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Questions about 666

Again off the topic, however I have not acquired the gift of mind reading I just have had enough experience as a human to know how we work. The messiah also did and the scriptures point this out through out. That is why the messiah was hated and still is. It is also why people use his word, as he points out, to twist and turn so people become confused and misled. Satan even tried to use scriptures to manipulate the messiah into turning away from the truth but it was in the messiah's heart to do what was asked of him by his father and so was able to stand up against satan even in his sufferings. The truth is the truth regardless of what a anybody claims they believe. If the truth can't convince anybody I don't expect I will either but it doesn't mean I won't at least try. This is the end times and the truth about the anti-christ j-e-s-u-s will be shared to the believer as well as the unbeliever. We have been told that time will tell by those who don't believe. We agree and say amen to that.
 
Would it help if you felt the scriptures had significance? Try looking at them through the scriptures themselves and not through biased interpretations that are so prevelant around us including in christianity. That is exactly why the man the book of Revelation was written through hid the meaning of the mark of the beast. As other scriptures support, it would be revealed in its own time which is now. Do you disagree that j-e-s-u-s adds up to 616 using the same methods scholars have used with the Hebrew language for many years now?
 

MEMNOCK

Spiritual Tour Guide
Why do so many people get excited about the number 666?

Where in the Bible does it say that 666 is such a bad number, and why?


Revelations...Its not...some christians still believe that it is evil even though it isn't
 
I do. That's just nuts. Which scholar has done that? What's this business with j-e-s-u-s. Jesus is just fine. :rolleyes:


You say you do, but based on what? the letters j, e, s, u, s do add up using the hebrew language to 616. Again j=yod=10, e would not be considered, s=shin=300, u=vav=10, and s=shin=300. yod shin vav shin = 616. You think you can disprove this? Check it out using the hebrew language and like I stated many scholars and many others for a long time have been doing this with a myriad of names trying to figure out the beast. You can use bible encyclopedias and dictionaries as well as hebrew dictionaries or even search online to back this up. You will find it in many places.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
You say you do, but based on what? the letters j, e, s, u, s do add up using the hebrew language to 616. Again j=yod=10, e would not be considered, s=shin=300, u=vav=10, and s=shin=300. yod shin vav shin = 616. You think you can disprove this? Check it out using the hebrew language and like I stated many scholars and many others for a long time have been doing this with a myriad of names trying to figure out the beast. You can use bible encyclopedias and dictionaries as well as hebrew dictionaries or even search online to back this up. You will find it in many places.

At first glance, this appears inconsistent to me. The "u" in Jesus would be vav with a vowel point of the same value as the "e" - in other words, if the "u" receives a numerical value as a vowel point (which would not make sense) then the "e" must be considered as well. No doubt, the "e" was left off as a vowel but the "u" was considered - in order to come to the number 616.

It also doesn't make sense that Jesus is 616 because that would make him the Beast. Others have argued that Nero in Latin adds to 616 and this argument as failed.

I am having trouble finding any resources online - it would help if you could provide a link so I can actually refute what you're talking about.
 
I do understand the appearance of the seemingly inconsistency. Like playing a guitar a note is a note even if you don't understand why. You start out playing it because it makes a sound and other sounds along with it are pleasing to the ear. I did not write the rules on sound nor on the Hebrew language, you can be thankful for that. However the u or vav is considered both a vowel and a consonant and is written in the Hebrew language the vowels are not. I don't know if I can post links on the forum yet. I tried to place a quote by someone who had one on their thread and it would not let me post it until I removed the link. It believe it said I needed to have at least 15 posts under my belt before I could post links, or something along those lines.


I did not purposely leave out the e to the name to make it work out to 616. I would not benefit by doing this. I used to believe in that name and was devastated when I stopped using it. I don't know if you could imagine, I hope you can. If you look at all the points made that elaborate about the beast it fits. There are many and I can elaborate at some time. I have been trying to put as much as I can on a website. I just hope people will look into it for themselves. It is a big, big deal, I understand this. If anyone denies it because I say it, ok. If anyone denies it because it they are going against the facts that is another thing.


