"Quiet Quitting" - it's nothing new.

[Twilight Hue]

This is why one should never work at something one doesn’t love. If you love what you do you never work.

Problem is all those things people don't love to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yea. That's pretty much the actual case.

Still, being lazy is immensely fun.

Wanna take up my "lazy" workload? Hope you're good with cars.

 

[Shaul]

That's not really completely true in my experience. I am self employed and do something I like doing but it's still really hard work. I don't think there's anything worth doing that doesn't have it's bad parts.

If you really love it you love even the “bad” parts.

 

[Alien826]

Slightly at a tangent, but can we play "what if"?

Let's say that robotics and AI develop to the point where nobody has to work at all. The robots do everything. The only "work" that is still be done by humans is purely voluntary. Are people still "lazy" if they don't work?

Another question. Why is it in the USA that to praise someone we say "hard working". Isn't "works enough" sufficient? Why do we need to work "hard" to be approved of?

 

[Revoltingest]

On an amusing note, years and years ago I worked with a guy, who, to put it mildly, wasn't fond of management. When he heard about something "they" did that he didn't like, he would say "That's it, I'm going to fine them half an hour's work (the time varied by his view of the offense)". He would then look at his watch and sit for exactly half an hour doing nothing. Funny, but I think people do that, consciously or unconsciously, but without the theatrics.

The guy is a thief.
Hating management is an excuse.
No one owes him a living.

 

[Alien826]

If you really love it you love even the “bad” parts.

That's a bit of a stretch. When I first got into computer programming, I enjoyed it so much that if I got bored on Sunday I would look foreword to Monday! I still didn't like the commute. Or the stupid stuff the "suits" made me do that was nothing to do with programming. It's really a balance, isn't it?

 

[Wildswanderer]

If you really love it you love even the “bad” parts.

Does anyone love paperwork?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Let's say that robotics and AI develop to the point where nobody has to work at all. The robots do everything. The only "work" that is still be done by humans is purely voluntary. Are people still "lazy" if they don't work?

Yes ... people need something to do to feel purpose. Work takes many forms.

 

[Alien826]

The guy is a thief.
Hating management is an excuse.
No one owes him a living.

Right, same as the other "thieves" discussing football around the water cooler. And the "thieves" who are just so fed up that they [edit] don't work as hard as they could. He just formalized it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right, same as the other "thieves" discussing football around the water cooler. And the "thieves" who are just so fed up that they work as hard as they could. He just formalized it.

It's easy to fall into office chatter.
As long as it's not excessive, it can enhance
the workplace. I'm more productive when I'm
with friendly folk. Just don't go overboard.
But to steal time with intention...that's worse.

 

[Alien826]

Yes ... people need something to do to feel purpose. Work takes many forms.

We may be using different definitions of "work". Work, as I define it for this discussion is "something we only do because we have to". If you are going to include hobbies in "work" then it's a different discussion. I agree that most people need something to do to be happy. And that would continue in my fictional society.

My point is that "lazy" is a word that implies disapproval. It's justified to some extent while things need to be done, and to be fair everyone should share the burden to some extent (if able). My fictional society doesn't have that need though. If nobody worked at all, everything would go on perfectly well. Now, would you still call someone who chose to do nothing at all "lazy" with all its negative connotations? Why shouldn't he make that choice?

 

[Alien826]

It's easy to fall into office chatter.
As long as it's not excessive, it can enhance
the workplace. I'm more productive when I'm
with friendly folk. Just don't go overboard.
But to steal time with intention...that's worse.

What if the miscreant got more done in his work day than the guy in the next desk that has his nose to the grindstone all day? Is the hard worker stealing by being less competent? You don't have to answer, just admit that it's all more complicated than a simple time equation.

Is it also thievery when companies demand free labor (unpaid overtime)? I'm happier with it if it cuts both ways.

 

[Wildswanderer]

We may be using different definitions of "work". Work, as I define it for this discussion is "something we only do because we have to".

