Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

Some things don't need to take place. Even we (humans) prevent things. We don't just let things happen. If someone wants to hit someone we grab the hand. If I give my kid for example a phone we first have to talk about rules and I have to watch over how is it used and intervene when needed... If my kid is starting to get sick I give medication to prevent worsening...

Yes, bad things can happen. I see this as a necessary evil inherent in the existence of something inferior to God. But there is supposed to be also God who loves us all, is involved in our affairs and able to act in our history.

Hypothetically speaking, an omnipotent could act to prevent bad things from happening, but if God stopped all of what we consider 'bad things' from happening that would upset all the order in the world, which is based upon human free will choices causing things to happen.

That said, God might intercede on our behalf if we pray, but we can never know how or when God does that.

 

[rational experiences]

A man theist scientist gods speaker by man..human man..theist thinker.

Humans words actually.

Says.....I did a new experiment based on old causes in our heavens.

Position one nuclear power plant with collider. Overheated blew up.

Shut down. Both.

Thank goodness God heavens saved my machine. Position one all his other nuclear power plants. Still active.

Nuclear model update pyramid model he said was a better model than...
Desert pyramid...blew up.
Stonehenge reinvented theme...blew up.
Nuclear model...blew up.

Maths science gained earth mass hole. Owned controlled by man against God earth mass mass as a future change by nuclear causes into hole. By his exact man controlled terms.

Advised.

Pre calculated already and mass predicted.

Builds new machine mind possessed. Doesn't change anything by button pushing new machine....until science maths calculated against earths mass was removal by his nuclear model. Occurred in its exact moment.

When it happened. Predicted.

Ignores what he knew himself. Science by men only.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Hypothetically speaking, an omnipotent could act to prevent bad things from happening, but if God stopped all of what we consider 'bad things' from happening that would upset all the order in the world, which is based upon human free will choices causing things to happen.

That said, God might intercede on our behalf if we pray, but we can never know how or when God does that.

Natural bad things have nothing to do with free will and even free will has limits. Freedom of one person ends where human rights of another start.

I think healing a child with cancer or stopping a rapist wouldn't upset the order. Right the opposite. Or should we close down hospitals, police offices, fire departments...?

Exactly. God's (supposed) intercession can't be distinguished from no intercession. No one has grown back a leg or something similar.

 

[Trailblazer]

Natural bad things have nothing to do with free will and even free will has limits. Freedom of one person ends where human rights of another start.

That is true.

I think healing a child with cancer or stopping a rapist wouldn't upset the order.

Right the opposite. Or should we close down hospitals, police offices, fire departments...?

It would upset the order if God healed all the children with cancer instead of allowing people to treat and cancer in hospitals. It would upset the order if God stopped all rapists instead of allowing the rapists to stop themselves or allowing police departments to deal with them.

Exactly. God's (supposed) intercession can't be distinguished from no intercession. No one has grown back a leg or something similar.

You are correct, we cannot tell them apart, but that does not mean God is not interceding.
Of course tat can never be proven but I believe that God interceded for me many times today by sending people to my aid.

 

[rational experiences]

A theist began human. Brain prickled burnt. Asteroid mass mind possessed.

Fallen Satan star the God is science.

Today said he wanted earths mass transported time shifted.

His thesis I pretend earth is a sun asteroid.

When it's a planet a one of entity.

Possessed first...possessed at our lifes end. Real.

He said his God in science came from the cosmos. Says it as a man's thinking.

It's why his science God terms bible never healed anyone.

It only attacked us.

Natural ice melt caused humans sacrificed life to be saved. It was hurt to be titled sacrificed it wasn't healed it was saved.

Temporary causes in health changed bio then disappeared.

Inherited defects still exist as sex passes on the gene mutation.

Why God doesn't heal as it's already notified.

O earth reactive isn't loving.
Heavens reactive isn't loving.

Once a human theist about God loved us...then he didn't. All said in the use his bio only human mind.

Any story by human terms only.

If I tell just a human story. And I'm not a God. I also state hence my stories about origin creator are only stories. As I know who I am myself a human.

Theists egotists however don't.

The argument no man is God is said to a human theist.

Man was good. God never was. As in fact it isn't good.

We live says the story a stable earned warm... warm blooded bio cell life.

Extreme cold god reaction cooling extreme heat is evil. In both reviews.

Known by a balanced rational just a human thinker. Warm blooded identity my own self human living in heavens exact.

Who always said there isn't any ...other....God.

Man theists other God terms falling Satan burning star mass visitor.

