Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

[Subduction Zone]

But it's there is black and white. The leadership was excommunicated in 1931.

I still do not understand what you mean by it not "taking". Excommunication is not a graft or something. It means the excommunicated person is refused the sacraments of the church. What you could mean,I suppose, is that excommunication was irrelevant to the Nazi leaders since they did not go to church anyway. But there is nothing about this that "takes" or does not "take", so far as I can see.

What sources are these that say Hitler was never excommunicated? . If I google "Hitler excommunication" I get a list of hits all saying he was excommunicated, but as he had never attended church since his teens it meant nothing in practice - or some such words.

With excommunication if one's superiors do not acknowledge it and act as if it never happened that would be an example of it "not taking".

 

[exchemist]

With excommunication if one's superiors do not acknowledge it and act as if it never happened that would be an example of it "not taking".

That's not right. If the German bishops excommunicate someone, the priests in their dioceses will be instructed not to give the sacraments to the excommunicated person. What the bishop's superior thinks doesn't come into it, unless the bishop is instructed by that superior to rescind the excommunication. Do you have sources that say this happened in the case of Hitler?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not right. If the German bishops excommunicate someone, the priests in their dioceses will be instructed not to give the sacraments to the excommunicated person. What the bishop's superior thinks doesn't come into it, unless the bishop is instructed by that superior to rescind the excommunication. Do you have sources that say this happened in the case of Hitler?

No, I don't. I do have the example of when people were actually excommunicated it was done with specific names. This "excommunication" seems to be over reaching and as I said, it does not appear to have had any effect. Of course the excommunication issue does not really apply in any case. Even when excommunicated a person is still considered to be a Christian by the Catholic church.

 

[exchemist]

No, I don't. I do have the example of when people were actually excommunicated it was done with specific names. This "excommunication" seems to be over reaching and as I said, it does not appear to have had any effect. Of course the excommunication issue does not really apply in any case. Even when excommunicated a person is still considered to be a Christian by the Catholic church.

Yes, it is not up to the church to pronounce on whether or not a person is a Christian.

If as you say, the excommunication had no effect, do you mean there is evidence that priests continued to give the sacraments to Nazi leaders after 1931 in defiance of the excommunication? I would find that surprising and I would like you to provide evidence if that is your contention. Or do you just mean it had no effect since none of these people ever went to church in the first place? That seems to me to be highly likely - but obviously that is something completely outside the church's control.

By the way, a bit more on this from Quora: Why didn't the Catholic Church excommunicate Hitler? - Quora. Seems the excommunication was actually appealed to Rome and the appeal was denied, according to one Professor of religious studies. Interesting - I had no idea about any of this.

But the whole thing is a bit academic since at least in Hitler's case he had left the church anyway, so he wasn't going to be wanting to take any sacraments. He had by that time excommunicated himself, in other words. So all this is a storm in a teacup, really.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, it is not up to the church to pronounce on whether or not a person is a Christian.

If as you say, the excommunication had no effect, do you mean there is evidence that priests continued to give the sacraments to Nazi leaders after 1931 in defiance of the excommunication? I would find that surprising and I would like you to provide evidence if that is your contention. Or do you just mean it had no effect since none of these people ever went to church in the first place? That seems to me to be highly likely - but obviously that is something completely outside the church's control.

By the way, a bit more on this from Quora: Why didn't the Catholic Church excommunicate Hitler? - Quora. Seems the excommunication was actually appealed to Rome and the appeal was denied, according to one Professor of religious studies. Interesting - I had no idea about any of this.

But the whole thing is a bit academic since at least in Hitler's case he had left the church anyway, so he wasn't going to be wanting to take any sacraments. He had by that time excommunicated himself, in other words. So all this is a storm in a teacup, really.

Sorry, but we are at a bit of an impasse here. I could just as well say if it stuck that there would be evidence of people being refused the sacraments. There does not appear to be evidence either way.. But I will have to read up on the additional info that you posted. I thank you for that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Can't link to that page -- do you have a comment to make on what I wrote?

