Questions that believers cannot answer

[URAVIP2ME]

You have got to be kidding me.

Besides the word God being a title so is the word Lord a title and Not a personal name. No kidding.

 

[Koldo]

If you were a small town employee and a corrupt employee caused the small town's business (which was the source of income for the people) to go bankrupt and No one was buying the company the people would Not only be loosing their job but could not now pay for bills or food.
A benevolvent benefactor read about the people's plight and decided to buy the company and care for the people.
God is our Benevolent Benefactor because Satan and Adam bankrupted us from everlasting life.
Because we can't stop sinning we die, so we needed someone who could resurrect us. Jesus can and will.
God bought out Satan's ' business of sin ' for us by sending heavenly pre-human sinless Jesus to Earth for us.
By sinless Jesus' dying a faithful death our sins can be blotted out - 1 John 1:7
In the Bible, God is Not only our Benevolent Benefactor but also Creator and heavenly Father.
( Father means: Life Giver and Not life taker - Revelation 4:11 - everlasting life from the God of the Bible )

None of that actually makes sense...
First of all because if God is omnipotent nobody has to die unless God wants that happen.
Otherwise you would have to say that our sins are more powerful than God's omnipotence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, but that is not what I am asking though.
That was an illustrative question to understand how you see morality.
Take it as a given that God exists. If God thinks of himself as benevolent, would that be a mere opinion of his or a fact? Could his own understanding of morality be something other than a personal opinion?

If God thinks of himself as benevolent, it would not be either a mere opinion of his or a fact. It would be reality.

Then the goal is also the journey itself.
If the goal was merely the end point, then omnipotence would be incompatible with it.
Using the cake analogy: An omnipotent entity may want to go through all the steps to bake a cake, and that is entirely compatible with omnipotence. The distinction though is that every step is willed rather than being done out of necessity. I wonder why you would see this as benevolent by the way.

I guess you missed the point I was making in my previous post.

God is not going through any steps, humans are going through the steps, and since humans are NOT omnipotent it is necessary for humans to go through all the steps in order to get to the end point. The steps are taken out of necessity because it is necessary for humans to go through the steps in order to get to the end point. God is not willing anything for us but rather God has given humans free will to complete our own journey.

If there is no logical constraint, there is no reason as to why spiritual qualities can't be attained without suffering.

Maybe spiritual qualities can be by some people without suffering but others need suffering to attain.
The world was created as it is for everyone with the idea that some people need suffering to attain so that is why there is suffering in the world.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Besides the word God being a title so is the word Lord a title and Not a personal name. No kidding.

So how do you decide when it's actually a reference to God?

 

[Koldo]

If God thinks of himself as benevolent, it would not be either a mere opinion of his or a fact. It would be reality.

What distinction are you drawing between 'fact' and 'reality'?
Why would it be reality rather than a fact or an opinion?

I guess you missed the point I was making in my previous post.

God is not going through any steps, humans are going through the steps, and since humans are NOT omnipotent it is necessary for humans to go through all the steps in order to get to the end point. The steps are taken out of necessity because it is necessary for humans to go through the steps in order to get to the end point. God is not willing anything for us but rather God has given humans free will to complete our own journey.

Every actualized state of affairs must be God's will if we are talking about an omnipotent god. Assume that God has some sort of goal that he doesn't actualize instantly, but rather by going through many other actualized states of affairs: that is what I am calling 'steps'. And what I am saying is that every single 'step' (or allows to happen) God takes must necessarily be a goal in itself, since it would be pointless to actualize something contrary to what God wants. Therefore, every single time someone suffers, that is exactly what God wants to happen at that time.

Maybe spiritual qualities can be by some people without suffering but others need suffering to attain.
The world was created as it is for everyone with the idea that some people need suffering to attain so that is why there is suffering in the world.

How is this just?

 

[YoursTrue]

You said you had emotional pain that caused you to consider taking your own life on several occasions. That is the definition of "mental health issues". With all due respect, accepting you have a problem is the first step in addressing the problem.

Religion will not address the cause of the problem. Like medication, it just addresses the symptoms. Counselling, therapy, etc are the only way to address the source. The fact that you say the issue is long-term and ongoing suggests that the Band Aid of religion keeps coming off.

Hope for better things to come and faith in God helps to sustain our lives. Psalm 37 is encouraging.

 

[Bird123]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

To Discover the answers, one must look beyond the surface and beyond the hurt.

This is a multilevel classroom of children all learning at different levels, rates, and lessons. Further. the children have all lived multiple lifetimes for there is far too much to learn than could ever be done in one mere lifetime.

The mere dynamics of all the variables of all the people and the interactions is simply amazing. It is far too much for one to see it all at our level. On the other hand, one can see much if one widens their view and opens their mind to all the possibilities.

