Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

There's hope for you yet.

It is that inner conflict thing... I feel one thing but believe another.
but I am sure God knows that.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have admitted that "god ordains and manifests" events in our lives. Why does this not apply to cancer?
And even if god doesn't ordain that anyone has cancer, he could prevent it. Why did he create cancer in the first place?

God did not create cancer, he created a world where people and animals can get cancer when the conditions are such that the immune system fails or people inherit the gene for cancer.

It makes no sense that God is now going to [prevent cancer since He was the One who created the conditions for cancer to exist...Capish?

Where did I say they were more important?
I use the example of infants because it negates the "It's a punishment for their sins" argument of some apologists.

I don't buy that punishment argument, that's Christian.

So now you admit that god does indeed cause suffering.
What is that purpose?
What is the purpose behind infants with cancer?

There is no purpose for that, not for the infants. They are just collateral damage, a way to make the parents suffer.

Because it's an important issue that underlies the irrational nature of religious belief.

No, it is not even related to religious belief. The fact is that the world is a storehouse of suffering even if there is no God.

Why do you think that some suffering is necessary, especially in the context of a god that can create a universe without suffering?
Remember that - the suffering we see in not necessary because god could have made the universe suffering free. But you claim it is necessary. So why?

What God could have done is a moot point because God did not do it
God could have created the world differently such that there was no suffering, but since God did not do that it is necessary for us to endure the suffering.

But you don't care that it makes no sense. You just accept it anyway.

I accept it because it is reality, regardless of any religious beliefs.
The suffering in this world is not evenly distributed so some people suffer much more than others. No, it is not fair but think about how it could be different. Everyone's life circumstances cannot be the same so some people are just lucky and others aren't.
That'd be true even if there was no God.

Convenient.
Why would that be the case? It certainly isn't the case in real life.

How do you know it is not the case in real life?

Didn't think you understand what "ego" means.

I think I do, given I have a MA degree in psychology.

Correct. "Benevolent" has meaning, and that meaning involves certain types of behaviour. A benevolent person helps people avoid suffering rather than inflicting suffering. Pretty simple really.

God is not a person. To compare God with a person and expect the same behavior that would be expected of a person is the fallacy of false equivalence.

People's beliefs are definitely shaped by their life experiences to some degree. Genuinely puzzled that you think otherwise. Do you think people's beliefs just appear in their minds, fully formed, out of nowhere?

I was not talking about whether people's beliefs are shaped by their life experiences, of course they are. I was talking about asking people if suffering made them grow stronger or not.

I said:
"We can get some answers as to whether suffering helped people grow stronger if we talk to people who have suffered a lot and look at their lives, and these people could be atheists or believers."

 

[Trailblazer]

You have already admitted that god ordains and manifests events in people's lives. That necessarily negates free will.
You are back to contradicting yourself again - possibly because you didn't really understand what you were saying in the first place.

I think you need to go back and read the OP. It is not an either/or.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Bahaullah is more important to Bahais than god?

How did you ever get that idea from what I said?

No, Baha'u'llah is not more important to Baha'is than God, I think they are equally important since Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.

My friend @Truthseeker can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are really making no sense here.
You think god was wrong to create the universe the way he did, but at the same time accept that it is the best universe possible?

You have never heard of a conflict between thoughts and feelings?
I feel that God is cruel for creating a world with all this suffering, and I told Him so on my walk a little while ago, but I do not think (believe) that.

It would help a lot in these conversations if you understand that I have some conflicts so that is why I sometimes say opposite things.

Not having a choice doesn't make something necessary.

It sure as hell does. If a man is convicted of murder and gets a life sentence it is necessary for him to go to prison for life because he has no choice.

The murder victim doesn't have a choice about being killed. Does that make their death necessary? You seem to be implying again that god had no choice but too create the universe the way he did.

I never said that God had no choice but to create the world this way. I have said more than once that God did have a choice. God could have created humans with no free will so they could not choose to commit murder.

 

[Trailblazer]

That does not explain why the suffering is necessary. It only acknowledges that we have no alternative but to suffer it, because it happens.
The question is - "why was it necessary for god to create a universe with suffering?"

Suffering is necessary to endure because we have no alternative but to endure it, because it happens.

I cannot answer "why was it necessary for god to create a universe with suffering?"
Only God has the answer to that question.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is becoming apparent that, at least in @Trailblazer's version of Bahaism, Bahaullah is the voice of authority and object of devotion rather than god.

