Questions that believers cannot answer

[samtonga43]

I just thought of an answer to your question. I cannot speak for other believers but I follow God because I am afraid of Him. I am sure you have heard the expression Fear of God.

And there we have it.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Why? You haven't explained this.
There would still be the ability to choose from any number of different actions at any given time.

Does the fact that [concept that has no meaning to us because it doesn't exist] doesn't exist mean that we don't have free will and are just puppets?
Obviously not.
Same would apply if the concept of evil had never existed.

Suppose you have the freedom to choose only good actions. How can all alternatives always be equally good? If there is a need for action how can doing nothing be good?

 

[KWED]

I already explained this.
What you said is illogical because all of God's laws do not pertain to evil acts.

You said...
"evil is acts committed by man because man does not adhere to God's Laws."
Are you now saying that you didn't mean that?

Sex is not an evil act, so breaking the Law pertaining to homosexuality does not make one evil.

Some sex is against god's law. And if evil is committed by "not adhering to god's law", then homosexual sex is evil.

Sex is not an evil act]/quote] Is rape evil?

 

[KWED]

Suppose you have the freedom to choose only good actions. How can all alternatives always be equally good?

Why do all options need to be equally good?

If there is a need for action how can doing nothing be good?

So you accept that without evil, we still have free will and are not puppets.

I could choose to do nothing rather than something because you have already chosen to do something rather than nothing, and the need only requires one person to act.

 

[KWED]

The message is from God, so it is God's responsibility, but what people do with it is their own responsibility since we all have free will.

If the messenger says that god says that some people should be tortured to death, and believers torture some people to death, who is responsible for those people being tortured to death?

I never made such an argument.

That was what you implied by saying that we need proof that god spoke to them before accepting their claims.

I fact, I said we have to accept their claims on faith since there is no proof.

So if someone said that god spoke to them and their message replaces Bahaullah's, you would accept their claims on faith?

I have also said I do not need proof because I have evidence.

We have been through this many times. You do not have evidence, you have belief.

NO, I do not believe the claims because 'they claimed' God spoke to them. I believe because of the evidence.

The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah are in this post:
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

That whole thing is based on question begging. It assumes the conclusion that a god exists before presenting your argument for god existing. If there is no god, there are therefore no messengers of god. So, you first have to prove the existence of god before you can claim he sent any messengers.

There is also the laughable claim by Bahaullah that the evidence for him being a messenger of god is him claiming that he is a messenger of god.

No, that is not what I said. You twisted what I said and made a straw man.
I said we could blame the Messengers if they had bad actions since they should know better. Since they do not have bad actions we cannot blame them.

Are you seriously claiming that no "messenger of god" ever did anything bad?
Muhammad had people tortured to death and executed helpless prisoners. He kept and traded slaves. You don't think that is "bad"? Yikes!

 

[rational experiences]

Pretty basic creation concept.

Something other as first form burnt then stopped burning and cooled.

Science says O God earth was burning then cooled. God status said by men.

Said cooling gases by volcanoes of earth exploded and cooled gas spirit in space.

So we say space cooled what was burning.

Space we claimed became the higher status in humans teaching only....as it allowed cooling.

What we taught.

So why would something once not burning want to burn.

A fallacy....as it hadn't known burning is what we taught. Nor had our human life.

Being burnt humans said is evil. As we learnt.

And only science burns what had cooled.

No one could stop you brother.

The teaching said is a human...
believer in Satanism science or of God only highest.

As intelligence says as gods cause is still cooling it's hence still reactive itself.

There isn't any real holiness in the review.

Yet if a human causes you to burn yet it's stopped.... then there is holiness in that review.

The highest answer men gave was space causes.

So they taught space was a mother as the God a father by self intention hadn't stopped reacting. O planet. Inheritor.

Your human man's comparison was directly inferred. You won't stop burning converting what was cooled evolved.

Therefore some humans thoughts understand burning. Which by direct awareness says they understand evil.

As human men did understand evil.

Human intention is hence involved in any thesis. What types of thoughts you CHOOSE to believe in. Your choice.

Pretty basic. Human choice only.

Image as taught said men emerge only when caused atmospheric heating then cools. Heating not meant to be caused.

So going away from evolution is seen as what spirit gas isn't.

Which produces artificial images not living. Nor evolution.

That emerge then disappear as they don't belong. Cooling removes presence. Cooling however saved biologies presence.

Pretty basic advice ....humans only disappear when evil humans pretend they deserved to. Humans lie. The agreement for legal said it was because humans lie.

All books agreed to be written by humans.

If you write new God information the definition is I now state a new god message. As a human I then am gods messenger. Aware and causes experienced.

Yet notice...as a human the statement is stated.

 

[KWED]

That’s your problem, not mine.

You said that it wasn't explained because we don't need to know it.
If I need to know it, then it should have been explained. Unless you were wrong. So, any other ideas?

