74x12
Well-Known Member
He's a fake Christian like so many others. Proves God doesn't care what people make themselves out to be but looks on the heart.
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Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Real history says Hitler was researching for the power of God. Thought maybe the Jewish DNA had some answers.
Was the church involved a question.
Why did America employ the German scientists. Another status.
Who is wrong.
Who is the biggest liar.
Who is most corrupt the banter in men of a science life.
Who is greedy enough to ignore humanity itself?
A particular human destroyer mentality the answer owned by a lot of men everywhere the warning.
Personality as a trait in particular males.
In all organisations are caring spiritual men. In all organisations are the corrupt.
It is up to humanity as a union family to prevent the corruption their selves.
You are taught history. Are meant to use lessons to correct poor life choices. And mean it for humanity and not for organisation status.
Was the church involved a question.
Why did America employ the German scientists. Another status.
Who is wrong.
Who is the biggest liar.
Who is most corrupt the banter in men of a science life.
Who is greedy enough to ignore humanity itself?
A particular human destroyer mentality the answer owned by a lot of men everywhere the warning.
Personality as a trait in particular males.
In all organisations are caring spiritual men. In all organisations are the corrupt.
It is up to humanity as a union family to prevent the corruption their selves.
You are taught history. Are meant to use lessons to correct poor life choices. And mean it for humanity and not for organisation status.
that's a myth.
This is the Wikipedia article listing all the people excommunicated by the CC:
List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church - Wikipedia
we find:
- Napoleon was excommunicated June 10, 1809 by Pope Pius VII for ordering the annexation of Rome and a long period of anti-Papal orders.[63][64] Before Napoleon's death, his excommunication was lifted and he received the last rites.[65]All Catholics who participated in the creation of a Philippine Independent Church in the Philippines, in 1902[78]
- All Catholics who participated in the creation of a Philippine Independent Church in the Philippines, in 1902[78]
- Juan Perón, in 1955, after he signed a decree ordering the expulsion of Argentine bishops Manuel Tato and Ramón Novoa[84][85] In 1963 Perón was reconciled with the Church and his excommunication lifted.[86][87]
Perón for instance, wasn't a priest.
So again: all you wrote in your post is what people could have have said in the case of Perón, too.
Yet he was excommunicated.
Hitler wasn't.
yes. Because it did not happen. It only exists in your mind.
My references I gave were to show that Hitler was still a member of your church.
That's all.
your referenced your point that Hitler was purportedly excommunicated by providing was a Wiki source. You wrote:
You're citing Wiki, however the book that they got this information from is not online. I'm not going to buy it, here. Wiki simply could have misunderstood the book they are citing.
Since you cited Wiki, I also cite Wiki then. List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church - Wikipedia:
20th century
- All Catholics who participated in the creation of a Philippine Independent Church in the Philippines, in 1902[78]
- Feliksa Kozłowska, Maria Michał Kowalski and the Mariavite movement in December 1906 by St Pius X[79]
- Alfred Loisy, a French cleric associated with modernism (1908?).[80]
- Father Romolo Murri, a leader of the Italian Catholic Democrats, for giving speeches against Papal policy (1909)[81]
- Marshal Josip Broz Tito (1946) and all Catholics who participated in the trial of Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb and the trial of Archbishop József Mindszenty of Hungary, which included most of the jury members.[82]
- Fr Michel Collin of France was excommunicated in 1951 for various heresies, and later declared himself Pope Clement XV.[83]
- Juan Perón, in 1955, after he signed a decree ordering the expulsion of Argentine bishops Manuel Tato and Ramón Novoa[84][85] In 1963 Perón was reconciled with the Church and his excommunication lifted.[86][87]
- Plaquemines Parish President Leander Perez, Jackson G. Ricau (secretary of the Citizens Council of South Louisiana) and Mrs. B.J. Gaillot, Jr., president of Save Our Nation, Inc., on April 16, 1962 by Archbishop Joseph Rummel of the Archdiocese of New Orleans. They were excommunicated for aggressively opposing the racial integration of Catholic schools in the Archdiocese starting in the 1963-64 school year. Perez and Ricau were later reinstated into the Church following public retractions.[88]
