Sand Dancer
Currently catless
I thought you only went to hell, if you didn't become a Christian.
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Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?
I thought you only went to hell, if you didn't become a Christian.
Cooky
Veteran Member
I heard Hitler idolized Mohammed. Who actually was a fighter. Jesus is the antithesis of a fighter.
Cooky
Veteran Member
No, Christians / Catholics go to hell too, according to Catholicism. Depending on how they live.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
He was supposedly heavily funded by the church.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
When I was Christian, that is what I was taught. Of course, maybe they didn't go into detail on Sundays.
Cooky
Veteran Member
I don't know what Christianity in general teaches. I only know what Catholicism teaches.
That sounds like nonsense but I'm open to seeing proof.
He certainly used religion for political purposes, but I'm not sure where you're getting "purely" from.
He publicly professed his Christianity, and his actions were consistent with the assumption that this profession was sincere. He infused Nazi ideology with many of the ideas from the religious writings of Martin Luther. He was successful at convincing Christians around him that he was Christian.
Can we come up with some alternative assumption that's consistent with the facts where Hitler's Christianity is insincere? Sure, probably.
... but unless you have some sort of time travelling clairvoyance to see into Hitler's mind, neither of us can say for sure whether he really considered himself a Christian.
So all we have to go on is:
- he professed that he was a Christian.
- his actions were consistent with the assumption that he was sincere about this.
ecco
Veteran Member
I was addressing your assertion that you highly doubted that a 14 year old rape victim can be kicked out for having an abortion.
We were not discussing what happens afterward.
He wasn't a Christian at all, according to actual belief, at least towards the end. He despised Christianity and insulted it multiple times.
ecco
Veteran Member
Should we just blindly accept your assertion or are you going to provide some actual verified quotes from the pope?
ecco
Veteran Member
American war propaganda was largely responsible for the Nazis being painted as atheists.
The US Government needed men to fight in Europe. Before Pearl Harbor there was little interest in going to war in Europe. Even after, there was not great enthusiasm.
Many young American men were of German and Italian heritage. How do you get these men to go to Europe and kill their not too distant relatives? You convince them that those distant relatives had all become EVIL ATHEISTS.
I remember a story that took place during a brief Christmas cease-fire. The front lines were not far apart. In the quiet of the night, the American soldiers were astounded to hear the German soldiers singing Christmas carols.
The US Government needed men to fight in Europe. Before Pearl Harbor there was little interest in going to war in Europe. Even after, there was not great enthusiasm.
Many young American men were of German and Italian heritage. How do you get these men to go to Europe and kill their not too distant relatives? You convince them that those distant relatives had all become EVIL ATHEISTS.
I remember a story that took place during a brief Christmas cease-fire. The front lines were not far apart. In the quiet of the night, the American soldiers were astounded to hear the German soldiers singing Christmas carols.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Just as the young girl and her mother were not ultimately excommunicated nor were people of Hitler's regime. It was not a permanent ban that held up under scrutiny. Don't British have the same idiom?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The only source that makes that claim is highly disputed. It comes from "Hitler's Table Talks". So one cannot say definitively either way.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Apparently, Hitler was a little confused, among other things.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
I read it in a book somewhere. Doesn't mean it's true. That's why I said "supposedly."
Seems to me that the Catholic Church has not excommunicated literally billions of people, many of whom no longer even think of themselves as Christian -- let alone Catholic.
But the thread title asks, "is Hitler a Christian." (I'll assume that really should be "was" but let that go.)
There is, at the end of the day, no point at all in arguing such questions, because far too many people will have far too many opinions on what the definitions mean. The "no true Scotsman" fallacy plays on this, in that it simply allows the arguer to decide for himself what it means to be a "true Scotsman." If one accepts the usual definition of "born and remaining a citizen of Scotland," then no argument can ever be made that some behaviour or other disqualifies someone.
Thus, if at the time of Hitler's death, he was still "enrolled" in the Catholic Church (by virtue of having been born into it, never denying it, and never being denied by it), he remained a Catholic -- and therefore a Christian -- until he died. No matter what he did.
But the thread title asks, "is Hitler a Christian." (I'll assume that really should be "was" but let that go.)
There is, at the end of the day, no point at all in arguing such questions, because far too many people will have far too many opinions on what the definitions mean. The "no true Scotsman" fallacy plays on this, in that it simply allows the arguer to decide for himself what it means to be a "true Scotsman." If one accepts the usual definition of "born and remaining a citizen of Scotland," then no argument can ever be made that some behaviour or other disqualifies someone.
Thus, if at the time of Hitler's death, he was still "enrolled" in the Catholic Church (by virtue of having been born into it, never denying it, and never being denied by it), he remained a Catholic -- and therefore a Christian -- until he died. No matter what he did.
Was President George W. Bush a Christian? Certainly not. Christians turn the other cheek and don't murder, and don't brag that they are "fighin' the Axis of Evil." So, though someone may espouse Christianity, they are not Christian unless they do the things that Christ would have done.
Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
According to the Wikipedia link above: "Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother and an anticlerical father; after leaving home Hitler never again attended Mass or received the sacraments. Speer states that Hitler railed against the church to his political associates and though he never officially left it, he had no attachment to it."