I know it is so different because Baha’u’llah wrote that.

He might have been making it up.

I know something as I know it will be different from this world.

You don't "know", you "believe".

I have no idea.

What did Bahaullah say about it?

We FIRST believe that He was a Messenger of God, and then e believe what He says.

But you only believe he was a messenger of god because he said he was. So, before you believed he was a messenger of god, why did you believe him when he said he was?

No, just passages.

Same thing. Of all the religious texts I have read, Bahaullah's are the worst for meaningless platitudes.

I cannot argue with that because that is essentially what it is, hell on earth with promises of heaven.

So why does god make your life hell on earth if he is going to make it all better soon? What is the point? What does he hope to achieve?

How much have you suffered? From what you have said it is not much. I am the one who should be complaining.

Yeah, not really at all. And I am not complaining about life. I think it's great. I am asking why god makes some people suffer while making life easy for others. It makes no sense, unless it is all just a combination of chance and environment.

No, that is not true because not everything has been ordained and manifested by God. Some things tat happen are subject to free will.

But with anything that has been ordained and made happen by god, we can have no free will.

How do you know what has been ordained by god and what is just random stuff happening?
Although, because god knowns everything that will happen, it's not just random. There is only one possible outcome for every event - which is also problematic for free will.

 

[KWED]

That is not what I said, that is just what you twisted what I said to mean....

*sigh*
It may not be the actual words you used, but it is the implication of what you said.
"God only does what God chooses to do. As humans we cannot do anything about that"

I said God only does what He chooses to do, and He can do whatever He chooses to do.

So we are just subject to god's whim, no matter how irrational.

That is easy to answer. God created us out of His love for us.

That makes no sense.
Before we existed, how could god love us?
And if he loved us, why did he crate us in such a way that necessitates so much suffering? That is not rational behaviour.

That is correct. God does not need us to exist because God has no needs at all..
That is correct. Non-existence would be preferable to the suffering experienced by many through what God "has ordained and manifested".
That is also correct.

So we agree that there is no point and no need for the universe or humanity to exist.
So all the suffering is not just completely meaningless, it is deliberately sadistic.

 

[rational experiences]

You said that it wasn't explained because we don't need to know it.
If I need to know it, then it should have been explained. Unless you were wrong. So, any other ideas?

He might have been making it up.

You don't "know", you "believe".

What did Bahaullah say about it?

But you only believe he was a messenger of god because he said he was. So, before you believed he was a messenger of god, why did you believe him when he said he was?

Same thing. Of all the religious texts I have read, Bahaullah's are the worst for meaningless platitudes.

So why does god make your life hell on earth if he is going to make it all better soon? What is the point? What does he hope to achieve?

Yeah, not really at all. And I am not complaining about life. I think it's great. I am asking why god makes some people suffer while making life easy for others. It makes no sense, unless it is all just a combination of chance and environment.

But with anything that has been ordained and made happen by god, we can have no free will.

How do you know what has been ordained by god and what is just random stuff happening?
Although, because god knowns everything that will happen, it's not just random. There is only one possible outcome for every event - which is also problematic for free will.

Civilisation orders behaviours and conditions are directly just a human choice.

No God said now go and murder family and scare them as a threat to innocent meek to be slaves for building and your servitude brother.

As living a natural life balanced in nature is survival by gods terms. Serving balances as God had created.

Civilisation. Isn't a justice balance or equality.

Gods status was equality mutual.

Which is not civilisation.

Therefore no use saying God told me. In fact teaching said burning star fall changed human brain mind to believe in evil.

Wasn't God at all.

Now if you teach what changed of gods that supported your balanced life in nature?

Holy water. Heated.
Holy oxygen. Was removed.
Gases were burning falling.

God hadn't owned the cause. God only owned the effect.

 

[rational experiences]

If innocence never knew evil until it was caused.

1. It would not have been involved in burning first.
2. Innocent creator would never have owned any other type of experience than its own. Yet the same being would have applied intention to believe that new change wouldn't affect old change.

3. As we copy the origin intent by our own consciousness. Theists try to say they can change states without changing anything. As proof.

Proving you believe in origin terms once again.

As we've past 2012 consciousness proves it has remembered new yet old advice.

The only sadistic word use belief intention is owned by human men first.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Why do all options need to be equally good?

So you accept that without evil, we still have free will and are not puppets.

I could choose to do nothing rather than something because you have already chosen to do something rather than nothing, and the need only requires one person to act.

Without (possibility of) evil/less good we will have no options. We would be programmed to always take action and we would always have one option - the most good action. That's puppets with no freedom.

 

[Truth in love]

I believe that the souls of all humans come into existence at the time of conception, and later they are born with physical bodies.