Then half the work I do doesn't qualify. I work very hard at hobbies that I might at best, break even on, because I like the experience. That doesn't mean I love ever part of it, however. Life on earth is never going to be all pleasure and no effort.

 

[Alien826]

Then half the work I do doesn't qualify. I work very hard at hobbies that I might at best, break even on, because I like the experience. That doesn't mean I love ever part of it, however. Life on earth is never going to be all pleasure and no effort.

Who said it was?

And you're right, your hobbies don't qualify as work under my definition. The point is that you can chose either to engage in them or not. If your basic life needs require your doing something you don't want to do, you'll do it. That's work.

Is this really so difficult? I'm trying to peel away the layers of "work is good in and of itself" and show that isn't necessarily so.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Who said it was?

And you're right, your hobbies don't qualify as work under my definition. The point is that you can chose either to engage in them or not. If your basic life needs require your doing something you don't want to do, you'll do it. That's work.

Is this really so difficult? I'm trying to peel away the layers of "work is good in and of itself" and show that isn't necessarily so.

With that definition I don't have to work at all. I'm sure the government will ensure I don't die. I know people who go that route. Work is good in itself... it's a proven fact that men in particular need it for life to have purpose.

 

[Revoltingest]

What if the miscreant got more done in his work day than the guy in the next desk that has his nose to the grindstone all day?

Then he should be getting higher pay.
But by purposely stealing time, he lowered his value.

I'd rather not pursue every hypothetical
used to justify such thievery.

 

[Erebus]

There's also an element of culture involved. I'm an older generation, and grew up when we were taught a "work ethic" that put self in second place really. These days, that seems bizarre to younger people in the work force, and that's okay, too.

No generation is going to be the same as the previous one. The world changes, notions change, and we change with them.

As it happens, I still like getting up in the morning and going to work. And I'm almost 75. Other people place more value on family (I never had that, so it didn't occupy any of my concern) and personal time and growth. All fine.

All that really matters, in my view, is that however all the parts of a society fit together, however they choose to do things -- is that the society works, that the needs of all are fulfilled, one way or another. And that doesn't have to be the way it once was.

I think there are a few reasons a lot of younger people view work differently to older generations. This won't be an exhaustive list by any means but I can give a few examples based on my own experience. This is also coming from a UK perspective so there may be differences elsewhere.

1. You're disposable.
Employers can find plenty of loopholes to fire people whenever they like with no consequences. An example of that is in a job I worked (a government sector job by the way) where you had a 12 month contract and a 12 month probationary period. At the end of the 12 months, you could take another 12 month contract with another 12 month probationary period. The result was that you had no job security and no room for promotion so aiming to climb the ladder was pointless.
A lot of companies will also routinely fire people after a few months. They'll bring in a group of people during a busy period with no intention of keeping them on.

2. Employers regularly find ways to pay beneath minimum wage.
My brother fell foul of one of the many "apprenticeship" schemes in the UK. In theory, you spend some time working for under minimum wage in exchange for training in a skilled trade. My brother ended up working 50 hour weeks for £2 an hour at a hotel. Instead of learning a trade, he spent that time in the kitchen washing dishes. As soon as the apprenticeship period came to an end and the hotel would have had to pay at least minimum wage, he was fired. The hotel then brought on a new apprentice and the cycle began anew.

Workfare was another infamous way of getting work for below minimum wage. The short version is that people were put into jobs in order to continue claiming jobseeker's allowance. So they had jobs... they just didn't get a wage for doing it. There was also no requirement for the companies they worked for to offer them a position.

3. Employers can lie to you about what your job is.
There's a Mitchell and Webb sketch that I think sums this one up nicely:

The short version is that the job that's advertised or that you're told about during the interview may not be representative of the job you actually end up doing. There's no requirement for employers to give a written contract in the UK which gives them a lot of wiggle room in false advertising. They can also use this to pile on extra work for no extra pay. My brother spent a long time in a manager position while still being paid an entry level wage.