This is from a site called ancient scripts:
Like all Proto-Sinaitic-derived scripts, vowels are not written in either Old Hebrew nor Jewish scripts. However, it became increasingly important to record the vowels when Aramaic became more popular as the spoken language rather than Hebrew. So the system known as "matres lectionis" was devised where certain letters were used to represent long vowels: 'aleph for [a:], he for [o:] and [a:], waw for [o:] and [u:], and yodh for [e:] and [i:]. However, matres lectionis was not a complete system, and by the 9th century CE the practice of adding dots and lines, called nikkudim, above or below a letter to indicate a vowel came into being. This is known as the "Tiberian" system, named after the city of Tiberias in Palestine, and joined matres lectionis as part of the Hebrew writing system.


The israeli newspapers write without the vowels and the marks. You have to understand the context to understand the meaning. It is something like this. The ct ran up the tree. What would ct be in english? you have a few choices of vowels to put in ct and "o" would not fit the sentence unless it stated it was thrown. a "u" would not work unless it was pertaining to someone who got cut up climbing one. It is obvious looking at the context that it would be an "a" for cat.


This is from wikipedia
Original Biblical Hebrew text contained nothing but consonants and spaces and this is still the case with Torah scrolls that are used in synagogues. A system of writing vowels called niqqud, (from the root word meaning "points" or "dots") developed around the 5th Century CE. It is used today in printed Bibles and some other religious books and also in poetry, children's literature, and texts for beginning students of Hebrew. Most modern Hebrew texts contain only consonant letters, spaces and western-style punctuation and to facilitate reading without vowels mater lectionis (see below) are often inserted into words which would be written without them in a text with full niqqud. The niqqud system is sometimes used when it is necessary to avoid certain ambiguities of meaning — such as when context is insufficient to distinguish between two identically spelled words — and in the transliteration of foreign names.

Like I said there is a lot of information and this could give you a start. The bible states the whole world would be deceived. There is a lot more info that points to this. Thanks for looking into it, the bible states "seek and you will find".

2 Thessalonians
2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

2 Corinthians
11:13 For such men are false emissaries, deceitful workers, masquerading as Messiah’s emissaries. 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

and don't forget the command "do not make an image". What is the crucifix?
It also makes sense then why in revelation it says

3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has names written and a name written which no one knows but he himself.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I do understand the appearance of the seemingly inconsistency. Like playing a guitar a note is a note even if you don't understand why. You start out playing it because it makes a sound and other sounds along with it are pleasing to the ear. I did not write the rules on sound nor on the Hebrew language, you can be thankful for that. However the u or vav is considered both a vowel and a consonant and is written in the Hebrew language the vowels are not. I don't know if I can post links on the forum yet. I tried to place a quote by someone who had one on their thread and it would not let me post it until I removed the link. It believe it said I needed to have at least 15 posts under my belt before I could post links, or something along those lines.


I did not purposely leave out the e to the name to make it work out to 616. I would not benefit by doing this. I used to believe in that name and was devastated when I stopped using it. I don't know if you could imagine, I hope you can. If you look at all the points made that elaborate about the beast it fits. There are many and I can elaborate at some time. I have been trying to put as much as I can on a website. I just hope people will look into it for themselves. It is a big, big deal, I understand this. If anyone denies it because I say it, ok. If anyone denies it because it they are going against the facts that is another thing.


This is from a site called ancient scripts:
Like all Proto-Sinaitic-derived scripts, vowels are not written in either Old Hebrew nor Jewish scripts. However, it became increasingly important to record the vowels when Aramaic became more popular as the spoken language rather than Hebrew. So the system known as "matres lectionis" was devised where certain letters were used to represent long vowels: 'aleph for [a:], he for [o:] and [a:], waw for [o:] and [u:], and yodh for [e:] and [i:]. However, matres lectionis was not a complete system, and by the 9th century CE the practice of adding dots and lines, called nikkudim, above or below a letter to indicate a vowel came into being. This is known as the "Tiberian" system, named after the city of Tiberias in Palestine, and joined matres lectionis as part of the Hebrew writing system.


The israeli newspapers write without the vowels and the marks. You have to understand the context to understand the meaning. It is something like this. The ct ran up the tree. What would ct be in english? you have a few choices of vowels to put in ct and "o" would not fit the sentence unless it stated it was thrown. a "u" would not work unless it was pertaining to someone who got cut up climbing one. It is obvious looking at the context that it would be an "a" for cat.


