Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

[Dogknox20]

I debunked that myth of the purported excommunication of the Nazi leadership here: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?
I could cite real historians that refute your claim.

Hitler was baptized into the Catholic Church.

Have a look at how your church understands the Catholic baptism....
"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:9

cited from the Catholic Catechism.

I do not and did not reiterate any smear.


an "agenda" as I understand it has negative connotiations. So I don't have an agenda here - I simply replied to @Dogknox20 . That's all.

thomas t scriptures are clear... "The Great Commission" Go make disciples of all nations BAPYIZING!! Baptism makes disciples, all know Jesus is the brother of the Disciple (matt 12)!
If Jesus is your brother then Logic says God is your father! LOOK...
Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
thomas t 3000 were IMMERSED into the Body Of Jesus the first day of Pentecost! ... Here is the point I am getting to....next...
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Baptism IMMERSES us into the Body of Jesus BUT...
thomas t but communion with Jesus KEEPS us in the body of Jesus! Hitler did NOT REMAIN IN Jesus!
I have a very personal relationship with Jesus I consume his living flesh I drink his life giving blood! I am IN Jesus he is IN Me!

John 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

 

[thomas t]

False:
Hitler retained some regard for the church's organisational power but was contemptuous of its central teachings, which "would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure".[61] Aware that Bismarck's 1870s kulturkampf was defeated by the Centre Party, he believed that Nazism could only succeed if political Catholicism and its democratic networks were eliminated.[43][62][63] Conservative elements, such as the officer corps, opposed Nazi persecution of the churches.[61][64]

Although Hitler occasionally said that he wanted to delay the church struggle and was prepared to restrain his anti-clericalism, his inflammatory remarks to his inner circle encouraged them to continue their battle with the churches.[54] He said that science would destroy the last vestiges of superstition, and Nazism and religion could not co-exist in the long run. Germany could not tolerate foreign influences such as the Vatican, and priests were "black bugs" and "abortions in black cassocks".[65]

In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.

— Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock[page needed] --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#Hitler

What Hitler was doing was "playing" the Church, which to a degree worked.

BTW, as a follow-up to my last post:
Clergy, members of male and female religious orders and lay leaders began to be targeted. Thousands were arrested, often on trumped-up charges of currency smuggling or "immorality".[20] Priests were watched closely and denounced, arrested and sent to concentration camps.[136] In 1940, a clergy barracks was established at Dachau.[137] Clergy intimidation was widespread; Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber was shot at, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer had his Vienna residence ransacked in October 1938, and Bishop Joannes Baptista Sproll of Rottenburg was assaulted and his home vandalised. Propaganda satirizing the clergy included Anderl Kern's play, The Last Peasant.[138] Under Reinhard Heydrich and Heinrich Himmler, the Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst suppressed internal and external enemies of the state; among them were the "political churches" (such as Lutheranism and Catholicism) who opposed Hitler. Dissidents were arrested and sent to concentration camps.[139] In the 1936 campaign against monasteries and convents, the authorities charged 276 members of religious orders with "homosexuality";[140] trials of priests, monks, lay brothers and nuns for "immorality" peaked in 1935–36. Protests of the show trials were organised in the United States, including a June 1936 petition signed by 48 clergymen (including rabbis and Protestant pastors).[141] Winston Churchill wrote disapprovingly in the British press of Germany's treatment of "the Jews, Protestants and Catholics of Germany".[142]

Since senior clerics could rely on popular support, the government had to consider the possibility of nationwide protests.[143] Although hundreds of priests and members of monastic orders were sent to concentration camps during the Nazi era, only one bishop was briefly interned; another was expelled from his diocese.[144] In 1940, the Gestapo launched an intense persecution of the monasteries. Dominican Province of Teutonia provincial and German resistance spiritual leader Laurentius Siemer was influential in the Committee for Matters Relating to the Orders, which formed in response to Nazi attacks on Catholic monasteries to encourage the bishops to oppose the regime more effectively.[145][146] Clemens August Graf von Galen and Konrad von Preysing attempted to protect priests from arrest.[147][148][149] -- [same source as above]

nothing of this refutes my claim that he never left the church.
Nothing I wrote was false, Metis.
He stayed a memeber of your church right till the end of his earthly existence.
As my source explains, see #216.

edited for clarity

 

[metis]

Another post [same source]:

