does ISKCON believe that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha?

to my understanding Vaikuntha is the supreme heavenly planet from which we do not fall down once we have attained it , ....although it could be said that because our constitutional position is to be in full knowledge of Krsna by sheer fact that we are currently experiencing seperation that we have fallen from our constitutional position therefore e have fallen from Vaikuntha , ...?

3) Does ISKCON believe that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the Kali Yuga incarnation (for example, one website stated that each yuga has an incarnation, and Mahaprabhu is the incarnation for this Yuga) or do they believe that Chaitanya was a "hidden" incarnation?

hidden !......Krsna is said to appear in three yugas ... Satya , Treta and Dvapara , but in Kali yuga because of the impurity of mankind He does not appear as himself he appears in hidden form as Sri Krsna Chaitanya , ...

4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?

I will happily say true . ......this ''correct'' ...is about refinement of veiw I would like to see where any one says other sampradayas are not true ???

5) Does ISKCON believe that there were two Buddhas and Gautama Siddhartha is not Vishnu's incarnation?

I will try to find some quotes for comparison on this later , ...but my veiw , ...and quote given above , ...is that it is Gautama Buddha

 

[Aupmanyav]

here for instance Srila prabhupada is quoting Jayadeva Goswami n the subject of the Buddha avatara
“ … we Vaisnava, we worship Lord Buddha".

"Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam,
sadaya-hridaya darsita-pasu-ghatam;
kesava dhrita-buddha-sarira, jaya jagadisa hare."

Just to put the verse correctly, Ratiben. Some ISCKONites may say that this Buddha was not Gautama, but Sri La Jayadeva was under no misconception.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Hare Krishna!

1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?

The Superior Position of Krishna is based on Brahma-Samhita
Bs 5.1
īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

 

[Madhuri]

Hey guys,
I've tried researching and haven't find any actual objective evidence for some of ISKCON's claims. What I mean is that one website says that Krishna, Vishnu, and Rama are all equal, while another website says that Krishna is superior to Vishnu. I would humbly request the ISKCONites here or anyone knowledgeable on the issue to tell me the ISKCON position on these topics:

1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?
2) Does ISKCON believe that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha?
3) Does ISKCON believe that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the Kali Yuga incarnation (for example, one website stated that each yuga has an incarnation, and Mahaprabhu is the incarnation for this Yuga) or do they believe that Chaitanya was a "hidden" incarnation?
4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?
5) Does ISKCON believe that there were two Buddhas and Gautama Siddhartha is not Vishnu's incarnation?

If need be, I can pull up the websites, but I don't think that will be necessary (and also quite time-consuming for me, since I don't take note of which websites I browse). These are the only questions I have right now, but if I have more, I will post them later on. Not asking for any proof if the claims are real, I just want to know ISKCON's positions on each claims. Also, quotes from any ISKCONite literature or from Prabhupada's lectures would help a lot.

Thanks and Hare Krishna.

1) Krishna is seen as being the original form of Godhead. Vishnu is Krishna, but not the original form.
2) The Jiva comes from the Marignal Potency of the Lord (Viraj river, I think it's called?). But they believe that one can fall down from Vaikuntha. This belief is specific to ISKCON, not the whole GV.
3) He is the Golden Avatar but other than that I don't remember what ISKCON believes. I think he isn't supposed to come just any Kali Yuga but I don't remember the specifics.
4) They definitely believe that they have more correct understanding and knowledge.
5) Yes. Prabhupada apparently said that Gautama Buddha was a devotee of the original 'Vishnu' Buddha. Gautama is not considered to be the God incarnation.

Everything I've stated above is based on what I was taught while growing up in ISKCON, not what I've interpreted in later life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Brahma-Samhita

"Mitsunori Matsubara in his Pañcarātra Saṁhitās and Early Vaisṇava Theology dates the text at ca 1300 AD. The text contains a highly esoteric description, with the Kāma-Gāyatṛi, of Kṛṣṇa in His abode Goloka." (Wikipedia - Brahma Samhita)
Hare-Krishna.

 

[Asha]

Hare Krishna Prabhu Ji

@axlyz


1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?

I agree completely with the above with @Acintya_Ash and @ratikala

Sri Krishna is the supreme from which all Avatara appear, this makes Vishnu Purusha-Avatara of Krishna.

2) Does ISKCON believe that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha?