- Fidel Castro is reported to have been excommunicated latae sententiae in 1962 for affiliating with the Communist Party of Cuba, preaching communism and supporting a communist government; the basis of the excommunication is supposed to have been the 1949 Decree against Communism of Pope Pius XII. Pope John XXIII is quoted as having no recollection of the sentence.[89] Other sources deny that there was any such personal excommunication of the Cuban leader.[90][91]
- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Bishops Antonio de Castro Meyer, Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta for the Ecône Consecrations (Society of St. Pius X) without papal mandate. Formally declared to have incurred latae sententiae excommunication by Cardinal Bernardin Gantin on July 1, 1988.[92][93] The excommunications of the latter four (the bishops consecrated in that 1988 ceremony) were lifted in 2009; the first two (the consecrator and the co-consecrator) had died in the meantime.[citation needed] Williamson fell under a second excommunication after illicitly ordaining a bishop.[94]
- Members of multiple organizations in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska were excommunicated by Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz in March 1996 for promoting positions he deemed "totally incompatible with the Catholic faith".[95] The organizations include Call to Action, Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, the Freemasons, and the Society of St. Pius X. The Vatican later confirmed the excommunication of Call to Action members in November 2006,[95] but in 2017, the current bishop of Lincoln met with leadership of the group and proposed a way for individuals to be reconciled to the Church, without having to renounce their membership in the organization, as long as they reaffirmed their commitment to all of Church teaching.[96]
- After Bishop Michael Cox consecrated Pat Buckley a bishop without papal approval, both were excommunicated.[97]
No Hitler.
It's Wiki against Wiki. Sometimes Wiki is simply flawed.
If you want a better quality of sources, go ahead and quote and cite a decent source yourself please.
You come up with the claim that Hitler was excommunicated, the onus is on you.
You cited Wiki to back up your claim.
Above I cited Wiki to show that your claim is wrong.
However, I also cited an official church source citing a church historian.
Here is another:
Were Any Catholic Nazis Excommunicated? | Franciscan Media
which is an official document from the Catholic church.
It reads like this:
Although individual Catholics who were Nazis were not excommunicated, [...].
see last post, #230, please. Or see above for the link to the franciscan page.
edited to link to that Franciscan site.
Last edited:
no sourcing that you could provide for that claim.
No sourcing that Hitler plotted to kill the pope.
Even if you were to be right with your insinuation that Hitler plotted to do that.... this excommunication would have happened pretty late, I'm afraid.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is an entire wiki page devoted to the evidence of a plot by Hitler to kill the Pope. Several authors have written books on this topic, documenting the plot.
so lets assume this is accurate.
Still, Hitler isn't included in the list of excommunicated people. See (also Wiki) List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church - Wikipedia
so I don't see this automatic excommunication you were talking of... in place.
Augustus
…
Visit any internet discussion by "Rationalists" and you'll find the whole gamut.
The Conflict Thesis, "Christian Dark Ages", "destruction of pagan learning", "Christmas/Easter is Pagan", Great Library of Alexandria, forms of the Black Legend, etc.
Basically anything about pre-modern historical Christianity commonly discussed by "New Atheist" types.
Catholics: famously impressed by people referencing the theology of Martin Luther
While Christianity did help create an undercurrent of anti-semitism in Germany, it was not the source of the Scientific Racialist anti-semitism promoted by the Nazis.
Luther was a theological anti-semite, Hitler was a racialist anti-semite. His anti-semitism was minimally, if at all, influenced by Luther.
Nazis did use Luther's words to help justify their racial anti-semitism, but there were many other things (at least most of which were far more important): Racialist "Science", anti-Marxism, WW1 'stab in the back', avaricious exploiters of 'real' Germans, etc.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Because such a list wouldn't include people who are automatically excommunicated. For example, any woman who has ever had an abortion and not gone to confession about it is automatically excommunicated, but you will see none of them in that list.
Look. As I said, several authors have written on this, giving the evidence. You don't agree with them, fine. But it's not like I made this stuff up.
Perhaps you did not make anything up.
However, what you say here is poorly backed up by sources.