In January 1934, Hitler appointed the neo-pagan anti-Catholic Alfred Rosenberg as the Reich's cultural and educational leader.[60][73] That year, Rome's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome recommended that Rosenberg's book be placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum for scorning and rejecting "all dogmas of the Catholic Church, indeed the very fundamentals of the Christian religion".[166] Rosenberg outlined the future of religion envisioned by the Hitler government with a thirty-point program. According to the program, the German Evangelical Church would control all churches; publication of the Bible would cease, and crucifixes, Bibles and statues of saints on altars would be replaced by with Mein Kampf ("to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book"). The swastika would replace the cross on churches.[60]

 

[metis]

nothing of this refutes my claim that he never left the church.
As my source explains, see #216.

At the official level, no he didn't, but in reality he did. I left a religious organization several years ago, but there's no written record on my behalf that I did. Thus, de jure I still am a member but de facto I'm not, and I would suggest that the last one is far more important.

 

[thomas t]

At the official level, no he didn't, but in reality he did.

The official reality was he was a Catholic.
yeah.
The Catholic Church did nothing to adapt it to what you call "reality".
In other cases they do excommunicate.
In these other cases, they could easily say "oh in reality they just left" ... leaving the official reality untouched. However, whenever they excummunicate they change the official reality because they somehow feel the need to excommunicate.
Not so when it comes to Hitler... and this is why I call him member of the Catholic Church.
They could have excommunicated him like they did with others.

 

[exchemist]

I debunked that myth of the purported excommunication of the Nazi leadership here: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?
I could cite real historians that refute your claim.

Hitler was baptized into the Catholic Church.

Have a look at how your church understands the Catholic baptism....
"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:9

cited from the Catholic Catechism.

I do not and did not reiterate any smear.


an "agenda" as I understand it has negative connotiations. So I don't have an agenda here - I simply replied to @Dogknox20 . That's all.

Of course he was baptised into the Catholic church, as a baby. The Catholic church, like most mainstream Christian churches, practises infant baptism. Hitler had no say it whatever.

The excommunication of the Nazi leadership seems to be well attested. Can you cite these "real" historians that refute the 1931 excommunication and the evidence they rely on? I do not pretend to be a historian of this epoch.

However, your earlier quote from German newspapers seem irrelevant. They speak of a reluctance to excommunicate a head of state. But Hitler was not head of state in 1931 when the excommunication was given. It was done before. I can only imagine these articles are answering the question of why Hitler was not publicly re-excommunicated again, explicitly, by name, after he took power. And on that they may well be right. The Catholic Church is generally careful not to make personal enemies of heads of state, because its first concern is the freedom of the general populace to practise their faith. Grandstanding gestures on individuals can backfire nastily.

 

[Dogknox20]

Hitler placed himself within the Roman Catholic church and was never thrown out.
You call your church "body of Christ", that's your opinion. I disagree, but I won't discuss that with you again.

Hello once again....
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

You disagree? Judas did not remain in Jesus! He was an Apostle he rejected Jesus but did not leave as the others did!
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
thomas t Jesus lets them go! Jesus does not call them back! Jesus does NOT say: on't go I was just speaking metaphorically! Jesus lets them go IN FACT...
thomas t in fact Jesus turns to his Apostles and asks them if they will also go!? 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. They stay even Judas an UNBELIEVER!
Judas stays in his unbelief this is why Jesus calls Judas a devil!

Hitler like Judas did not remain IN Jesus.. Hitler was not a believer in the words of Jesus!
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Jesus died NEVER EVER to die a second time! No one can die twice! Jesus has been there and done that.. IF...
thomas t if you were IMMERSED into the risen Jesus you also would never die! Those IMMEWRSED in Jesus died with Jesus! The trick is to "Remain IN Jesus' Holy Catholic body!"
Hitler, Martin Luther, Arius, King Henry etc etc rejected Jesus' body!

 

[thomas t]

The excommunication of the Nazi leadership seems to be well attested. Can you cite these "real" historians that refute the 1931 excommunication and the evidence they rely on? I do not pretend to be a historian of this epoch.

yes, I mentioned it here Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian? citing the church historian Hubert Wolf (Münster) in the first article.
Also consider the other two sources that are indicated in linked post. Don't just sweep them aside.
No the first source is not irrelevant.