However, I believe that the souls of the Prophets are different. I believe their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world and later their souls were sent by God to earth to unite with their bodies and then they were born into this world.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Why would a prophets soul be all that different from the rest of us?
Why would we not have been there “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:7)

 

[KWED]

No, you do not know that, you just believe that. It is only your personal opinion based upon what YOU consider benevolent.

The word "benevolent" has a meaning.
If a person deliberately causes pain and suffering, or if they do not prevent pain and suffering if they are able to, then they are not benevolent, by definition.
That is all. You cannot redefine words just because the actual definition doesn't suit you.

God is not going to prevent all suffering.

Why not? I would if I were god. Wouldn't you?

That is just my personal opinion that God is not loving, it is not my belief.

So you think that god is not loving, but you believe that he is loving.
That makes less sense than most of your arguments!
(Remember that I have shown you several times that "belief" and "opinion" are synonymous in this context.)

The only logical alternative is that there is no God.

So you favour an illogical argument for god over a logical one against god.
Yeah, I'd kinda worked that out already.

I do not base my worship on whether I get what I ant. that is childish.

Who mentioned getting what you want? The point is that if god deliberately designed a universe to include a lot of unnecessary suffering, then god is a twat and doesn't deserve to be worshiped.
So, why do you worship such a god?

I think it sucks because I am the one who has been suffering constantly,

But as it is part of god's perfect plan, the best way to achieve his goals, why do you even consider it to be suffering?

but that does not mean I cannot think logically and realize that it is the best possible way to accomplish God's plan.

There is nothing logical about it. As god can do anything, he could accomplish his plan without anyone suffering.

It is still suffering

for me even if it is what God wants. I have the ability to separate those two things because I know that I have an emotional part and a logical part. I do not have to like what God wants just because I understand it.

Using all this new-found logic of yours, can you explain why it is so important to god that you suffer so much, while I don't suffer at all?

 

[KWED]

You do not know what God with those qualities would do, you just have ego projections about what you believe He would do if He has those qualities.

Oh dear god!
Yes we do know, because of the meanings of the words.
A "merciful" god lets people off their deserved punishment.
A "just" god gives people what they deserve.
A "benevolent" is kind to people.

I do not define it. That word is not even in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and I do not know where it originated. The word benevolent is in the Writings, not omni-benevolent

Oh, fas! So how do you define "benevolent"? (Omni in this context just means "all", "most", etc. It does not affect the definition of the word)

That is not my ego talking, it is my mind.

*sigh* Here we go again.
The mind forms the ego. The ego is part of the mind.

i know God is not ripping the limbs off every living creature so it is a moot point if that would be benevolent.

*bigger sigh*
I reworded your own argument to show you how it is fundamentally flawed.

 

[CG Didymus]

Are you seriously claiming that no "messenger of god" ever did anything bad?
Muhammad had people tortured to death and executed helpless prisoners. He kept and traded slaves. You don't think that is "bad"? Yikes!

In that thread about Islam, what was it that Abdul Baha' claimed? That Muhammad didn't do anything evil? That he did kill people, but it was justified because it was in self-defense? And even if Baha'is find a way to make Muhammad "sinless" and "perfect", the Bible has Moses disobeying God and killing a guy. So, even the Bible doesn't try to make Moses out to be a "perfect" and "sinless" manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would a prophets soul be all that different from the rest of us?
Why would we not have been there “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:7)

I believe they are different because God made them that way.
I believe the prophets, who I normally refer to as Messengers of God, have a twofold nature, one human and one divine, whereas ordinary humans only have a human nature.

Do you believe that Jesus was merely human? It is clear to me that Jesus was more than human, but He was not God incarnate, He was a Manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

And there we have it.

Have what? Another understated criticism of me implying that I do not follow God for the "right reason"?

Fear of God is a good reason to follow God, perhaps the most important reason.

"But while God is repeatedly described as full of love, grace, and bounty in the Baha’i Faith, dozens of passages also emphasize the importance of the “fear of God.” Baha’u’llah exhorts us to “fear God” or have the “fear of God” more than a dozen times in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (known as the Most Holy Book) alone, and in various places He describes the fear of God as “the essence of wisdom,”2 “the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues,”3 “the weapon that can render him victorious” and “the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose.”4"

If you want to understand what Fear of God means to a Baha'i, you can read this blog:
The Fear of God. What Does It Mean? - Baha'i Blog

There is no contradiction between loving God and fearing God, one can do both.

