So he's capable of convincing people to do what he wants when it suits him?
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Questions for God
- Thread starter blü 2
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Dimi95
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Very often humans use their genitals for child abuse , rape and staff like that.
So it's pretty clear that if there is a God , he would care for that.
What is pretty odd to me is how you object that.
Does it you bother the care for righteousness?
Before I answer, please clarify:
Do you want me to respond as if your misrepresentation of what I said was deliberate or a sincere mistake? I can't tell from your post which is the case, so I'll leave it to you to say.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
Feel free to explain where did you want to go with the question.
I apologize upfront if i did any mistake.
It's the world and human nature that God created.
If a God exists the what exists is what he intended, and to object is to object to God's will. Is that what you mean?
Are you claiming to be more righteous than God? I ask since God created all that exists exactly as it is, and if you could do better, well, so could most anyone, including atheists.
Dimi95
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So you object that we are not perfect , is that what you are trying to say?
You are talking in a sense that we don't have any choice.
How did you come up with that conclusion?
I try to contemplate the highest good on continual basis.Is that wrong?
I'm getting the message that what you want to say is everything has to be perfect from God,or?
Can you explain better , if you don't mind.
Why would I think humans were perfect? It is Christian interpretation of Genesis that humans were originally perfect, but then screwed up. Of course the question is how does a perfect human make a mistake?
According to Christian beliefs we didn't have a choice in how God created we humans.
What Christians claim about their interpretation of the Bible.
You didn't answer my question.
No, Christians claim that the reason there is bad in the world is due to humans. But bad/evil wouldn't exist had God not created it. So any evil that occurs is due to God creating it. Let's note, God created many immature humans, as well as many with mental illness, so go figure.
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Dimi95
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That is wrong.
That is why Nietzsche said there was only ever one Christian , and that was Christ.
They were given the ability to learn.
And they screw up by choice, i have already answered you in another topic.
By what you say , every child should have the right to chose how it will be created.
It's nonsense
The fact that you are older and probably more expirienced then me does not say that you know what Christianity means.
This is so vague.
You don't even bother to read what Christians say.
Totally irrelevant. But since you bring him up, Jesus was just another of a series of attempted fixes that God tried, but still failed. And as you note by bringing up Nietzsche, he accused the Catholic Church of killing God, Christianity is highly flawed. Even Jesus couldn't set humans straight.
Who, Adam and Eve? No they weren't. The Tree of Knowledge was forbidden.
Humans? Yes, humans can learn, but as we see many have emotional problems that occur naturally, and they never have the ability to manage their mnds like the lucky do.
Some do, but many are born into situations where they don't learn good social behaviors, or have mental health issues. Just as God caused, according to believers, unintentionally.
Wrong. We naturalists understand there is a lottery of life, and some benefit, and some do not. I bring up the many chioldren who are born with genes that cause some sort of cancers, and they live short lives fighting for life by enduring painful treatment. And a God exists that is loving? Tell me more about nonsense.
This is a sad complaint, not any sort of wisdom or understanding as guided by a religion. In my long experience Christians does nothing for people who lack virtue and decency. The decent person who happens to be Christian will be decent, but not because of Christianity. Those who are Christian should be wary of their religion and look at their own character and hone integrity. Christianity can appeal to the worst in character, and the believer needs to be carfeul. As an exampl;e, remember the Holocaust was committed by Lutherans and Catholics, an`d all those people believed they were saved.
Sorry, I've debated Christians since 1996, and the literalists claim that God created A&E perfect, and made a bad decision to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and this resulted in our fallen world. But as I noted, how do perfect beings make a mistake? And if God rreally wanted A&E to obey the rules, don;t you thi nk they would have be able to follow the rules? Note that God even sent Satan to tempt them. That is a set up.
If God doesn't make mistakes, how did Eden fail? He created every part of it.
Dimi95
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I accuse the Church for many things , what does that make me , less Christian?
You bring the argument of fragmentation again , and again it does not have sense.
Now i am more convinced that you did not read carefully Genesis 2
One question , what is babies first words?
Most likely saying Mom or Dad , right?
Why do you say that?
It seems to me that this is personal.
Why do you think that i would even think of something like that?
Why do you not even try to bother to talk on common grounds?
This is not a therapy session.
You do not decide what should Christians do , to be clear.
Nor do i decide what you should do.