This is from wikipedia
Original Biblical Hebrew text contained nothing but consonants and spaces and this is still the case with Torah scrolls that are used in synagogues. A system of writing vowels called niqqud, (from the root word meaning "points" or "dots") developed around the 5th Century CE. It is used today in printed Bibles and some other religious books and also in poetry, children's literature, and texts for beginning students of Hebrew. Most modern Hebrew texts contain only consonant letters, spaces and western-style punctuation and to facilitate reading without vowels mater lectionis (see below) are often inserted into words which would be written without them in a text with full niqqud. The niqqud system is sometimes used when it is necessary to avoid certain ambiguities of meaning — such as when context is insufficient to distinguish between two identically spelled words — and in the transliteration of foreign names.

Like I said there is a lot of information and this could give you a start. The bible states the whole world would be deceived. There is a lot more info that points to this. Thanks for looking into it, the bible states "seek and you will find".

2 Thessalonians
2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

2 Corinthians
11:13 For such men are false emissaries, deceitful workers, masquerading as Messiah’s emissaries. 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

and don't forget the command "do not make an image". What is the crucifix?
It also makes sense then why in revelation it says

3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has names written and a name written which no one knows but he himself.

I read both Hebrew and Greek - my Greek is far, far better, but the inconsistency remains. If the vav is a consonsant and a vowel, it is most certainly not a consonant in "Jesus" otherwise the "u" would be a "v" and we'd have a completely different transliteration in Greek and English. I assume that the "j" is not counted because the yod in Hebrew can be a vowel and consonant as well (just like the "Y" in English).

For example, see Yeshua (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So far your direction has been of no use to me. I need a scholar who thinks that Jesus = 616. Everything else is just uesless.
 
It is also interesting to note that “u” “v” “w” and “y” originate from the vav aka waw.
"W" is actually double u. it used to be written uu. The history of the alphabet is an interesting one. I will post our website when I can, I have a list of references including dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books, and language books. Both secular and sectarian.

This is from Judaism 101
Vowels and Points
Like most early Semitic alphabetic writing systems, the alefbet has no vowels. People who are fluent in the language do not need vowels to read Hebrew, and most things written in Hebrew in Israel are written without vowels.

However, as Hebrew literacy declined, particularly after the Romans expelled the Jews from Israel, the rabbis recognized the need for aids to pronunciation, so they developed a system of dots and dashes called nikkud (points). These dots and dashes are written above, below or inside the letter, in ways that do not alter the spacing of the line. Text containing these markings is referred to as "pointed" text.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
It is also interesting to note that “u” “v” “w” and “y” originate from the vav aka waw.
"W" is actually double u. it used to be written uu. The history of the alphabet is an interesting one. I will post our website when I can, I have a list of references including dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books, and language books. Both secular and sectarian.

This is from Judaism 101
Vowels and Points
Like most early Semitic alphabetic writing systems, the alefbet has no vowels. People who are fluent in the language do not need vowels to read Hebrew, and most things written in Hebrew in Israel are written without vowels.

However, as Hebrew literacy declined, particularly after the Romans expelled the Jews from Israel, the rabbis recognized the need for aids to pronunciation, so they developed a system of dots and dashes called nikkud (points). These dots and dashes are written above, below or inside the letter, in ways that do not alter the spacing of the line. Text containing these markings is referred to as "pointed" text.

Even if all of this stuff were true, it would not solve the inconsistencies in Jesus and 616.

I have my doubts of the first statement above... there was a time when folks thought that all languages evolved from Sanskrit or Hebrew, but those days are long gone (your reference books may be a bit out of date).
 
The point isn't where the languages originated. Sure there is a connection between Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English as well as others. Hebrew aleph, bet, gimel, dalet, Greek alpha, beta, gamma, delta, then onto english a, b, c, d. In fact if you look at the design of English it is more similar to the semitic languages than todays Hebrew is.

Are your doubts are based on thin air or is there supportive documentation?

Even Joshua is written with the vav in Hebrew. You have your doubts and claim inconsistencies but again based on what? Yeshua in hebrew uses the vav and the yod as well. Like I said I don't make up the rules and I have researched this and every book in the library, the synagogues, the christian libraries, hebrew dictionaries, hebrew classes, Hebrew histories I could get my hands on. You can doubt me like I said but what makes your opinion more credible than all the references. There are people who believe the existence of the dinosaurs is a government conspiracy along with man's travelling to the moon. How do you know it isn't true what they say. I wasn't on the moon with Mr. Armstrong but it sure makes sense he was there. So should I doubt the books that people learn their language from and tell everyong a vav should be written here or there or not here or not there. I will leave that up to someone else. Until that gets changed It is what it is. By the way did you hear the tree fall in the woods or weren't you there? It doesn't make sense to me. They use to say smoking cigarettes was good for you also, there were many who tried to warn folks but many did not listen. If you want to smoke that is up to you but why be convinced or choose to believe it is good for you in order to justify yourself. A vav is a vav is a vav. I will go by how it is used. Not whether someone thinks that there is inconsistencies because they just see it that way. How do you read Hebrew and not know a vav is written even if it appears to sound as a vowel?
 