See below quotes,

3) Does ISKCON believe that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the Kali Yuga incarnation (for example, one website
stated that each yuga has an incarnation, and Mahaprabhu is the incarnation for this Yuga) or do they believe that Chaitanya was a "hidden" incarnation?

Yes Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is Regarded as a Hidden Avatara. He comes in the guise of his own devotee.


4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?

Please what do you mean by true?

5) Does ISKCON believe that there were two Buddhas and Gautama Siddhartha is not Vishnu's incarnation?

Gautama Buddha is Lila avatara,


''24) Buddha - The son of Anjana


''He appeared in the province of Gaya in the beginning of Kali-yuga to delude those who are inimical to the faithful. He also appeared to stop animal slaughter in the name of Vedic sacrifices by preaching non-violence and by not accepting Vedic authorities. There is also another Buddha incarnation mentioned in another Kali-yuga when Lord appeared to bewilder the demons who were destroying the inhabitants of other planets by flying unseen in space ships made by the demon Maya.''

This is quoted from Bhagavatam 1.3.24.
''Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.

This to my knowledge Is Sidatha Gautama !


Stephen Knapp has hugely confused this issue writing copiously on the question of there being two Buddhas.

Please note there are some inconsistencies in his studies (too many to mention here)

quotes from any ISKCONite literature or from Prabhupada's lectures would help a lot.
Thanks and Hare Krishna.

exerts in Blue

2) The Jiva comes from the Marignal Potency of the Lord (Viraj river, I think it's called?). But they believe that one can fall down from Vaikuntha. This belief is specific to ISKCON, not the whole GV.

this fall down is a very complex subject, somewhere but I canot find it, Srila Prabhupada said it is not a fall down it is simply forgetfulness, he explained to devotees that it is Krishna's mercy to let us enjoy his maya. This means he did not create Maya just for the purpose of allowing us to fall down, if this was so why would he create it ? no he creates it to allow us to discover him, to re awake from our state of forgetfulness.


''In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu.
In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.


This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.


Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.


This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports''

from seperate conversation,

''Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada''
quotation from various talks Dandavats

3) He is the Golden Avatar but other than that I don't remember what ISKCON believes. I think he isn't supposed to come just any Kali-Yuga but I don't remember the specifics.

In each Yuga Krishna appears as himself but in Kaliyuga because the people are so degraded he must appear in hidden form. In Kali-Yuga Krishna appears as his own devotee, the Golden colour is the colour of Srimati Radhrani

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu comes in the mood of Srimati Radhrani as Krishna wants to taste Srimati radhranis love for him

these are many complex subjects, but hope this is a little helpful

Jai Shree Krishna,
Asha

 

[Chakra]

Hare Krishna Prabhu Ji

Hare Krishna

4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?

Please what do you mean by true?

There are many Hare Krishnas who believe that each philosophy (of each of the 4 sampradayas) is equally true and 100% Vedic and is capable of liberation, whereas some Vishsitadvaitins and Tattva-vadins believe that there are some beliefs in some sampradaya that are un-Vedic. In short, does one need to specifically be a GV to get Moksha or can one just be a normal devotee of Krishna from one of the 4 sampradayas or other sampradaya? What about Vaishnava Advaitins like Adi Shankara?

 

[Chakra]

Thanks for all the responses.
So to summarize, here is what I got. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1) Krishna is the origin of Vishnu and Vishnu is an avatara of Krishna, but both are equal in all respects.
2) The Jivas were in Vaikuntha, but gradually, we forgot our position and thus went to samsara. I'm still not clear on this one, so please correct me.
3) Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is a secret incarnation and only appears when he wants to, not according to any Vedic prophecy.
4) ISKCONites believe that Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is the most Vedic and most acceptable to Vyasa out of all the philosophies.
5) Gautama Siddhartha IS the real Buddha, avatar of Vishnu, but Madhuri-ji is saying that he is not. So I'm confused again.

Actually, I think it would be interesting to compare Sri Vaishnava and ISKCON positions to see the similarities and differences.

 

[Chakra]

namaskaram Axlyz ji

I dont think I can give you the entire ISKCON line as I am afraid I also find some inconsistencies in the inturpretations , .... especialy recently .
I would realy appreciate to see some of the sites you have brought up , ....and who is giving the inturpretation , ...
if it was recently can you check your browser history ?