That is absolutely false.
Baha'u'llah is the voice of authority because Baha'u'llah is the Voice of God and God has all authority, but God alone is the object of devotion. The short obligatory prayer makes that perfectly clear. That prayer was written by Baha'u'llah and it makes it clear that we are ONLY to worship God:

Short Obligatory Prayer

TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS, AT NOON.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

Bahá’u’lláh

Short Obligatory Prayer

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would god want you to fear him?

If you read the passages in this post #517 hopefully you will be able to figure out why fear of God is so important.

Here is my favorite:

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

On the other hand, it is obvious why men would want to establish a system that instills fear and obedience into the masses.

It is also obvious why God would do that, and you will understand if you read ans comprehend those passages..

The promise of reward and the threat of punishment is what has always motivated people, and always will. And what better threat and reward than ones that are limitless and everlasting?

That's true, we will get the reward in heaven, but we are not supposed to believe in God so we can get to heaven.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

 

[KWED]

Without (possibility of) evil/less good we will have no options. We would be programmed to always take action and we would always have one option - the most good action. That's puppets with no freedom.

Just repeating your initial claim is not a valid response to my posts pointing out the flaws in your initial claim.
Also some heavy goalpost moving there, by adding "less good" to "evil". A sure sign that you realise your argument has failed.

If evil does not exist, when I choose what to have for breakfast, what to wear, which route to take to work, which clients to take on, who to date, where to go on holiday, etc, etc...
How do I not have free will?
How am I merely a puppet programmed to take only one option?

Note: simply repeating "But without evil, we have no free will" is a waste of both our time.

 

[KWED]

Without (possibility of) evil we will have no options. We would be programmed to always take action and we would always have one option - the most good action. That's puppets with no freedom.

@Trailblazer
I'm interested to know why you upvoted this post.
It is clearly and demonstrably nonsense, but you obviously read it and thought "Good point! That makes perfect sense".
Explain?

 

[KWED]

Have what? Another understated criticism of me implying that I do not follow God for the "right reason"?

Fear of God is a good reason to follow God, perhaps the most important reason.

"But while God is repeatedly described as full of love, grace, and bounty in the Baha’i Faith, dozens of passages also emphasize the importance of the “fear of God.” Baha’u’llah exhorts us to “fear God” or have the “fear of God” more than a dozen times in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (known as the Most Holy Book) alone, and in various places He describes the fear of God as “the essence of wisdom,”2 “the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues,”3 “the weapon that can render him victorious” and “the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose.”4"

If you want to understand what Fear of God means to a Baha'i, you can read this blog:
The Fear of God. What Does It Mean? - Baha'i Blog

There is no contradiction between loving God and fearing God, one can do both.

“Arise, O wayfarer in the path of the Love of God, and aid thou His Cause. Say: Barter not away this Youth, O people, for the vanities of this world or the delights of heaven. ……. Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.” Gleanings, p. 38

“Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified.…Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you.” Gleanings, p. 98

“Say: O people! Withhold not from yourselves the grace of God and His mercy. Whoso withholdeth himself therefrom is indeed in grievous loss. What, O people! Do ye worship the dust, and turn away from your Lord, the Gracious, the All-Bountiful? Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish.” Gleanings, pp. 104-105

“Set before thine eyes God’s unerring Balance and, as one standing in His Presence, weigh in that Balance thine actions every day, every moment of thy life. Bring thyself to account ere thou art summoned to a reckoning, on the Day when no man shall have strength to stand for fear of God, the Day when the hearts of the heedless ones shall be made to tremble.” Gleanings, p. 236

“Beware not to deal unjustly with any one that appealeth to you, and entereth beneath your shadow. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be ye of them that lead a godly life..” Gleanings, p. 251

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him..” Gleanings, p. 256

“ He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.” Gleanings, p. 272

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.” Gleanings, p. 275

“Say: Fear God, O people, and refrain from shedding the blood of any one. Contend not with your neighbor, and be ye of them that do good. Beware that ye commit no disorders on the earth after it hath been well ordered, and follow not the footsteps of them that are gone astray.” Gleanings, p. 277

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

Why do you fear god?
What will happen to you if you don't worship him?
He already makes you suffer more than most people.
After death, hell is merely not being with god, and if you don't like him and fear him, that is surely a good thing.
So what are you worried about?

