firedragon
Veteran Member
No.
It can be.
But you said it can't be experience. Thats why I was clarifying.
Anyway, thanks.
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No.
It can be.
First a magical incantation, and then(Genesis 1:11-13) 11 Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so. 12 And the earth began to produce grass, seed-bearing plants and trees yielding fruit along with seed, according to their kinds. Then God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
a rapid turbo evolution, mostly through hybridisation, of about one new species every day.The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required.
Well, the ancient greeks also postulated that all matter was made of atoms, which was impressive. If that has been inspired by Apollo, then Apollo beats Yaweh hands down.350 BCE - Aristotle reated a theory on how the Earth was created and how the universe is laid out. He believed the Earth had always existed and was in an almost eternal state. The Earth, to his understanding, was unchanged and always provided a perfect circular motion for the revolving bodies. Aristotle argued for a spherical Earth.
1600 B.C.E - Job wrote... He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing [in the vast heavens, with armies of heavenly bodies]. Job 26:7
Did you read that scripture before?
I read this on bbc.com... Long before anyone circumnavigated the globe or went into space, the ancient Greeks had figured out that the Earth is ball-shaped, rather than flat.
We have known that Earth is round for over 2000 years
However, did you know... over 400 years prior, a Bible writer said the earth was circular... round like a ball.
"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth." Isaiah 40:22
I thought you knew of these before. Did anyone point these out to you before?
Well, even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, even thought that Isaiah passage could adapt to basically everything. But, I would say, that the density of errors on page 1, is more than enough to save ourselves the pain to go to page 2.It's important to consider viole, that God was not instructing his people about science or the mechanisms of his creation, so it's not expected that we would open the Bible, and read how DNA was put together, and it would work, but what we do read in the Bible, is truths, and there are truths that are becoming evident to investigators.
So when the Bible touches on things of a scientific nature - whether biology, or chemistry, it is well ahead, and accurate.
Take for example, the Big Bang. The existing model says the universe began with a tremendous amount of energy (They are trying to replicate this burst of energy, right now, in C.E.R.N).
Genesis 1:1 That's in the1300s BCE.
In the eighth century BC, Isaiah, also wrote of this...
“Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name. Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing. (Isaiah 40:26)
There are a number of other things mentioned in the Bible, that are only recently being discovered.
If what I never heard claims to show evidence of a God's made Universe, or any other extraordinary claim? YesSo anything you have not heard doesnt exist?
Well, as I said, do you see a loophole that would still allow libertarian free will, assuming our physical theories are unitarian, to exist?Thats false. Maybe you are answering another question. No wait. You are absolutely answering some other question.
Well, as I said, do you see a loophole that would still allow libertarian free will, assuming our physical theories are unitarian, to exist?
How? How can you introduce new physical information that was not already available before any act of volition? A miracle? Billions and billions of miracles/day?
Ciao
- viole
If what I never heard claims to show evidence of a God's made Universe, or any other extraordinary claim? Yes
I would think the same if someone told me that there are ancient scripts in the history of humanity that prove the existence of Xenu, the ruler of the galaxy. And when challenged to show them, they reply: well, look yourself for them. LOL
Wouldn't you? If not, then I would say that your epistemic filters let a bit too many things through.
But it should not difficult for you to prove me wrong Let's make a test. What does the creation account of your particular brand of God say? You are Muslim, apparently. So, what does, whatever Scripture is relevant to Muslims, it say about that?
Ciao
- viole
Well, then prove me wrong. What is so difficult? As a theist you should have some Scriptures showing clearly a divine origin, otherwise why believe them?I would never, ever make claims like "If I haven't heard about something, it doesnt exist". You see? Its a very bad complex.
Well, then prove me wrong. What is so difficult? As a theist you should have some Scriptures showing clearly a divine origin, otherwise why believe them?
Ciao
- viole
In case of supernatural claims coming from so called holy books...it is easy to be omniscient .Yes of course. Thinking that if you have not heard of something it cannot exist is logically fallacious. Unless you think you are omniscient. So if you think you are omniscient, then you should be, and it would stand with your claim, if not claiming an omniscient quality while being not is a logical fallacy. You can't be a square circle.
So proven wrong.
In case of supernatural claims coming from so called holy books...it is easy to be omniscient .
I think not, but everyone has their view of what is magical. The mechanism proposed for the ToE based on conjecture and extrapolation are all magical to not just a few billion people.To summarise and to make clear I have understood, you propose two mechanisms:
First a magical incantation, and then
a rapid turbo evolution, mostly through hybridisation, of about one new species every day.
Did I get that right?
You certainly have made quite a few assertions, but I think you did so based on your viewpoint.With the magic part you agree with @Link and with the second you agree with Darwin, only you think that speciation happens much faster than evolutionary biology predicts.
Citation please.Big non-random type mutations and rapid type, that can't be accounted by randomness.
You believe that... Great.I actually believe this only way species can survive, the slow wait for a good mutation speed of natural type evolution can never bring change fast enough for them to survive.
I do forgive all those who read the Bible and don't understand a word of what they read. There are reasons for that.Well, the ancient greeks also postulated that all matter was made of atoms, which was impressive. If that has been inspired by Apollo, then Apollo beats Yaweh hands down.
And did you read the part where it says water existed before the stars, in your Bible? That is enough to throw away the rest (at least if we interpret it literally, and we have no clue of science).
And circles are not spheres, believe me.
Ciao
- viole
Magic is the temporary suspension of the the laws of nature, whereas a miracle is the temporary suspension of the laws of nature only that a believer in miracles believes a deity is somehow involved.I don't hold to that view of what is magic, so if someone said God did magic, no I did not agree with that person.
However, I am sure, like myself, @Link did not say magic, and he believes in miracles, as I do.
This is a clear example of case 1. A state of no life to a state of life and in between only a magical (miraculous) incantation. No explanation of atomic steps in between.(Genesis 1:11-13) 11 Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so.
Thank you.You know @nPeace the verse you quoted from Isaiah about the "circle of the earth" brings to mind another passage, 1 Samuel 2:8 where it says "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and on them he has set the world". So we have a circle that rests on pillars. Sounds flat, and explains why prominent Christian leaders used to think the Bible depicted a flat earth.
However, what stands out to me with both Isaiah and 1 Samuel is that they are very, very clearly poetry/songs. Now I don't know about you, but I don't usually look to those genres for scientific insights, you know? I figure the folks who wrote those were like most poets and songwriters....their focus is on conveying spiritual, philosophical, abstract, and/or emotional messages, rather than being scientifically precise.
So do you think it's possible you're taking those passages the wrong way and reading them in the wrong context?