Life is about learning and growing as people. Instead of focusing on having it made and never hurting, one needs to see HOW IT CHANGES THINGS.

Even through the worst things, people are learning and changing. Something good will come out of every adversity. One must focus beyond the hurt and look for the learning and growing.

Mankind's goal is to have it made with no problems. God's goal is to teach His children leading them to great knowledge and wisdom through their free choices.

Yes, people can choose some very hard lessons for themselves, but there is much more. There are souls who volunteer to go through great adversity in order that others See, Understand, or Learn. No matter what happens, God has fixed it ahead of time. We are all Eternal.

When times are good, we sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, one must study, analyze, think, and work at discovering ways to resolution. Much is learned on that path to wisdom.

Adversity points the way, however people take adversity personally. In time, learning can become almost impossible. This is the reason for death. Death is no more than a change.

After death, each will go to God and experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a Love that feels so good, so complete it heals all hurt. One sees where one is and where one needs to be. This is the point of judgment. Each will judge themselves.

Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional Love, however there comes a time when kiddies must go back to school. One is placed in a new physical body to live and learn, ever moving forward to understanding what it takes to create a heavenly state not only for ourselves but for others and beyond.

God's system is a Masterpiece!! Since it was created by High Intelligence, it takes High thinking and lots of work to see all that is going on. It stares us all in the face!!

Eternity does have Purpose!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

What distinction are you drawing between 'fact' and 'reality'?
Why would it be reality rather than a fact or an opinion?

A fact is something that can be proven whereas reality is what exists whether or not it can be proven to exist.
An opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information: fact

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=opinion+meaning

Reality:

1. the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=reality+means

Every actualized state of affairs must be God's will if we are talking about an omnipotent god. Assume that God has some sort of goal that he doesn't actualize instantly, but rather by going through many other actualized states of affairs: that is what I am calling 'steps'. And what I am saying is that every single 'step' (or allows to happen) God takes must necessarily be a goal in itself, since it would be pointless to actualize something contrary to what God wants. Therefore, every single time someone suffers, that is exactly what God wants to happen at that time.

Just because God is omnipotent and can control everything that does not mean that God chooses to control everything. God allows humans free will and does not override that free will, so everything that happens is not what God wants, not unless it was predestined by God.

I made that clear in my OP.
Questions that believers cannot answer

How is this just?

It does not feel just to me. Didn't you see what I said in the OP?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

What is unjust is that some people suffer so much more than others for no apparent reason, not that people who don't need to suffer to grow spiritually also have to suffer, simply because God created this world to be a storehouse of suffering.

 

[Koldo]

A fact is something that can be proven whereas reality is what exists whether or not it can be proven to exist.
An opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information: fact

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=opinion+meaning

Reality:

1. the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=reality+means

Just because God is omnipotent and can control everything that does not mean that God chooses to control everything. God allows humans free will and does not override that free will, so everything that happens is not what God wants, not unless it was predestined by God.

Even if God chooses not to control everything he is getting exactly what he wants, all the time. Even when he does nothing. God can not want something and it not being actualized. That would contradict his omnipotence and omniscience since he has both the will to actualize a state of affairs and the power to do it, therefore nothing preventing him from getting what he wants.

I made that clear in my OP.
Questions that believers cannot answer

It does not feel just to me. Didn't you see what I said in the OP?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

What is unjust is that some people suffer so much more than others for no apparent reason, not that people who don't need to suffer to grow spiritually also have to suffer, simply because God created this world to be a storehouse of suffering.

They are both cases of being unjust.
Is it just to allow anyone to experience suffering for no reason?

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if God chooses not to control everything he is getting exactly what he wants, all the time. Even when he does nothing. God can not want something and it not being actualized. That would contradict his omnipotence and omniscience since he has both the will to actualize a state of affairs and the power to do it, therefore nothing preventing him from getting what he wants.

God could get what He wants because there is nothing preventing God from getting what He wants, but that does not mean that everything that happens in this world is what God wants. God can allow things to happen that He does not want to happen....

They are both cases of being unjust.
Is it just to allow anyone to experience suffering for no reason?

I don't think so, but if it is for the sake of spiritual growth, that is not for no reason.

 

[idea]

Maybe spiritual qualities can be by some people without suffering but others need suffering to attain.
The world was created as it is for everyone with the idea that some people need suffering to attain so that is why there is suffering in the world.

Do you believe everyone will gain the same exaltation? If suffering does not lead to exaltation, then no - suffering does not help.

I left God- hate the idea of God- because of suffering .

Beat someone up - don't expect them to love you for it. Abuse does not refine anyone, it gives you ptsd, many go insane- most homeless are there from mental illness from abuse as an example. Kicking and abusing people does not make them more loving.

I'll say it again - I hate the idea of God.