“Arise, O wayfarer in the path of the Love of God, and aid thou His Cause. Say: Barter not away this Youth, O people, for the vanities of this world or the delights of heaven. ……. Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.” Gleanings, p. 38

“Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified.…Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you.” Gleanings, p. 98

“Say: O people! Withhold not from yourselves the grace of God and His mercy. Whoso withholdeth himself therefrom is indeed in grievous loss. What, O people! Do ye worship the dust, and turn away from your Lord, the Gracious, the All-Bountiful? Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish.” Gleanings, pp. 104-105

“Set before thine eyes God’s unerring Balance and, as one standing in His Presence, weigh in that Balance thine actions every day, every moment of thy life. Bring thyself to account ere thou art summoned to a reckoning, on the Day when no man shall have strength to stand for fear of God, the Day when the hearts of the heedless ones shall be made to tremble.” Gleanings, p. 236

“Beware not to deal unjustly with any one that appealeth to you, and entereth beneath your shadow. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be ye of them that lead a godly life..” Gleanings, p. 251

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him..” Gleanings, p. 256

“ He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.” Gleanings, p. 272

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.” Gleanings, p. 275

“Say: Fear God, O people, and refrain from shedding the blood of any one. Contend not with your neighbor, and be ye of them that do good. Beware that ye commit no disorders on the earth after it hath been well ordered, and follow not the footsteps of them that are gone astray.” Gleanings, p. 277

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

 

[Trailblazer]

You said...
"evil is acts committed by man because man does not adhere to God's Laws."
Are you now saying that you didn't mean that?

Some sex is against god's law. And if evil is committed by "not adhering to god's law", then homosexual sex is evil.

I do not believe that homosexual sex is evil since sex is not evil.
I am not going over this again, as I have already explained it twice.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the messenger says that god says that some people should be tortured to death, and believers torture some people to death, who is responsible for those people being tortured to death?

Those people.

That was what you implied by saying that we need proof that god spoke to them before accepting their claims.

I never said that we need proof that God spoke to them before accepting their claims.
In fact, I said there is no proof so we have to accept their claims on faith and evidence.

So if someone said that god spoke to them and their message replaces Bahaullah's, you would accept their claims on faith?

No, I would not, because Baha'u'llah wrote that anyone who laid claim to a Revelation direct from God, before the expiration of a full thousand years (before 2852 AD) would eb a lying imposter.

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 32

We have been through this many times. You do not have evidence, you have belief.

I have belief which is based upon the evidence.

That whole thing is based on question begging. It assumes the conclusion that a god exists before presenting your argument for god existing. If there is no god, there are therefore no messengers of god. So, you first have to prove the existence of god before you can claim he sent any messengers.

There is no assumption that God exists, there is belief based upon the evidence.
The existence of God can never be proven. The only evidence that there is a God is the Messengers of God so we have to believe in the Messengers FIRST, before we can believe in God.

There is also the laughable claim by Bahaullah that the evidence for him being a messenger of god is him claiming that he is a messenger of god.

That is a straw man since I have said repeatedly that the claim IS NOT the evidence.
When you ignore what I say as if I never said it that shows you are not listening.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Are you seriously claiming that no "messenger of god" ever did anything bad?
Muhammad had people tortured to death and executed helpless prisoners. He kept and traded slaves. You don't think that is "bad"? Yikes!

No Messenger of God ever did anything 'bad' in the sight of God.
What seems bad to fallible humans is not bad in the sight of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said that it wasn't explained because we don't need to know it.
If I need to know it, then it should have been explained. Unless you were wrong. So, any other ideas?

Does the world revolve around you? Should it have been revealed just because YOU need to know?

What did Bahaullah say about it?

Nothing, because we do not need to know and could never understand it.

But you only believe he was a messenger of god because he said he was. So, before you believed he was a messenger of god, why did you believe him when he said he was?

No, I do not believe he was a messenger of God because he said he was. I have told you that umpteen million times. I believe based upon the evidence, NOT the claim.

Same thing. Of all the religious texts I have read, Bahaullah's are the worst for meaningless platitudes.

Fine then, you are free to believe that, but if you believe that why are we still discussing this?
What I believe about the Writings of Baha'u'llah is that they are God's own Book...

“His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings, p. 270

So why does god make your life hell on earth if he is going to make it all better soon? What is the point? What does he hope to achieve?

Spiritual growth.

Yeah, not really at all. And I am not complaining about life. I think it's great. I am asking why god makes some people suffer while making life easy for others. It makes no sense, unless it is all just a combination of chance and environment.

You tell me and then we will both know, and I am the one who should be complaining because I got the short end of the stick, and I have endured endless suffering, through no fault of my own.

It is a consequence of nature and nurture, a combination of fate and free will.

But with anything that has been ordained and made happen by god, we can have no free will.

That is true, but not everything has been ordained and made happen by God, only some things have been. Please refer back to the OP, I explained it there.

How do you know what has been ordained by god and what is just random stuff happening?
Although, because god knowns everything that will happen, it's not just random. There is only one possible outcome for every event - which is also problematic for free will.

We cannot know what has been ordained by God vs. what happened as a result of free will.
God knows everything that will ever happen but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of what happens. Humans are the cause, God's foreknowledge is an attribute of God.