A Wiki source was given, hovever, official Catholic Church sources wirte about Hitlers "excommunication" like this:
Although individual Catholics who were Nazis were not excommunicated, [...].
Were Any Catholic Nazis Excommunicated? | Franciscan Media
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The real "reality" is that he was not.
You obviously can call him whatever you want even though it makes one iota of logical sense, which is why in cases like this, de facto takes priority over de jure.
You have made it abundantly clear over numerous posts on numerous threads that you have an anti-Catholic bigotry. If you don't like the Church, that's all fine & dandy, but at least get the reality right and maybe consider discarding your dung-colored glasses, as followers of Jesus should base their conduct on love, not bigotry. If you new church doesn't teach that, maybe look for a different one.
With this post, I'm now done.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And I think that's a very important point, and I believe this well applies to Hitler in that he was baptized within the Catholic Church, was even an altar boy, but if my recollection is correct he never joined a local church in his adulthood. I read a biography on him decades ago, so my memory is quite shaky, I must admit.
ADDED: I just looked this up:
Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother, and was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, his father was a free-thinker and skeptical of the Catholic Church.[5] In 1904, he was confirmed at the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Linz, Austria, where the family lived.[6] According to John Willard Toland, witnesses indicate that Hitler's confirmation sponsor had to "drag the words out of him ... almost as though the whole confirmation was repugnant to him".[7] Rissmann notes that, according to several witnesses who lived with Hitler in a men's home in Vienna, he never again attended Mass or received the sacraments after leaving home at 18 years old.[8] --
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
this is getting personal, please stop this.
I have reality right, I think, and I provided links and sources to back my view up. I stand by it.
Please don't give me any unsollicited advice, thank you.
ecco
Veteran Member
If Christians were just followers of Christ, they would have thrown out the OT as Marcion had wanted. Christians did not throw out the OTY. Therefore, Christians may also use the teachings of the OT in deciding their actions.
The Bible itself commands us on how to treat our slaves.
Apparently not all Bahai's love their enemies. So, further explanation is needed.
Less similar has been the response of the objects of their reform: Bahá'í authorities have reacted defensively, with further purges, and attacks on the credibility of their critics; while Subud institutions have apparently done nothing, either to punish critics or to address their concerns.
ecco
Veteran Member
You've been a member for a while. You know that when a person makes an assertion, it is their burden to provide evidence to support that allegation. It is not my responsibility to try to prove the validity of your opinions.
So, either provide the evidence requested or admit your comment was nothing more than your baseless opinion.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Yes he was Catholic for political expediency.
Augustus
…
You could have extended yourself to quoting the *whole* post rather than missing out the key part.
Are you actually of the opinion that the following pseudo-historical myths are not commonly spouted in "rationalist" discussions?
Yes/no?
ecco
Veteran Member
Catholics: famously impressed by people referencing the theology of Martin Luther
Why the dumb smily face? Do you think I meant Hitler, when orating to German Protestants and Catholics, said...
My fellow Catholics, the wonderful leader of your Protestant brothers and sisters, Martin Luther, said: Set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn.
I said...
Regarding Hitler, I have stated in many threads that he used the teachings of (Protestant) Christian leader Martin Luther to inflame Christian (Protestant and Catholic) Germans against the Jews.
Teachings such as...
Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"
I shall give you my sincere advice:
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed...
Third
Fourth
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping...
Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed...
Third
Fourth
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping...
Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow
ecco
Veteran Member
I saw what you posted.
The Conflict Thesis, "Christian Dark Ages", "destruction of pagan learning", "Christmas/Easter is Pagan", Great Library of Alexandria, forms of the Black Legend, etc.
Do you expect me to read all that? If you can't even take the time to excerpt some pertinent segments to make your case, why do you think I should.
So far, all we have is your unsubstantiated opinion. Still!
Augustus
…
Do I expect you to read 25 words that answer your question assuming you have a basic understanding of the topic you are discussing?
Or are you saying you did read the 25 words and don't understand why they answer your question as you are confused by the terminology?
You have never seen "Rationalists" discussing the "Christian Dark Ages" for example?