Actually, Hitler didn't have a beef with the Catholic church until that church disapproved of what he was doing.
Unsealing of Vatican archives will finally reveal truth about ‘Hitler’s pope’
According to the Guardian article, above, "Pius XII never publicly criticized the Nazis for the mass murder they were committing of the Jews of Europe – and he knew from the very beginning that mass murder was taking place. Various clerics and others were pressing him to speak out, and he declined to do so.". . . "“Although there is a lot of testimony showing that the church did protect Jews in Rome, when more than 1,000 were rounded up on 16 October 1943 and held for two days adjacent to the Vatican [before deportation to the death camps], Pius decided not to publicly protest or even privately send a plea to Hitler not to send them to their deaths in Auschwitz."....."the new pontiff declined to condemn the Nazi invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/
[pope] "never directly criticized the Nazi slaughter of Jews, knew from his own sources about Berlin’s death campaign early on. But he kept this from the U.S. government after an aide argued that Jews and Ukrainians — his main sources — could not be trusted because they lied and exaggerated." [or so the pope said]
Was Adolf Hitler religious?
According to the website above: "Not only was Hitler raised an Austrian Catholic, but he often declared his belief in God and even called himself a Christian. His persecution of the Jews, they say, was simply an extreme continuation of Christian anti-Semitism, of hating “the Jews” for killing Jesus." (though this view is debated).
Hitler had railed against homosexuals. Yet, he was an artist, and many of Hitler's paintings were hidden from public scrutiny. Some of Hitler's art depicted two naked men sexually pleasing each other. While the stereotypical artist is Gay, it appears that Hitler really was Gay. Perhaps his predilection for blond and blue eyed men (though Hitler was not blond nor blue eyed), may have been about being Gay.
The Catholic church would not have approved of Hitler's Gayness.
Project MUSE - <i>Hitler's Religion. The Twisted Beliefs That Drove the Third Reich</i> by Richard Weikart (review)
According to Steigmann-Gall (link above), Hitler was "a sincere Christian, at least until 1937" (though this view is debated).
Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
According to the Wikipedia link above: "Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother and an anticlerical father; after leaving home Hitler never again attended Mass or received the sacraments. Speer states that Hitler railed against the church to his political associates and though he never officially left it, he had no attachment to it."
Actually, Hitler didn't have a beef with the Catholic church until that church disapproved of what he was doing.
Unsealing of Vatican archives will finally reveal truth about ‘Hitler’s pope’
According to the Guardian article, above, "Pius XII never publicly criticized the Nazis for the mass murder they were committing of the Jews of Europe – and he knew from the very beginning that mass murder was taking place. Various clerics and others were pressing him to speak out, and he declined to do so.". . . "“Although there is a lot of testimony showing that the church did protect Jews in Rome, when more than 1,000 were rounded up on 16 October 1943 and held for two days adjacent to the Vatican [before deportation to the death camps], Pius decided not to publicly protest or even privately send a plea to Hitler not to send them to their deaths in Auschwitz."....."the new pontiff declined to condemn the Nazi invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/
[pope] "never directly criticized the Nazi slaughter of Jews, knew from his own sources about Berlin’s death campaign early on. But he kept this from the U.S. government after an aide argued that Jews and Ukrainians — his main sources — could not be trusted because they lied and exaggerated." [or so the pope said]
Was Adolf Hitler religious?
According to the website above: "Not only was Hitler raised an Austrian Catholic, but he often declared his belief in God and even called himself a Christian. His persecution of the Jews, they say, was simply an extreme continuation of Christian anti-Semitism, of hating “the Jews” for killing Jesus." (though this view is debated).
Hitler had railed against homosexuals. Yet, he was an artist, and many of Hitler's paintings were hidden from public scrutiny. Some of Hitler's art depicted two naked men sexually pleasing each other. While the stereotypical artist is Gay, it appears that Hitler really was Gay. Perhaps his predilection for blond and blue eyed men (though Hitler was not blond nor blue eyed), may have been about being Gay.
The Catholic church would not have approved of Hitler's Gayness.
Project MUSE - <i>Hitler's Religion. The Twisted Beliefs That Drove the Third Reich</i> by Richard Weikart (review)
According to Steigmann-Gall (link above), Hitler was "a sincere Christian, at least until 1937" (though this view is debated).
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There are many different types of Christians. You cannot claim that George Bush was not a Christian, or that Adolf Hitler was not a Christian. All you can claim is that he is not "your kind of Christian". Christianity is a pretty big tent. If we went according to everyone's "He is not a Christian because of . . ." there would be no Christians left in the world.
Does anyone righteous go to hell ____________
I find the day righteous Jesus died he went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
In Scripture, biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
This is why both Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach ' sleep ' in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Resurrection Day is Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Then, everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' according to Revelation 20:13-14.
'Delivered up' meaning resurrected out of biblical hell the grave.
Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell/grave
exchemist
Veteran Member
But was the original excommunication of the Nazi leadership rescinded? The way I read it, the blanket excommunication of anyone who was a member of the party was lifted, because the Nazis started to insist that anyone in public sector work had to be a member. So many innocent workers were forced to join to retain their jobs. In that situation it would have been grotesque for the church to excommunicate all these people for no fault of their own.