Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

[thomas t]

Why does it matter?

it happens in debating with atheists, that they often claim Hitler was a theist (which is right). And then they often claim that Hitler was Christian. In my opinion, this happens in attempt to show that Christianity is dangerous.
While I am not claiming that Christians can't be dangerous,
it would be interesting to see how Catholics see their brother. Since he was baptised and never left that church, we see here that the Catholic opinion tends to be that he is a Christian, indeed. See #128.

The Bible however, says you must believe in order to be a Christian, see Romans 10:10. This is at least my interpretation of that verse.

So this thread is an answer to allegations that Christianity is dangerous.
While I do not negate this hypothesis, I want to see what the reasoning behind really looks like.
But of course I do know that many believing Christians voted for him, too and there were voices from within the churches that supported Hitler making an argument from religion.* And this is the point where Christians need to admit that their religion can become dangerous.

* see for instance https://www.eh-tabor.de/sites/default/files/wissenschaftliche_arbeiten/bruederhaus_tabor_ns_zeit.pdf, it's a source in German language that was easy to find for me. It shows the support for Hitler stemming from evangelical churches in Germany back then.
I've discussed it in a Christian message board, and the majority of evangelical Christians seemed to opine that these were actual Christian churches that supported Hitler back then.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

because Hitler was a member of the Catholic church.

While you have a point, I think it's probably more valid to say that Hitler was a Protestant.

If someone does not believe in his heart, he is not a Christian, regardless of what denomination that was that gave him the baptism.
Even if the official Catholic position is that the ones baptised into Catholicism are Christians.... I don't support their view.
It's faith that counts always.

And have you used your psychic powers to look deep into the heart of Hitler to see that he didn't believe?

If murderous anti-semitism disqualifies someone from being a Christian, then revered Protestant leaders like Martin Luther and John Calvin weren't Christians either.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.
---------------------
While the Catholic Church does excommunicate people, for instance for what they call false teaching, they did not excommunicate Hitler and his servants.

As blameless as the Catholic church portrays itself to be, they did not find a reason to regret not having kicked him out. Until today. This is at least to the best of my knowledge.

The pope knew what was going on, that there was a holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/

edited for clarity

I'm not a catholic, but I'll take a stab at it...


According to the criteria of the vatican, he certainly counts as a christian.
They indeed "claim" anyone who was baptized and didn't renounce his religion and / or wasn't excommunicated. According to that standard, he definatly was a christian.

As for what Hitler himself said...
I don't find any statements by him where he explicitly distances himself from it.
Au contraire: in Mein Kampf, among other sources, he explicitly does the opposite.

So if you would ask Adolf himself if he is a christian, it seems to me that his answer would be "yes".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not a catholic, but I'll take a stab at it...


According to the criteria of the vatican, he certainly counts as a christian.
They indeed "claim" anyone who was baptized and didn't renounce his religion and / or wasn't excommunicated. According to that standard, he definatly was a christian.

They have a history of "claiming" even people who renounce Catholicism.

The Spanish Inquisition only had jurisdiction over Christians, but it was relatively common for the servant of a Jewish family to come forward and testify that when some prominent Jewish citizen was a baby, they baptized him in secret and never told anyone (including the person who they later claimed was baptized).

That was enough for the Inquisition to declare the prominent Jewish citizen a "Christian" who they would declare guilty of "Judaizing."

As for what Hitler himself said...
I don't find any statements by him where he explicitly distances himself from it.
Au contraire: in Mein Kampf, among other sources, he explicitly does the opposite.

So if you would ask Adolf himself if he is a christian, it seems to me that his answer would be "yes".

I can't think of anyone but Hitler where someone not only loudly, publicly proclaims his religion but actually founds a Christian church, and people respond with "yeah... but was he really a Christian?"

 

[Subduction Zone]

because Hitler was a member of the Catholic church.

So what? Even if he was kicked out he was still a Christian. So why pick on the Catholics?

If someone does not believe in his heart, he is not a Christian, regardless of what denomination that was that gave him the baptism.
Even if the official Catholic position is that the ones baptised into Catholicism are Christians.... I don't support their view.
It's faith that counts always.

I could argue that you "do not believe in your heart". You need to do a lot better than that. You cannot forget the long history of Christian rulers that performed all sorts of evil actions. Being a Christian does not guarantee ethical behavior. In fact in the U.S. a very good case can be made that atheism leads to ethical behavior. Hitler could truly believe, he just has a different version of Jesus than you do. Both appear to be fictitious. His version enable him to perform horrific acts. That seed of belief still exists in Christianity. Hitler got many of his beliefs from Luther. You might think about that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They have a history of "claiming" even people who renounce Catholicism.

The Spanish Inquisition only had jurisdiction over Christians, but it was relatively common for the servant of a Jewish family to come forward and testify that when some prominent Jewish citizen was a baby, they baptized him in secret and never told anyone (including the person who they later claimed was baptized).

That was enough for the Inquisition to declare the prominent Jewish citizen a "Christian" who they would declare guilty of "Judaizing."


I can't think of anyone but Hitler where someone not only loudly, publicly proclaims his religion but actually founds a Christian church, and people respond with "yeah... but was he really a Christian?"