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer
I'm interested to know why you upvoted this post.
It is clearly and demonstrably nonsense, but you obviously read it and thought "Good point! That makes perfect sense".
Explain?

@PearlSeeker said: Without (possibility of) evil/less good we will have no options. We would be programmed to always take action and we would always have one option - the most good action. That's puppets with no freedom.

Let me translate into my understanding of what he meant by what he said:
If we had no free will we could not choose between good and evil so we would be like puppets on a string, with God controlling everything we do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you fear god?
What will happen to you if you don't worship him?

I don't know but I am in no hurry to find out, but that is not why I worship God, out of fear.
The reason I worship God is in the short obligatory prayer, because that was what I was created for, to know and worship God..

Short Obligatory Prayer

“I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”

Bahá’u’lláh

He already makes you suffer more than most people.
After death, hell is merely not being with god, and if you don't like him and fear him, that is surely a good thing.
So what are you worried about?

That is true that He makes me suffer more than most people but that is not my criteria for deciding whether I will worship Him or not (see above prayer).

I do not want to be in hell after I die so I am going to keep working on loving God the way I am supposed to.

Now my friend I am going to work on eating dinner and going to bed since it is 1 am here and I have no idea what I will be facing tomorrow.

 

[KWED]

I do not believe that homosexual sex is evil since sex is not evil.
I am not going over this again, as I have already explained it twice.

Bahaullah called homosexuality an "evil passion".
Shoghi Effendi called it "one of the evils affecting society"
Abdulbaha said giving in to your "evil passions" makes you no better than an animal (just in case you missed that, he is calling practicing homosexuals "animals")

Ready to change your position now?

 

[KWED]

@PearlSeeker said: Without (possibility of) evil/less good we will have no options. We would be programmed to always take action and we would always have one option - the most good action. That's puppets with no freedom.

Let me translate into my understanding of what he meant by what he said:
If we had no free will we could not choose between good and evil so we would be like puppets on a string, with God controlling everything we do.

You have that the wrong way round.
Their argument was that if evil did not exist, then we would have no free will. (They added the "less good" in an unsuccessful attempt to move the goalposts).
Not "if we have no free will, then we cannot choose between good and evil". That is an entirely different argument. Not sure how you managed to get that from what they said.

 

[KWED]

I don't know but I am in no hurry to find out,

I thought you believed that "hell" is "separation from god and not a painful punishment.

but that is not why I worship God, out of fear.

You just said...
"I follow God because I am afraid of Him"
*flip*

The reason I worship God is in the short obligatory prayer, because that was what I was created for, to know and worship God..
“I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”

So you worship god because god tells you that it is your job to worship him.
More blindly following dogma then.

That is true that He makes me suffer more than most people but that is not my criteria for deciding whether I will worship Him or not (see above prayer).
I do not want to be in hell after I die so I am going to keep working on loving God the way I am supposed to.

So despite making you suffer and you not really liking him, you feel obliged to love him to avoid punishment.
Sounds like quite an abusive relationship you have with god.

 

[PearlSeeker]

If evil does not exist, when I choose what to have for breakfast, what to wear, which route to take to work, which clients to take on, who to date, where to go on holiday, etc, etc...
How do I not have free will?
How am I merely a puppet programmed to take only one option?

We are talking about ethical good.

 

[KWED]

Those people.

Wrong.
It is both the people committing the atrocity, and the people who ordered it.

I never said that we need proof that God spoke to them before accepting their claims.
In fact, I said there is no proof so we have to accept their claims on faith and evidence.

You earlier said that you would need proof that someone had spoken with god before accepting their claims.
"If you can prove that God spoke to someone and told them to do x or y, then maybe you can blame God for what they did."

No, I would not, because Baha'u'llah wrote that anyone who laid claim to a Revelation direct from God, before the expiration of a full thousand years (before 2852 AD) would eb a lying imposter.

How convenient.
Also, Muhammad said he was the last of god's messengers, which makes Bahullah a lying imposter.

I have belief which is based upon the evidence.

Your belief is based on claims, not evidence.

There is no assumption that God exists, there is belief based upon the evidence.
The existence of God can never be proven. The only evidence that there is a God is the Messengers of God so we have to believe in the Messengers FIRST, before we can believe in God.

You are just going round in circles.
You cannot believe a person is a messenger of god unless you believe there is a god for them to be messenger of. It is water-tight logic.