I found I too could No longer link to that page.
Basically it shows picture after picture of Hitler with clergy backing, that was posted to see if that went along with what your wrote or not.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I found I too could No longer link to that page.
Basically it shows picture after picture of Hitler with clergy backing, that was posted to see if that went along with what your wrote or not.

Yes, it goes along with what I wrote.

But of course, it's always a mistake to suppose that the church doesn't also engage in political considerations -- they do, because like it or not, they are part of this world, not the next (yet).

 

[Glaurung]

This is such an unnecessary argument it's painful.

In the eyes of the Catholic Church one is irrevocably Christian by virtue of a valid baptism. Hitler was baptized - we assume validly - therefore Hitler was a Christian in the eyes of the Church. Even if a very bad one.

Whether Hitler personally considered himself a Christian is doubtful as it has been known for a long time that he held viciously anti-religious views. As hard as it may be for some to grasp, politicians aren't always sincere in their public proclamations of religious belief. Of course he claimed to be religious! Telling people in 1930's Germany that you plan on eventually stamping out Christianity from the country would have been politically suicidal. Especially considering the communist political competition, which was explicitly atheist.

And even if Hitler - in some bizarre way - considered himself a Catholic, there's nothing in Catholic teaching that could remotely justify the systematic murder of a people group. Yes, Catholics have been cruel to Jews, but the death camps were a product of a deranged ideology of racial superiority, not Christianity.

If you want to know where the Nazi fixations came from, they came from a combination of racial 'science', extreme nationalism and occultist mysticism. From what I understand, Hitler's personal hatred for the Jews (in large part) stems from his belief that they were at fault for Germany's defeat in WWI. Combine that resentment with his extreme ethnonationalism and you have a pretty good explanation for his anti-semantic and warmongering fixations.

 

[thomas t]

The leadership was excommunicated in 1931.

it did not happen, Wiki is wrong.

If I google "Hitler excommunication" I get a list of hits all saying he was excommunicated, but as he had never attended church since his teens it meant nothing in practice - or some such words.

Your list spreads a myth, the ones saying he was excommunicated cannot prove their claims.
Instead we find:
Warum wurde Hitler nicht exkommuniziert? | KirchenZeitung
it's a Catholic German newspaper that discusses why Hitler was not excommunicated. The title says "Why wasn't Hitler excommunicated".
The article goes on:
Der Münsteraner Kirchenhistoriker Hubert Wolf vermutet hier den Hauptgrund für die zurückhaltende Behandlung Hitlers. In einem Interview mit der „Welt“ sagte er: „Vermutlich stand im Hintergrund der Zweifel, ob man ein legales Staatsoberhaupt einfach so exkommunizieren kann, wo es doch im Römerbrief heißt: Alle staatliche Obrigkeit kommt von Gott, wer sich gegen die staatliche Obrigkeit auflehnt, lehnt sich gegen Gott auf.“

My translation into English:
"The Münster-based church historian Hubert Wolf suggest that the main reason for hesitating [to excommunicate] Hitler was [the fact that he was elected head of state]. In an interview to "Welt" [an established German daily newspaper] he said: "Presumably [the vatican] had doubts, if you can excommunicate a legal head of state just like that. For in Romans it says: all authority comes from God, who revolts against public authority, revolts against God. "

see also Pope Reported Set to Excommunicate Hitler - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

see also (German) Adof Hitler - Ehrenbürger und Katholik - derStandard.at

Your sources that suggest otherwise are not decent.
Hitler never left the Catholic Church as you suggest. He stayed a Catholic.

 

[exchemist]

Sorry, but we are at a bit of an impasse here. I could just as well say if it stuck that there would be evidence of people being refused the sacraments. There does not appear to be evidence either way.. But I will have to read up on the additional info that you posted. I thank you for that.

Well they can't be refused the sacraments if they don't show up for mass, obviously.

The fact is they were excommunicated and you have produced no evidence to show this was ever countermanded. On the contrary, there is evidence (which I have provided) showing the excommunication was appealed, to Rome, and that the appeal was refused.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well they can't be refused the sacraments if they don't show up for mass, obviously.

The fact is they were excommunicated and you have produced no evidence to show this was ever countermanded. On the contrary, there is evidence (which I have provided) showing the excommunication was appealed, to Rome, and that the appeal was refused.