Many Christians will proudly claim that Christianity is the world's largest religion and then very soon after that claim that all sorts of Christians are not "real Christians". Our OP seems to think that Catholics might not be real Christians. Of course if you take off the Catholics Christianity drops to third or fourth in popularity.

 

[metis]

What is odd is that Mussolini is easily shown to be an atheist, and yet no one ever uses him as an example. Do you have a source for your claims about "after the final solution"?

I'm in a hurry today, but you might check on this: Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany - Wikipedia

Also here with this quote:
The 1920 Nazi Party Platform had promised to support freedom of religions with the caveat: "insofar as they do not jeopardize the state's existence or conflict with the moral sentiments of the Germanic race", and expressed support for so-called "Positive Christianity", a movement which sought to detach Christianity from its Jewish roots, and Apostle's Creed. William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9] Himmler considered the main task of his Schutzstaffel (SS) organisation to be that of acting as the vanguard in overcoming Christianity. -- Nazi views on Catholicism - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm in a hurry today, but you might check on this: Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany - Wikipedia

Also here with this quote:
The 1920 Nazi Party Platform had promised to support freedom of religions with the caveat: "insofar as they do not jeopardize the state's existence or conflict with the moral sentiments of the Germanic race", and expressed support for so-called "Positive Christianity", a movement which sought to detach Christianity from its Jewish roots, and Apostle's Creed. William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9] Himmler considered the main task of his Schutzstaffel (SS) organisation to be that of acting as the vanguard in overcoming Christianity. -- Nazi views on Catholicism - Wikipedia

One could say that Hitler's aim was to destroy traditional organized Christianity, but that very article points out that he was still a Christian and supported his personal version. " Positive Christianity " was an antisemitic state supporting version of Christianity. It was weird. It was racist. But technically still Christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm in a hurry today, but you might check on this: Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany - Wikipedia

Also here with this quote:
The 1920 Nazi Party Platform had promised to support freedom of religions with the caveat: "insofar as they do not jeopardize the state's existence or conflict with the moral sentiments of the Germanic race", and expressed support for so-called "Positive Christianity", a movement which sought to detach Christianity from its Jewish roots, and Apostle's Creed. William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9] Himmler considered the main task of his Schutzstaffel (SS) organisation to be that of acting as the vanguard in overcoming Christianity. -- Nazi views on Catholicism - Wikipedia

Sounds about as "anti-Christian" as Marcionism or Henry VIII's crackdown on Catholicism.

Christian sectarianism can be very oppressive for sects that don't have political power, but this doesn't make the sect doing the oppressing "not Christian."

 

[metis]

One could say that Hitler's aim was to destroy traditional organized Christianity, but that very article points out that he was still a Christian and supported his personal version. " Positive Christianity " was an antisemitic state supporting version of Christianity. It was weird. It was racist. But technically still Christianity.

It says this: William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9]

 

[Subduction Zone]

It says this: William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9]

That appears to be more opinion than observations supported by evidence. It is too bad that he is long gone because I would ask for the evidence of that claim.

 

[night912]

That is similar to calling any atheist, who had any childhood training in religion, a default religious person. According to atheist logic, is not about who one chooses to be as an adult, but what one was told to do as a child. That programming is so profound it cannot be undone.

Dawkins, who is considered an atheist spokesman, also learned religion as a child. So he must be a Christian according to this topic. However he is not spun that way by the atheists. This dual standard comes from the atheist religion and is not part of Christian teaching.

Hitler chose to become a pagan atheist later in life, since his actions became anti-christian and not condoned by his early teachings in the church. Instead Hitler bought into Social Darwinism and other sciences of the day like rocket and nuclear science, all for the purpose of selective advantages. He was not about love, but became an angry self centered atheist.

If you know your history, along with the Jews, over 1 million Catholics were sent to concentration camps . These actions were connected to the atheist behavior Hitler developed, As a show of loyalty he forcefully to deny his childhood connections, via his actions. His mother was Jewish and according to the Jewish law that makes him a Jew, which he also denied, in force, in favor of atheism.

Luckily a good Christian country, called America, kicked his butt. According to Christianity there was no greater love that to lay down you life for your brother. The young Christians enlisted to risk life to beat back the atheist axis of evil.

Apparently, it seemed like you misinterpreted what this topic is focusing on. It's to see if claims of Hitler being a Christian is historically accurate/true, it's not looking for a fantasized Hitler like in your fantasy above.

Just wanted to clear things up for you.

 

[ecco]

Many Christians will proudly claim that Christianity is the world's largest religion and then very soon after that claim that all sorts of Christians are not "real Christians".

Our OP seems to think that Catholics might not be real Christians. Of course if you take off the Catholics Christianity drops to third or fourth in popularity.

And if you separate out the Jehova's Witnesses and the Mormons and the Pentacostolics and the Lutherans and the Methodists and the ... you end up with a whole bunch of little sects all having their own set of beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And if you separate out the Jehova's Witnesses and the Mormons and the Pentacostolics and the Lutherans and the Methodists and the ... you end up with a whole bunch of little sects all having their own set of beliefs.