I read both Hebrew and Greek - my Greek is far, far better, but the inconsistency remains. If the vav is a consonsant and a vowel, it is most certainly not a consonant in "Jesus" otherwise the "u" would be a "v" and we'd have a completely different transliteration in Greek and English. I assume that the "j" is not counted because the yod in Hebrew can be a vowel and consonant as well (just like the "Y" in English).

For example, see Yeshua (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So far your direction has been of no use to me. I need a scholar who thinks that Jesus = 616. Everything else is just uesless.

Well your direction should have some use to you though. Yeshua - Wikipedia states the spelling to be יֵשׁוּעַ
This spelling is yod shin vav ayin. note the "e" and the "u", there is no e in the spelling but there is a vav.

This is quite similar, yeshua being Joshua in english translation. If you look at yeshua in hebrew translated to greek as you probably know it can be either iesous or iesou. In the bible this translates to Joshua in what is called the Tanach or Old Testament. The same spelling is used in the greek New Testament and at times the translation is Joshua (if referencing the OT) but Jesus if referencing Christ. Why the inconsistency. Even the King James references Joshua as Jesus when talking about the Old Testament Joshua since the spelling is the same. They don't do that usually any more. Why don't you question that?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Are your doubts are based on thin air or is there supportive documentation?

The burden of proof is on you, friend. I'm not claiming that Jesus is 616, I've merely shown that your argument is inconsistent, and frankly I doubt that it exists anywhere other than in your mind. You haven't shown any documentation, either, and you're the one who presented the argument in the first place. As it is, I can find no one that believes it, and I don't think that I've ever heard of it, but one never knows what nutty stuff people are saying.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Well your direction should have some use to you though. Yeshua - Wikipedia states the spelling to be יֵשׁוּעַ
This spelling is yod shin vav ayin. note the "e" and the "u", there is no e in the spelling but there is a vav.

... and, as we can see, the spelling is disputed because the Greek can be back-translated into Hebrew more than one way. However, within these choices the "e" and the "u" are both vowels if we are going to be consistent.:rolleyes:
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How do you read Hebrew and not know a vav is written even if it appears to sound as a vowel?

So is the yod, which receives no value in that numerological fantasy.

Like I said:
If the vav is a consonsant and a vowel, it is most certainly not a consonant in "Jesus" otherwise the "u" would be a "v" and we'd have a completely different transliteration in Greek and English. I assume that the "j" is not counted because the yod in Hebrew can be a vowel and consonant as well (just like the "Y" in English).
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
I once saw an explination of the bar code.
It showed that every barcode began and ended with a 6,
and had a 6 somewhere in the middle.
(at least that is what I recall)

I thought that was a rather interesting co-insidance.:cover:

I think that was Hal Lindsey who said that, but its been around for a while. I think its been debunked.
 
I don't see that you are showing any inconsistancies on my part but Keep going, you are proving it yourself, whether you see it or not. The yod has been stated to equal 10 and has cosistantly been throughout this thread.
yod=10 shin=300 vav=6 shin=300

Who was creating a numerology from Joshua? I have only been calculating the beast jesus as = to 616. Joshua would be yod+shin+vav+ayin (ayin=70) which =386. I was only using to show the spelling and the translation into scripture of the same spelling as the old and new testament with different names thinking you might see the inconsistency there. Which by the way supports that Jesus is inconsistent in its placement even in the scriptures. That would make sense since it = the mark of the beast 616. Also the image of the beast 666 = the crucifix and the scriptures state images of anything are forbidden to be made.

What documentation are you looking for? You yourself have shown the documentation that Yeshua is spelled yod, shin, vav, ayin. That is exactly how I spelled Jesus except with a shin at the end yod, shin, vav, shin. It is what it is. So you put the letters in yourself what is the J in Hebrew? What is the e in Hebrew? What is the s in Hebrew? What is the u in Hebrew? What is the s again in Hebrew? At least try to amuse me in doing so and then add it all up. Tell me what you come up with? Maybe you don't care but at least for the debate sake give it a shot.
 
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