Lied.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

Which suffering are you referring to which is not man made?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which suffering are you referring to which is not man made?

Suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

Do you mean that we have to die, get sick and old age etc? If so then my understanding is that we were not given eternal pain free bodies here because we were only meant to stay here for a short period after moving to another realm.

But to add that applies to everyone equally. We just die in different ways some young some old but we all must leave here.

 

[Nakosis]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

There was no need for God to create darkness.

Darkness is simply the absence of light.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean that we have to die, get sick and old age etc? If so then my understanding is that we were not given eternal pain free bodies here because we were only meant to stay here for a short period after moving to another realm.

No, I am not referring to old age, getting sick, and dying. I am referring to anything that happens to us in this life that we do not choose with our free will. Anything that is not freely chosen is the result of fate and predestination, for which God i responsible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Darkness is simply the absence of light.

That's true, just as evil is the absence of good.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, I am not referring to old age, getting sick, and dying. I am referring to anything that happens to us in this life that we do not choose with our free will. Anything that is not freely chosen is the result of fate and predestination, for which God i responsible.

That was my question. Can you give some examples? If it’s not death, illness or old age then there is every likelihood it is of our doing and our fault.

 

[Trailblazer]

That was my question. Can you give some examples? If it’s not death, illness or old age then there is every likelihood it is of our doing and our fault.

An example would be that someone got raped. That was not their doing since they did not choose to get raped, so it was not their fault. It was their fate.

Another example would be someone who gets in an accident caused by a drunk driver. That was not their doing since they did not cause the accident, so it was not their fault. It was their fate.

The rape was the rapist's fault and the drunk driving accident was the drunk driver's fault, but neither one of these were the victims' fault.

 

[loverofhumanity]

An example would be that someone got raped. That was not their doing since they did not choose to get raped, so it was not their fault. It was their fate.

Another example would be someone who gets in an accident caused by a drunk driver. That was not their doing since they did not cause the accident, so it was not their fault. It was their fate.

The rape was the rapist's fault and the drunk driving accident was the drunk driver's fault, but neither one of these were the victims' fault.

How can it be fate if society is promoting an intoxicating drink which is known by itself to cause death if driving? Societies choice killed the person not God. The drinker who chose to drive no doubt will be charged with murder not God or fate. Society is at fault for wrongfully assuming that to sell alcohol and promote promiscuity is safe.

Why didn’t God intervene? But He did. He sent Baha’u’llah with laws against the drinking of alcohol and to be chaste but humanity ‘chose’ to ignore Him. Who’s fault?

My belief is that things like rape and drunkenness are caused by the conscious deliberate materialistic social construct of society by man. A society which models women as sex objects and promotes alcohol consumption is responsible for such things. Lack of spirituality is what is the demise of present day society and the cause is not God but the turning away by society from God. For God has always taught chastity and in recent Revelations drinking has been forbidden.

You know this quote from Baha’u’llah regarding rape and in it He also establishes that the world of humanity not God is responsible for the presence of rape and that His teachings will rid the world of it.

‘My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith. For instance [in the future] should a woman ..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...’ Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, ‘Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.[133] (Revelation of Baha’u’llah vol 2)

Again alcohol related deaths are only prevalent in a society which promotes the drinking of alcohol a man made choice. God forbids consuming that which alters the mind. But society promotes it out of its own choice.

The victim is of course innocent but man, not God is at fault for promoting alcohol and promiscuity. Those are the consequences of the deliberate ungodly choices of society.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Even if we quote devastating cyclones and floods then we still blame God?

But a large majority of scientists are putting the blame of climate change causing all these catastrophes and that humans are to blame.

Because greedy man burns the forests and logs them for profit, pollutes the atmosphere with toxic clouds of chemicals from greedy industries causing even the air to become unbreathable and then poisoning rivers killing fish and causing environmental disasters we are getting more and more extreme weather events.

God teaches ‘moderation in all things’ but man goes to extremes so we all suffer. I cannot blame God in all honesty for what is man’s own greed and disrespect for nature.

I cannot see anything bad God created only that we make bad choices.

 

[Koldo]

How can it be fate if society is promoting an intoxicating drink which is known by itself to cause death if driving? Societies choice killed the person not God. The drinker who chose to drive no doubt will be charged with murder not God or fate. Society is at fault for wrongfully assuming that to sell alcohol and promote promiscuity is safe.

Why didn’t God intervene? But He did. He sent Baha’u’llah with laws against the drinking of alcohol and to be chaste but humanity ‘chose’ to ignore Him. Who’s fault?