Yes, it is terrible that to be the world's largest religion all sorts of crazies have to be accepted. I want Christianity to be only my sort of crazy

 

[thomas t]

I'm not saying that Catholics aren't real Christians.
If they believe in their hearts and declare Jesus as Lord, they are saved. For me that counts as a Christian.

" Positive Christianity " was an antisemitic state supporting version of Christianity. It was weird. It was racist. But technically still Christianity.

yes, according to you.
But according to the Bible, Christianity needs to have something to do with faith. You can't just put up an organisation and call it "Positive Christianity" and think it is Christian in Bible terms.
If you think "positive Christianity" as Hilter saw it has something to do with the Bible other than the label.... please go ahead and show that it has to do with faith.

@exchemist and @Saint Frankenstein cleared up the issue very well in #52 and #61. China and Russia also founded "Christian" churches but it's questionable if they established Christian churches in the Biblical sense. They wanted to get the power, that's all.
For you, these are all true Christian churches of course.
But that does not mean that the Bible agrees.

For me, the Bible views about Jesus aren't fictitious.

So what? Even if he was kicked out he was still a Christian. So why pick on the Catholics?

as I said: because he was a member of the Catholic church, wasn't I clear enough? Even if you construct a hypothothetic setting about him being kicked out eventually... he was still a member of the Catholic Church as a matter of fact. For me, facts count.

According to your definition, he was a Christian. Yes, of course.

However as I said, Bible does not support a view that, in order for you to be Christian, all you need to do is let the parents get the baptism for you.
Belief is what counts to be saved according to Romans 10:10.

While it is true that, on the one hand he insisted that officers' belt buckles be inscribed with "Gott Mit Uns", he was described by Goebbels as a "fierce opponent" of Christianity on the other. See Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not saying that Catholics aren't real Christians.
If they believe in their hearts and declare Jesus as Lord, they are saved. For me that counts as a Christian.

yes, according to you.
But according to the Bible, Christianity needs to have something to do with faith. You can't just put up an organisation and call it "Positive Christianity" and think it is Christian in Bible terms.
If you think "positive Christianity" as Hilter saw it has something to do with the Bible other than the label.... please go ahead and show that it has to do with faith.

@exchemist and @Saint Frankenstein cleared up the issue very well in #52 and #61. China and Russia also founded "Christian" churches but it's questionable if they established Christian churches in the Biblical sense. They wanted to get the power, that's all.
For you, these are all true Christian churches of course.
But that does not mean that the Bible agrees.

For me, the Bible views about Jesus aren't fictitious.
as I said: because he was a member of the Catholic church, wasn't I clear enough? Even if you construct a hypothothetic setting about him being kicked out eventually... he was still a member of the Catholic Church as a matter of fact. For me, facts count.

According to your definition, he was a Christian. Yes, of course.

However as I said, Bible does not support a view that, in order for you to be Christian, all you need to do is let the parents get the baptism for you.
Belief is what counts to be saved according to Romans 10:10.

While it is true that, on the one hand he insisted that officers' belt buckles be inscribed with "Gott Mit Uns", he was described by Goebbels as a "fierce opponent" of Christianity on the other. See Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

Nope, not "according to me". As I pointed out before his Christianity merely goes against yours. By placing an emphasis on different parts of the Bible almost anyone's Christianity can be " refuted". Including yours.

 

[thomas t]

Many Christians will proudly claim that Christianity is the world's largest religion and then very soon after that claim that all sorts of Christians are not "real Christians".

Who are these "many Christians" Subduction Zone is speaking of? I've never seen any "who proudly claim" they are the biggest religion. It's an empty claim.
I typed in 2.3 billion on the RF search engine to see who actually made the claim that Christians count 2.3 billion and how they would back that assertion up. But it wasn't the Chjristians who claimed so, at least not on this board.
If you know of any, who are they?

 

[thomas t]

Nope, not "according to me". As I pointed out before his Christianity merely goes against yours. By placing an emphasis on different parts of the Bible almost anyone's Christianity can be " refuted". Including yours.

no, you can't refute the claim that being a Christian has something to do with faith, if you claim otherwise: present a quote from Bible.
Don't just post empty claims like you do so often...
I could back my stance up using scripture, how about you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It says this: William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."[9]

Of course, it says this in the same paragraph that says that the Nazis supported "Positive Christianity."

It seems that there's a lot of supposition about what the Nazis might have done if they stayed in power beyond 1945... but they didn't stay in power beyond 1945.

This allows people to come up with all sorts of hypotheticals for what they might have done after 1945. Absurd things like maybe the way the Nazis consistently endorsed and promoted Christianity throughout their entire time in power was just step 1 of a bigger plan to eradicate Christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who are these "many Christians" Subduction Zone is speaking of? I've never seen any "who proudly claim" they are the biggest religion. It's an empty claim.
I typed in 2.3 billion on the RF search engine to see who actually made the claim that Christians count 2.3 billion and how they would back that assertion up. But it wasn't the Chjristians who claimed so, at least not on this board.
If you know of any, who are they?

Psst: the RF search engine doesn't work. It hasn't worked in a while. An update a while back broke it, effectively.