No, this was not about re-excommunication. This source is talking about the (potential but not actual) excommunication, and why it did not happen.
Hence Hitler was still a member by the time the source is about.

The excommunication of the Nazi leadership seems to be well attested.

no. It did not happen.
I could provide sources, you did nothing to support your stance.

 

[thomas t]

Hello once again....
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

You disagree? Judas did not remain in Jesus! He was an Apostle he rejected Jesus but did not leave as the others did!
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
thomas t Jesus lets them go! Jesus does not call them back! Jesus does NOT say: on't go I was just speaking metaphorically! Jesus lets them go IN FACT...
thomas t in fact Jesus turns to his Apostles and asks them if they will also go!? 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. They stay even Judas an UNBELIEVER!
Judas stays in his unbelief this is why Jesus calls Judas a devil!

Hitler like Judas did not remain IN Jesus.. Hitler was not a believer in the words of Jesus!
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Jesus died NEVER EVER to die a second time! No one can die twice! Jesus has been there and done that.. IF...
thomas t if you were IMMERSED into the risen Jesus you also would never die! Those IMMEWRSED in Jesus died with Jesus! The trick is to "Remain IN Jesus' Holy Catholic body!"
Hitler, Martin Luther, Arius, King Henry etc etc rejected Jesus' body!

All of this is what Roman Catholic Church officials could have said in cases of excommunicating other people.
They could have said the same excact words such as the ones I read in your post... instead of excommunicating other people.

Such as people who ordained the wrong priests.
Ordaining the wrong priests is what you get excommunicted for in your church.

Mass murder is not,
I see a slight bias there.

 

[exchemist]

yes, I mentioned it here Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian? citing the church historian Hubert Wolf (Münster) in the first article.
Also consider the other two sources that are indicated in linked post. Don't just sweep them aside.
No the first source is not irrelevant.

No, this was not about re-excommunication. This source is talking about the (potential but not actual) excommunication, and why it did not happen.
Hence Hitler was still a member by the time the source is about.


no. It did not happen.
I could provide sources, you did nothing to support your stance.

As far as I can see, none of those earlier references of yours say anything about the excommunication of Nazi leadership in 1931. They show no evidence that this did not take place, because they are talking about events after Hitler became head of state. The excommunication I am talking about was said to have occurred in 1931, 2 years earlier.

I have given you references that say this 1931 excommunication did take place. I have yet to see from you any evidence that they did not. Please cite these historians you say you can cite and give a link to their evidence that the excommunication of 1931 did not occur.

 

[exchemist]

ok metis, but can we judge if he was Catholic?
Some people said there are lapsed Catholics, you say there are non-congregant Catholics, if I get you right? But non-congregant Catholics are Catholics right?

Take my example for example: I was baptised into the Catholic Chruch,
but aged 22 I went to the local town hall and signed a document saying that I officially left Catholicism. I formally quit the membership in that church. So I'm no longer Catholic. No non-congregant Catholic, I'm just not Catholic.

Moreover, only members of the Catholic Church pay money to that church,
those who aren't members in that church don't pay them any money (except if they want to make a donation...).
So.... was Hitler a member of your church or wasn't he, Metis?

Thomas

Hitler was a Catholic the same way Stalin was Orthodox.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.
---------------------
While the Catholic Church does excommunicate people, for instance for what they call false teaching, they did not excommunicate Hitler and his servants.

As blameless as the Catholic church portrays itself to be, they did not find a reason to regret not having kicked him out. Until today. This is at least to the best of my knowledge.

The pope knew what was going on, that there was a holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/

edited for clarity

If he took baptism and the other sacraments, he is catholic. Unlike many other christian churches, baptism kinda solidifies your "membership." As far as his practice as a christian, I wouldn't say that's up for debate.

 

[Dogknox20]

All of this is what Roman Catholic Church officials could have said in cases of excommunicating other people.
They could have said the same excact words such as the ones I read in your post... instead of excommunicating other people.

Such as people who ordained the wrong priests.
Ordaining the wrong priests is what you get excommunicated for in your church.

Mass murder is not,
I see a slight bias there.

I reply... Innuendo?
Can't get excommunicated if not a priest; Arius was a Priest! Teachers in the Church Bishops Priests are excommunicated for teaching heresy!
thomas t I can teach heresy, all the wrong things but I have not been given authority to teach so I can't be excommunicated.
Ordinary people cannot be excommunicated!