Namaste Ratiben,

As per your request, I will accumulate all the websites I have used for research and post them here.

 

[Chakra]

Hey guys,
I've tried researching and haven't find any actual objective evidence for some of ISKCON's claims. What I mean is that one website says that Krishna, Vishnu, and Rama are all equal, while another website says that Krishna is superior to Vishnu. I would humbly request the ISKCONites here or anyone knowledgeable on the issue to tell me the ISKCON position on these topics:

1) Does ISKCON believe that Krishna is not the incarnation of Vishnu?
2) Does ISKCON believe that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha?
3) Does ISKCON believe that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the Kali Yuga incarnation (for example, one website stated that each yuga has an incarnation, and Mahaprabhu is the incarnation for this Yuga) or do they believe that Chaitanya was a "hidden" incarnation?
4) Does ISKCON believe that all 4 Vaishnava sampradaya are all true (for example, one website said that all 4 sampradayas are equal while one said Achintya is the most correct)?
5) Does ISKCON believe that there were two Buddhas and Gautama Siddhartha is not Vishnu's incarnation?

If need be, I can pull up the websites, but I don't think that will be necessary (and also quite time-consuming for me, since I don't take note of which websites I browse). These are the only questions I have right now, but if I have more, I will post them later on. Not asking for any proof if the claims are real, I just want to know ISKCON's positions on each claims. Also, quotes from any ISKCONite literature or from Prabhupada's lectures would help a lot.

Thanks and Hare Krishna.

OK, here are the links.

1) Who's First: Vishnu or Krishna? | Back to Godhead
In this website, it states that Krishna, Vishnu, Narasimha are all avataras, so I was confused because Krishna was the supreme in GV.

2) 1-Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down | Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Ashram
Website saying jiva DID NOT fall from Vaikuntha. Note the bold phrases.

3) This is actually just from my mind. I've read some random websites that say there is class of avataras called Yuga-Avatars. So I guessed Mahaprabhu was the Yuga Avatar from this age. But then some said that Krishna only comes in 3 yugas and takes a secret incarnation in Kali. So I just wanted clarification.
4) This is also from my mind. I know that ISKCONites hold great reverence for Vaishnava saint-philosophers like Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, Vedanta Desika, Jayatirtha etc, and also go to the extent of saying that they are 100% true and capable of liberation. There are some who say that while all of these are equal, Achintya is still the most Vedic. It's the same thing when ISKCONites say they come from Dvaita philosophy, but in reality, their philosophy and the Tattva-vada of Madhva are not the same. For example, here is a paper that shows the differences between both. (Caution: People may get offended reading this). Position Paper on ISKCON by the Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha
5) Stephen Knapp was the one who made me think that there are two Buddhas, but then reading several ISKCON websites (it's a while ago, so no browser history ) many glorify Gautama Buddha as THE Buddha.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Axlyz ji

Thanks for all the responses.
So to summarize, here is what I got. Please correct me if I am wrong.

first I doubt youll ever get a 100% agreement , ....

1) Krishna is the origin of Vishnu and Vishnu is an avatara of Krishna, but both are equal in all respects.....

....not quite Krsna is supreme and eternal , ...blissfull and in full consciousness , ...all aparances have their functions or purpose , ....

2) The Jivas were in Vaikuntha, but gradually, we forgot our position and thus went to samsara. I'm still not clear on this one, so please correct me.

....this is a realy difficult one to explain but .....we either forgot or became envious , ...wanting to be the enjoyer , ...but as Krsna is the supreme enjoyer , ...we canot be Krsna , ...however he through his mercy creates this realm for the purpose of allowing us to return naturaly , to realise our constitutional position .....

prehaps ...and this is not a taught veiw , ...just my analogy by way of a simplified explanation , ...when we are children we love to play with our parents to receive and return in a loving exchange , then as we grow we go through a stage of wishing to be independant to do everything for ourselves , ...we turn away from the parents but still they prepare and provide for our independance , ....we spend many years enjoying our sence of individual self then gradualy as we mature we come to the realisation that our parents have been extremely mercifull to us so we develop a stronger love for them and develop a sence of duty towards them , ...we realise our conection , our consitutional position in relation to them , eventualy we become their loving and devoted servitors , and as servitors we reknew that loving bond and exchange of love . .....this play of relationships is in the material realm , ..our relationship with Krsna is even stronger as it is eternal .....


3) Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is a secret incarnation and only appears when he wants to, not according to any Vedic prophecy.

not so much secret , ...Hidden ...Krsna says in the Gita ''where ever there is a decline in religious principles and a predominant rise in irriligion , I my self will return. ''


4) ISKCONites believe that Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is the most Vedic and most acceptable to Vyasa out of all the philosophies.

I personaly am not happy to say the ''most vedic'' and ''most acceptable'', ....I beleive all Vaisnava paths are unique , ..in their own sence they are lila ....individual relationships with the lord , I would not wish to put one above another .



5) Gautama Siddhartha IS the real Buddha, avatar of Vishnu, but Madhuri-ji is saying that he is not. So I'm confused again.

firstly one has to understand what is a Buddha , ...a Budddha an enlightened being , ...Gautama was Buddha of this age , ...

there are many self proclaimed teachers within ISKCON who do not agree with eachother fully , ....once I got handed a book writen by an ISKCON devotee who can remain nameless , ..(and not Stepen Knapp mentioned before) , ..unfortunatly it was a rather sad book full of assumptions and an un nececary need to denegrate Buddha to a level of un importance as if he constitutes a threat , ....I cryed when I read it , ..I cryed because some one thought it was a good book to give me because it proved the Supremacy of so called Krsna Consciousness ,?....and I cryed out of sadness for the person who wrote such an aprahda , ...and I cryed to think that any one was so envious of Buddha , ....I cryed because I found it sad that a so called Vaisnava could not glorify an enlightened being .
saddly it proved no more than the infancy in spiritual advancement of some , those that write such things , those who publish such things , those who buy and distribute such things and those that teach on the strength of reading such things , ....

fortunatly for me my Guru had already warned me that there was much missunderstanding on this subject , being a Bharatia born Vaisnava trained from childhood , I deem that his word is superior to a western devotee trying to prove the supremacy of his new found religion , ....sorry to be so blunt , ....but we must look carefully at who we beleive and at their motivation . ....sometimes people think that they are doing the right thing , ...but unfortunatly thet are not allways fully qualified to comment or to teach .

Actually, I think it would be interesting to compare Sri Vaishnava and ISKCON positions to see the similarities and differences.

Jai Jai , ....this I would wholeheartedly welcome

 

[Chakra]

Jai Jai , ....this I would wholeheartedly welcome

Yes, once I understand clearly the ISKCON POV then we can compare. Would be really interesting. Maybe @तत्त्वप्रह्व can come and add the Tattva-vadin views.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Yes, once I understand clearly the ISKCON POV then we can compare. Would be really interesting. Maybe @तत्त्वप्रह्व can come and add the Tattva-vadin views.

The position of Tattvavada on ISKCON can be found here -

Position Paper on ISKCON by the Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha

 

[Aupmanyav]

Earlier it was Shiva vs. Vishnu, now it is Vishnu vs. Krishna. I don't like any. It can only harm Hinduism. Let us get together.

 

[Shantanu]

There cannot be two or three Gods equal to each other or being an incarnate of one another. Sri Krishna is God. Vishnu is a deity in the Trimurti that is the guna-consciousness energy stream of God's creation. Gods of Guna Consciousness | Satya-advaita

 

[Stormcry]

According to Bhagavata & Vishnu Purana, Krishna is part of supreme lord Vishnu. That's why Krishna as a part of Vishnu is a standard belief in Hinduism and it's unquestionable.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

According to Bhagavata & Vishnu Purana, Krishna is part of supreme lord Vishnu. That's why Krishna as a part of Vishnu is a standard belief in Hinduism and it's unquestionable.

I have said this earlier. In general, the Vaishnava position is that Krishna is the eighth avatar of Vishnu as stated in all the Vaishnava Puranas.

This idea of Krishna being the source of Vishnu is peculiar to Eastern Indian (Bengal region) Vaishnavas - probably created by Jayadeva, a 12th Century Bengali poet.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Hare Krishna Asha-ji

In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.

I think you are saying the same thing "Jiva falls from Vaikuntha"..The difference being only in Semantic. Dreaming=Fall? If not What is fall?

Also it is said that the Misuse of Free Will lead to the Falldown of Jiva from Spiritual Platform. Now if all Jivas have similar svabhava then why do they end up making different choices and end up in varying degrees of karma?



thanks and regards
Ash