Little innocent kids, all the horror - and you think - they needed to be abused?? That abusing kids is good for them? You are ****ed up, you are as bad as the abusers. Sick.

 

[Koldo]

God could get what He wants because there is nothing preventing God from getting what He wants, but that does not mean that everything that happens in this world is what God wants. God can allow things to happen that He does not want to happen....

Why would God allow something he doesn't want?
Why would he allow something contrary to his will?

I don't think so, but if it is for the sake of spiritual growth, that is not for no reason.

Sure, but only if strictly necessary for such growth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you believe everyone will gain the same exaltation? If suffering does not lead to exaltation, then no - suffering does not help.

No, I do not believe that everyone will gain exaltation from suffering. That is a religious apolegetic.

I left God- hate the idea of God- because of suffering .

Beat someone up - don't expect them to love you for it. Abuse does not refine anyone, it gives you ptsd, many go insane- most homeless are there from mental illness from abuse as an example. Kicking and abusing people does not make them more loving.

I'll say it again - I hate the idea of God.

I FULLY understand, but I still believe that God exists and is all-powerful, so I fear God even though I cannot love a God that created a world with so much suffering.

Little innocent kids, all the horror - and you think - they needed to be abused?? That abusing kids is good for them? You are ****ed up, you are as bad as the abusers. Sick.

I have to agree. I cannot understand how anyone can love God and have compassion for humans at the same time.

 

[rational experiences]

Men's new church legal system was strict.

No man is God forbade even Alchemy.

As Alchemy however involved invented implements so that order was changed.

Sadly give a little a lesson in life...never support evil versus life's sealed God.....water....... then a lot was allowed to re evolve. Just on human choice from the allowance.

As it's true no human was once given any permission to argue. It was our life saving status on earth. Hypocrites real a confession life became what it had.

The hypocrite advice however was pertinent. You can't just say and by the way stop civilisation it was evilly gained.

Men's minds uncontrollable in its dysfunction. As no man controlled heavenly fallout. Why it was very strict. Men knew the reasons.

The cause of changed minds associated with Satan's star fall.

Exact.

Today we don't realise how language expression was told by thought before. By brain function. Their brains before as language today proves is very different. Just as it was before.

How you interpret the meaning proves not many humans agree with translation. A stated fact. As what we believe it meant it hadn't.

As a thesis is all over the place first. Lots of subjects advices that only a human theist strung together. Why.

Therefore we know humans didn't own books and stories first. They were living natural. All humans terms owned life first no argument. Not a story.

As we are in exactly the same position now. With just ego driven humans basing ideas on fake human only implemented choice.

Basic advice no argument.

Humans today know we need to go back to basics. Know. It's our only hope.

So we can use basic just human common sense. About earth and cosmic values easily known.

Yes earth first still has burning falling stars.

Phenomena life attacked changed is seen everywhere.

Men shouldn't be changing earths cold sealed sun attack. It's dangerous.

Pretty basic real human advice.

I don't need a book to argue but I know humans use information to support current lived advice also.

It's why new books were ever written by new human experience now. Right where we live. Basic advice owns no argument.

Humans claim I want to live the place of no argument.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would God allow something he doesn't want?
Why would he allow something contrary to his will?

Because God wants people to choose, but what they choose is not necessarily what God wants them to choose.

Sure, but only if strictly necessary for such growth.

True.

 

[PearlSeeker]

So if a person prevents a moral evil, free will doesn't exist?

The context was lost... I meant Creator making a world without moral evil would be a world without free will.

 

[PearlSeeker]

No you don't. If I have a free choice between five different good acts, then I have free will.

By your argument, every imaginable action must be available to us at all times or we don't have free will. Which is obvious nonsense.

No. If you have free choice for a good act then there is at least one evil alternative - refraining from a good act.

 

[PearlSeeker]

How does the non existence of evil mean there can be no good?

If you forcibly prevent someone doing evil then one is just a puppet not doing good by himself.

 

[KWED]

As I read it, rational is a matter of opinion.

Not really. A rational argument will stand up to independent scrutiny. It does not rely on opinion.

Apparently you defined it yourself... well done.

This is truly bizarre.
The word "study" (verb) has a dictionary definition. It is not what you claim it to be.
When I used your definition in the context of "study the Bible", it made no sense....
"To divide the word of truth of the Bible".

I have, and I am the wiser.

With all due respect, it appears that you don't know what "wiser" means either.

Yes, although still have much to learn.

Have you though? Or did you read it simply to confirm your existing belief? Do you believe there is a real possibility that the whole god and Jesus thing is nothing more than ancient myth and superstition?

 

[KWED]

I agree with you. We would be puppets on a string.

How? That's like saying that if you removed all the desserts, you wouldn't be able to choose a main from the menu.