4. You're unlikely to find work in a small business.
Much of what I described takes place in larger companies and civil service positions. They have the clout and knowledge to play the system and dodge legal consequences for exploitative practices. While small business owners aren't all angels by any means, you generally have a better time with them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of available jobs aren't in small businesses.



All in all then, I don't think it's unreasonable* for young people to have a jaded view of work ethic. Employers generally view you as a machine to be used and discarded without a second thought. I've also seen middle-aged and older people get a nasty shock if they leave or lose a job they've had for a long time. The job market is nothing like what it was when they were in their 20s/early 30s.


*I know you aren't saying it's unreasonable here. I just wanted to give some of my thoughts on why this generational shift in attitudes happened.

 

[Alien826]

With that definition I don't have to work at all. I'm sure the government will ensure I don't die. I know people who go that route. Work is good in itself... it's a proven fact that men in particular need it for life to have purpose.

Don't work at all? I can recommend it. I've been retired for 9 years now and I still love it. Unlike your claim for (all? most?) men I haven't had the slightest urge to work. Fortunately I have enough income so I don't have to earn money, and I will spend money to avoid work if I can. For example, I pay people to do house cleaning, which I hate with a passion. If I ever feel a bit "down" I can still cheer myself up by thinking that I don't have to work any more.

That's not to say I just sit around all day doing nothing. I watch TV, I'm learning to play a clarinet, do some gardening, I enjoy video games and .. oh yes, meet interesting people on Internet forums. Remember my definition though. None of this is work to me. Of course there are still some things that qualify as work that I can't avoid, like cleaning up the kitchen after a meal, but I would avoid those too if I could.

I wonder, though, if we are only disagreeing over the difference in definition? I'd agree that activity is necessary to most people. These activities can involve great exertion, but still be enjoyed, and obviously, as you say, there will be some "work" component, like packing to go on vacation. I agree with you on that. Can you see though what I'm getting at? We've been conditioned to feel that work is "good" in and of itself, and that has enabled a myriad exploitations. Is there really something "holy" about work?

 

[Alien826]

Then he should be getting higher pay.
But by purposely stealing time, he lowered his value.

I'd rather not pursue every hypothetical
used to justify such thievery.

OK. Happy Birthday!

 

[Wildswanderer]

Don't work at all? I can recommend it. I've been retired for 9 years now and I still love it. Unlike your claim for (all? most?) men I haven't had the slightest urge to work. Fortunately I have enough income so I don't have to earn money, and I will spend money to avoid work if I can. For example, I pay people to do house cleaning, which I hate with a passion. If I ever feel a bit "down" I can still cheer myself up by thinking that I don't have to work any more.

That's not to say I just sit around all day doing nothing. I watch TV, I'm learning to play a clarinet, do some gardening, I enjoy video games and .. oh yes, meet interesting people on Internet forums. Remember my definition though. None of this is work to me. Of course there are still some things that qualify as work that I can't avoid, like cleaning up the kitchen after a meal, but I would avoid those too if I could.

I wonder, though, if we are only disagreeing over the difference in definition? I'd agree that activity is necessary to most people. These activities can involve great exertion, but still be enjoyed, and obviously, as you say, there will be some "work" component, like packing to go on vacation. I agree with you on that. Can you see though what I'm getting at? We've been conditioned to feel that work is "good" in and of itself, and that has enabled a myriad exploitations. Is there really something "holy" about work?

I think there can definitely be something Holy about work. When my hands are busy, I can let my mind rest better. If I just sit, I go over all my problems and the world's problems and I can drive myself crazy.
But you being retired, have already worked and probably benefited from that work by being able to retire. That's far different than never having an occupation to start with. Look at the filthy rich. Generally their lives and relationships are a mess. They don't have to work so they get themselves in messes in all that leasure time.
So many men are without a sense of purpose today... and I think a lot of that is because they haven't been taught how to work. Yes some go to the other extreme and make work everything. That's easy to do also.
Balance doesn't necessarily come naturally.
As far as me, I will probably fall over working. I can't afford to retire.