There doesn't appear to be any evidence either way. They were excommunicated on paper. Were they excommunicated by actions? I don't know and you don't appear to know either. And how did the church's later softening on this ruling affect the leaders? At what level did the supposed excommunication go into effect? If a clear line cannot be drawn that does support my claim of not taking.

 

[viole]

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Baha'is, Sikhs, Theists and Deists believe in a creator. Hitler could have been a Deist according to this quote; no need to impart religion where there is none, but you only imply it there yourself.

Usually, deist gods do not assign missions to people.

Ciao

- viole

 

[exchemist]

There doesn't appear to be any evidence either way. They were excommunicated on paper. Were they excommunicated by actions? I don't know and you don't appear to know either. And how did the church's later softening on this ruling affect the leaders? At what level did the supposed excommunication go into effect? If a clear line cannot be drawn that does support my claim of not taking.

I've already said at what level excommunications take effect: at the level of the parish priest. There is no level in between the bishop and the parish priest.

The instruction was given and as there is no evidence it was not obeyed, there is no basis for making allegations to the contrary. Furthermore, all the evidence is that the church was all the time expressing strong disapproval of the Nazi party and all its works. It's all in that Wiki article. So there is every reason to suppose that the instruction would have been obeyed at parish level.

But, as I have already pointed out a couple of times, it may have made no practical difference, if these people did not attend mass.

The "softening" was of a different ruling, namely that observant Catholics should not be members of the Nazi party, which softening was made for reasons of basic humanity.

 

[metis]

Which is a good thing. It makes the threat largely toothless. But that got me to thinking "Who has been excommunicated by the Catholic church and found that it was not all that rare:

List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

I still don't see Hitler's name there.

EDIT: And some of the excommunications appear to have been political. Bob the Bruce (aka Robert) was excommunicated for a murder. It did happen in church, that was probably a mitigating factor.

The numbers excommunicated should be compared to the overall numbers of total congregants within the Church, which is why I stated that it was used only rarely.

BTW, thanks for the link as I found it interesting. So far at least, may name ain't on it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The numbers excommunicated should be compared to the overall numbers of total congregants within the Church, which is why I stated that it was used only rarely.

BTW, thanks for the link as I found it interesting. So far at least, may name ain't on it.

That only shows that you are not trying hard enough.

 

[metis]

Should we just blindly accept your assertion or are you going to provide some actual verified quotes from the pope?

Maybe google it. Also there are numerous books that cover this.

 

[metis]

So.... was Hitler a member of your church or wasn't he, Metis?

As a child, yes. As an adult, one would have to clarify what one means by "member".

BTW, did you ever read about the atrocities that many Protestants committed, including some clergy, or is your negative critiques just one-sided? Seems much more like the latter based on previous conversations.

BTW, I left my fundamentalist Protestant church in my mid-20's because of it being anti-science and racist. Also, unlike the CC, my former denomination never apologized for its own complicity in the Holocaust or that so many clergy supported the NAZI's in Germany.

 

[Cooky]

Correct. She was 9.

2009 Brazilian girl abortion case - Wikipedia

Ciao

- viole

No, her mother was excommunicated for arranging the abortion. Not the 9 year old... It's in your own article.

 

[Cooky]

The purpose of a formal excommunication is to bring a Christian back into communion. Not to cast away. It informs them of their issue, so they can take steps to address it.

It's not a declaration that someone has been 'kicked out'. It means you already are out, and you need to know it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As a child, yes. As an adult, one would have to clarify what one means by "member".

BTW, did you ever read about the atrocities that many Protestants committed, including some clergy, or is your negative critiques just one-sided? Seems much more like the latter based on previous conversations.

BTW, I left my fundamentalist Protestant church in my mid-20's because of it being anti-science and racist. Also, unlike the CC, my former denomination never apologized for its own complicity in the Holocaust or that so many clergy supported the NAZI's in Germany.

The support for Hitler does appear to have been stronger than that of Catholics. Any religious leader was a bit in between a rock and a hard place. Opposing Hitler put their lives at risk. Supporting him put their soul at risk.