That is a straw man since I have said repeatedly that the claim IS NOT the evidence.
When you ignore what I say as if I never said it that shows you are not listening.

That is the implication of the words used by Bahaullah.
Despite the flowery platitudes, everything he said has a meaning, and the meaning of the passage you quoted was basically, "You must believe I am god's messenger because I am god's messenger".

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

There is nothing there that even comes close to being "evidence" That there is a god or that Bahaullah was his messenger.

"The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self." - I mean, come on! This is the opening gambit?
"Next to this testimony is His Revelation" - Bahaullah's writings are just flowery platitudes, often rehashing earlier beliefs. Nothing even close to remarkable.

And then there is the silver bullet...
"He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth" - This is basically saying that his claims are the proof of his claims.

No Messenger of God ever did anything 'bad' in the sight of God.
What seems bad to fallible humans is not bad in the sight of God.

1. More question begging.
2. So things like execution by torture, killing prisoners and slavery, killing prisoners are considered acceptable by god.
3. By extension, you consider execution by torture, killing prisoners and slavery to be acceptable. Nice!

 

[KWED]

We are talking about ethical good.

Ah, so when you say that we would have no free will, you didn't actually mean it. You simply meant that we wouldn't have the opportunity to choose evil because evil would not exist.
A bit like having no culinary free will if chicken didn't exist?

Without evil existing, I can choose to give to charity or not. To volunteer for charities or not.
If I chose to do either, I would have the freedom to choose which, and by how much.

Note: (This is important) If something has never existed, then not being able to choose it does not impinge on free will. Free will only affects what does exist. In fact, the very idea of not being able to choose something that has never existed is fundamentally incoherent!
Does the fact that an ethical concept has never existed (let's call it evod) mean that we don't have free will now? Obviously not. QED.

 

[KWED]

Does the world revolve around you? Should it have been revealed just because YOU need to know?

Same applies to you. Just because you don't care, why should I be kept in the dark?
Surely the default position is one of informing those who want to know stuff, rather than not telling anyone because of a few who aren't interested.
Does the teacher start every morning with "Hands up all those who don't want to learn anything", and then sending the whole class home when half the room puts their hand up.

Nothing, because we do not need to know and could never understand it.

There you go again, speaking for me.
I want to know, and I might be able to understand it. I've got my head around some pretty complex physics in my postgrad studies.

No, I do not believe he was a messenger of God because he said he was. I have told you that umpteen million times. I believe based upon the evidence, NOT the claim.

But as you admitted earlier, the "evidence" is what he said (ie. "his claims").
So before you accepted that he was a messenger of god (by reading his claims), why did you believe his claims?

Fine then, you are free to believe that, but if you believe that why are we still discussing this?

Because it's fun.

What I believe about the Writings of Baha'u'llah is that they are God's own Book...

*sigh*
Yes, but why? So far all you have come up with basically amounts to "because he said it is".

“His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Gleanings, p. 270

And right on cue. There is Bahaullah saying that the book he wrote is from god. Why do you believe him?
(Yes, I know, because in the book it says that it is god's book and because Bahaullah is god's messenger you believe everything he says, including the stuff about him being god's messenger )

Spiritual growth.

Why didn't he create a universe where suffering is not required for spiritual growth?
Why didn't he create a universe where spiritual growth is not necessary?
What even is "spiritual growth" and why is it necessary?

You tell me and then we will both know, and I am the one who should be complaining because I got the short end of the stick, and I have endured endless suffering, through no fault of my own.

I will tell you now...
It is just chance and environment. There is no god making your life hard and mine easy for some unknown purpose.

That is true, but not everything has been ordained and made happen by God, only some things have been. Please refer back to the OP, I explained it there.

So you admit that god removes our free will in come things.
Why does he do that? How is that just or fair?

We cannot know what has been ordained by God vs. what happened as a result of free will.

Earthquakes? They have nothing to do with free will so must be caused by god, yes?
If they are not, why does he allow them to kill thousands (including little children), often through terrible pain and suffering?

God knows everything that will ever happen but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of what happens.

Never said it was, but god's foreknowledge makes every event inevitable. If god knows your great-great grandson will assassinate the World President, then no one and nothing can stop him. The security services cannot prevent him, and no one can talk him out of it.

Humans are the cause, God's foreknowledge is an attribute of God.

So humans cause earthquakes and droughts and infant cancer? How so?