Hitler was NOT a teacher, not a priest with authority to teach! Hitler could not be excommunicated!
Can the city fire a man claiming to be the mayor if he was not elected as mayor.. NO! Think use your noodle! Jesus established an authoritative church; With all of God' authority to teach all nations!
*
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

thomas t Do you see.. (above) “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me This means Jesus has the Authority of God!
Do you see.. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing This means the Church makes Disciples by baptizing all nations! (Disciples are children of God)
Do you see... in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ... This means the One Church Jesus is always with has the AUTHORITY to speak for God!

thomas t Speaking for someone is "Speaking in their name"! Speaking for someone: "Speaking in their name" means>>> You REPRESENT THEM! The Holy Church Jesus established has the Authority of God to make his children, to Speak for God! .... AND....

thomas t AND the and at the start of verse #20 (above) tells you the AUTHORITY of God given to the Holy Church by Jesus, in person also extends to TEACHING!
Go and TEACH all nations with the AUTHORITY of God; speaking in God' name TEACH all nations!
Example: The Holy Church guided by the Holy Spirit at council decided the Trinity to be true and to be TAUGHT to the world! Arius rejected this truth he was excommunicated his authority to teach was removed!
The Holy Catholic Church has the authority of God to teach, she teaches truth! Hitler cannot teach a lick he has NO authority to teach!

 

[ecco]

Hey! I understood some of this quote! Very little and still needed the translation you provided ...but I understood some of it so that makes me happy:


Onto the topic at hand... it took me a pagan and an athiest to start a petition to get the Harry Potter books back and Mein Kampf taken out.

If this was a high school or a college, Mein Kampf should not have been taken out.

 

[ecco]

I used to be a Catholic and that’s a no brainer. No he is not. To be a Christian is to embody all the virtues of Christ. Hitler was an embodiment of evil.

I have a real problem with anyone believing they have the right to define what does or does not make a Christian.

Hitler used the teachings of Christian Martin Luther to promote the hatred, denigration, and killing of Jews. Luther was the founder of the Christian Protestant movement. No one has the authority to say Luther was not a Christian.

There were thousands of Christians who owned slaves and justified that practice by quoting the Bible.

 

[VoidCat]

If this was a high school or a college, Mein Kampf should not have been taken out.

I do believe it could give valuable insight as to why hilter did the things he did...That and it's history...explains some of the mindset of his supporters too...in fact now I wouldntve had it banned. But back then? There was a classmate of mine that bragged about being a neonazi...It was his father who had got the Harry Potter series taken down...I hated the dude...and I was salty about the Harry Potter series being taken down... Now I am a bit more neutral as to whether it should be in schools or not. Part of me at times thinks it's despicable thing to read no one should read it other times I feel its important to read it.

@ecco youve inspired me to make a thread I will be tagging you.

 

[ecco]

The old alliance...

View attachment 50015

What "Anti-Catholic pseudo history" is being promoted by Secular Humanists?

Regarding Hitler, I have stated in many threads that he used the teachings of (Protestant) Christian leader Martin Luther to inflame Christian (Protestant and Catholic) Germans against the Jews. Hitler united Catholics and Protestants in accepting the "Final Solution".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.

I think that plotting to kill the pope means automatic excommunication.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have a real problem with anyone believing they have the right to define what does or does not make a Christian.

Hitler used the teachings of Christian Martin Luther to promote the hatred, denigration, and killing of Jews. Luther was the founder of the Christian Protestant movement. No one has the authority to say Luther was not a Christian.

There were thousands of Christians who owned slaves and justified that practice by quoting the Bible.

A Christian is a follower of Christ. To believe and obey. Every person is responsible for his own actions. The Bible itself commands us to love our enemies. No need for further explanation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hello loverofhumanity so now you are a in Baha'i Faith?! I must assume you did not understand your Catholic faith to be swayed as you were!
I have a very personal relationship with Jesus/God! I consume his living flesh, I drink Jesus' life giving blood! Can't get anymore personal then that! I am in him he is in me!

The priests taught me so well the love of Jesus that I would know the voice of my Master anywhere so when the Promised One appeared, I bowed down humbly before Him, the Father i had been waiting for all my life. I am the happiest and most blest person in the world to have recognised Christ’s return in the glory of the Father, Baha’u’llah, while billions of professed believers have remained bereft of this eternal bliss.