@Trailblazer said "we cannot even imagine what God is like."
In other threads, she's told us that:
- God dislikes consensual gay sex.
- God dislikes consensual sex in an opposite-sex relationship if the couple is unmarried.
- God likes consensual sex in an opposite sex relationship if the couple is married.
It seems strange in the first place for an asocial, magical alien to have such specific views on details of human interactions. It seems stranger still that @Trailblazer would be able to speak with such certainty about a being she claims is a complete mystery.
IOW, something doesn't add up in what she's saying.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Human behaviors that God dislikes has nothing to do with what God is like.
What God is like is related to God's intrinsic nature, not what God likes or dislikes.
So, "we cannot even imagine what God's intrinsic nature is like."
Intrinsic nature would be things like where God resides, what God is comprised of, how God thinks and feels, how God gets things done -- we cannot ever know these things about God.
As I just touched on, you often go on at great length about how God feels about human sex.
You've also told us how God feels about free will, and you've often told us how God works with regard to "messengers."
It seems like the only time that God is mysterious at all is when you're asked for justification.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The laws that God reveals through His Messengers are not about 'how God feels.'
They are about how God wants humanity to behave.
Again, this is not 'how God feels.' It is what God has revealed through His Messenger.
Yes, that is one thing we know about God, but it still says nothing about God's intrinsic nature -- what God IS.
Justification for what?
If God exists and God is omniscient and omnipotent (with some apparent exceptions remarked in the OP) then before God created the universe God already perfectly knew everything that would and will ever happen in that universe.
Since ex hypothesi God went ahead and created the universe while perfectly possessing that knowledge, God intended, and intends, everything that ever happens. You can never blindside God. You can do only and exactly what [he] perfectly foresaw.
The child molester, Trump, Hitler, all accord with God's intentions.
Or else God is not omniscient and not omnipotent and didn't know what [he] was doing when [he] made the universe.
How could it be otherwise?
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
C.S. Lewis:
"His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God."
And here is something more.
But of course "free will" has two meanings. One is that "I" get to decide independently of any external coercion (the only meaningful one).
The other is that "I" get to decide independently of my own brain's evolved decision-making processes, as they exist at the time, influenced by my genetics and life experiences. How do you propose we get around that limitation?
Dimi95
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But you have that.
Are you forced to accept God? Yes or No , please.
So in your world , your choice is not compromised, or am i wrong?
Because there is a preposition that tells you 'accept or reject' doesn't change the fact that you have a free choice , or ?
You can reject that and you can argue it as long as you want.
You have a choice.
Or Am i wrong?
So i can say that what you are arguing is the preposition and not the 'free will' , or i got the message wrong?
This is how i understand it , based on what you say.
If i am wrong , please correct me.
It depends what you accuse them of, like critical that they have accepted evolution. Or that they don't torture anyone for being infidels anymore. In any event you are as Christian as you say you are. There is no ethical or moral standard. Those who committed the Holocaust were Lutheran and Catholic, and their Christian beliefs were not an influence for their conscience while murdering Jews.
That's bad luck.
Your first words were "Bring me the head of Alfredo Garcia." Kinda freaked out your parents, but they did it.
I say that because it is an observation of reality, and offsets the idealisms many Christians hold about humans having free will. Humans do not have the idealized free will that most theists refer to. Humans make many subconscious decisions that are not deliberate.
What, an observation that is apparent to anyone?
What do you think is unfair? I notice you don't really finish your thoughts. I can't read your mind. Don't be afraid of using words.
I get to offer critique to any claims made on an open forum. If you object then perhaps forums aren't your thing.
Many of us use forums as a means to check our ideas and thinking, and invite criticism and analysis. That's not for everyone.
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No humans answer to any actual God. No God is known to exist. So when you say the word "God" it means "man-made religion". Religious norms were the original form of social contract, but as humans evolved in complexity and reasoning the superstition was abandonded and we understand that we follow the rules we set for ourselves. If you kill someone and get arrested you don't get excused by claiming God said you could do it. The law doesn't recognize God. It recognizes human laws and agency.
This means what believers imagine, or adopt. God does not relate to anything that is real and definable.
Knock yourself out with what you imagine, or have read and believe. Whatever you think God is it's not factual. Even though you recite your Baha'i beliefs they are not backed by fact, so they lack credibility in an open forum that relies on fact.