My belief is that things like rape and drunkenness are caused by the conscious deliberate materialistic social construct of society by man. A society which models women as sex objects and promotes alcohol consumption is responsible for such things. Lack of spirituality is what is the demise of present day society and the cause is not God but the turning away by society from God. For God has always taught chastity and in recent Revelations drinking has been forbidden.

You know this quote from Baha’u’llah regarding rape and in it He also establishes that the world of humanity not God is responsible for the presence of rape and that His teachings will rid the world of it.

‘My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith. For instance [in the future] should a woman ..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...’ Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, ‘Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.[133] (Revelation of Baha’u’llah vol 2)

Again alcohol related deaths are only prevalent in a society which promotes the drinking of alcohol a man made choice. God forbids consuming that which alters the mind. But society promotes it out of its own choice.

The victim is of course innocent but man, not God is at fault for promoting alcohol and promiscuity. Those are the consequences of the deliberate ungodly choices of society.

God could intervene in a more significant way than sending a messenger though. It is God's choice not to.

Let me use an analogy. Imagine you are walking in the middle of the woods and happen to find a newborn on the ground, with no one else close by. You wait for about an hour, and no one shows up. Rather than picking him up, you walks away towards the closest houses. You find a village a few kilometers away and start knocking on the houses to let people know there is a baby in the middle of the woods. But they don't care. You go back into the woods the next day, the baby is dead. Are you responsible for this death?

You didn't directly put the baby in that situation. But you could have helped in a more meaningful way than being a messenger.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can it be fate if society is promoting an intoxicating drink which is known by itself to cause death if driving? Societies choice killed the person not God. The drinker who chose to drive no doubt will be charged with murder not God or fate. Society is at fault for wrongfully assuming that to sell alcohol and promote promiscuity is safe.

All I was saying is that it was the fate of the person who got raped or got hurt by the drunk driver in the auto accident to have that happen to them. The ones who are at fault are the rapist and the drunk driver.

Why didn’t God intervene? But He did. He sent Baha’u’llah with laws against the drinking of alcohol and to be chaste but humanity ‘chose’ to ignore Him. Who’s fault?

It is not God's fault. God did not intervene Himself to stop those people from doing those things because that is not God's responsibility. It is their responsibility do know better so it is their fault.

My belief is that things like rape and drunkenness are caused by the conscious deliberate materialistic social construct of society by man. A society which models women as sex objects and promotes alcohol consumption is responsible for such things. Lack of spirituality is what is the demise of present day society and the cause is not God but the turning away by society from God. For God has always taught chastity and in recent Revelations drinking has been forbidden.

Lack of spirituality is what is the demise of present day society and the cause is not God but the people in society turning away from God.

How can you blame society? People make up society, so people are to blame. People don't have to follow along and blindly follow what most people in society choose to do. They can think for themselves.

You know this quote from Baha’u’llah regarding rape and in it He also establishes that the world of humanity not God is responsible for the presence of rape and that His teachings will rid the world of it.

No, God is not responsible for rape, people are.

Again alcohol related deaths are only prevalent in a society which promotes the drinking of alcohol a man made choice. God forbids consuming that which alters the mind. But society promotes it out of its own choice.

Although advertising promotes drinking, society does not promote drinking alcohol, people choose to drink it,

The victim is of course innocent but man, not God is at fault for promoting alcohol and promiscuity. Those are the consequences of the deliberate ungodly choices of society.

Consequences of the deliberate and ungodly choices of people in society.

 

[Truthseeker]

All I was saying is that it was the fate of the person who got raped or got hurt by the drunk driver in the auto accident to have that happen to them. The ones who are at fault are the rapist and the drunk driver.

Do you mean if you went to the future, it would look inevitable because it happened. That's how it looks to God. God knowing it would happen we know doesn't mean that we are not responsible for our actions.

 

[Truthseeker]

How can you blame society? People make up society, so people are to blame. People don't have to follow along and blindly follow what most people in society choose to do. They can think for themselves.

Shoghi Effendi said that society influences the individual, and also the individual influences society. I'm paraphrasing, because I can't remember the quote well enough to find it.

What this means is that we as indivuals can with effort influence people around us mainly through improving ourselves, and in turn the improved society can improves us as well. It can be an improving cycle, or a degrading cycle.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God could intervene in a more significant way than sending a messenger though. It is God's choice not to.

Yes .. Almighty God has given us the responsibility of policing ourselves, but has not left us without guidance.
He intervenes as He wills, and He is aware of all things.
He is full of pity for us, but does not love inequities.

The sequel is for those who ward off evil.