Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

[icehorse]

These are philosophical terms. Do I have to be convinced with the terms of Philosophy or believe in the terms of Philosophy to find a common ground just to facilitate my friend @icehorse? While the common ground is already wide open having common language of "reasons" and "arguments". And our friend @icehorse is not short of them, I am sure. Right, please?

Regards

Hi @paarsurrey ,

When I asked @Muffled for a clarification, that was so we could continue to discuss these topics. As Albert Einstein said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler".

What Einstein meant was that it's dangerous to attempt to oversimplify things. To me, it's important to understand what you think about your god. For example, do you have some scripture that you believe accurately describes the god you believe in?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi @paarsurrey ,

When I asked @Muffled for a clarification, that was so we could continue to discuss these topics. As Albert Einstein said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler".

What Einstein meant was that it's dangerous to attempt to oversimplify things. To me, it's important to understand what you think about your god. For example, do you have some scripture that you believe accurately describes the god you believe in?

"do you have some scripture that you believe accurately describes the god you believe in"

Friend @icehorse !

Yes, I am quite certain on well considered ground that, Quran is the Word of G-d and that is why I named this thread "Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad ".
I have quoted many verses from Quran in this thread the contents of which gives the claim. And some of them, I understand, do for sure define G-d* I believe in, and there are many more. And it very meaningfully describes the attributes of my/our G-d. Doesn't it, please?

*[1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah

This is the whole first chapter of Quran. It is called ummul kitab or the summary of Quran.
Quran is a brief (not voluminous) Word of Revelation and it is its first chapter, the brief of the brief.
It mentions Allah the proper name of my/our G-d and four basic attributes of my/our G-d that define Him as an introduction to know of Him (colored in magenta and blue by me) from which other attributes branch out and are mentioned in the whole Quran.

Regards
_______________
#6 paarsurrey, #47 paarsurrey, #48 paarsurrey, #73 paarsurrey,

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi @paarsurrey ,

When I asked @Muffled for a clarification, that was so we could continue to discuss these topics. As Albert Einstein said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler".

What Einstein meant was that it's dangerous to attempt to oversimplify things. To me, it's important to understand what you think about your god. For example, do you have some scripture that you believe accurately describes the god you believe in?

"that was so we could continue to discuss these topics."

One is most welcome. It is our pleasure indeed.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[35:41]قُلۡ اَرَءَیۡتُمۡ شُرَکَآءَکُمُ الَّذِیۡنَ تَدۡعُوۡنَ مِنۡ دُوۡنِ اللّٰہِ ؕ اَرُوۡنِیۡ مَاذَا خَلَقُوۡا مِنَ الۡاَرۡضِ اَمۡ لَہُمۡ شِرۡکٌ فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ ۚ اَمۡ اٰتَیۡنٰہُمۡ کِتٰبًا فَہُمۡ عَلٰی بَیِّنَتٍ مِّنۡہُ ۚ بَلۡ اِنۡ یَّعِدُ الظّٰلِمُوۡنَ بَعۡضُہُمۡ بَعۡضًا اِلَّا غُرُوۡرًا ﴿۴۱﴾

ENGLISH
Say, ‘Have you seen your associate- gods whom you call on beside Allah? Show me then what they have created of the earth. Or have they a share in the creation of the heavens? Or have We given them a Book so that they have an evidence therefrom?’ Nay, the wrongdoers promise one another nothing but deception.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 35: Fatir

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.

1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?

Regards
____________

• I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
• "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
• "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
• Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, I am quite certain on well considered ground that, Quran is the Word of G-d and that is why I named this thread "Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad ".

And @Muffled

So @paarsurrey, you are a theist, you believe that the Quran describes the supernatural being that created the universe. A "deist" is someone who does not claim that any book describes the supernatural being that created the universe.

So a theist is making a much more specific claim than a deist, and therefore the theist puts on himself a more difficult thing to prove.

For an example of how specific claims can change things consider two claims:

1 - It will rain in Paris sometime in 2020.
2 - It will rain in Paris on March 1, 2020.

Can you see how the more specific claim is harder to prove?

 

[paarsurrey]

And @Muffled

So @paarsurrey, you are a theist, you believe that the Quran describes the supernatural being that created the universe. A "deist" is someone who does not claim that any book describes the supernatural being that created the universe.

So a theist is making a much more specific claim than a deist, and therefore the theist puts on himself a more difficult thing to prove.

For an example of how specific claims can change things consider two claims:

1 - It will rain in Paris sometime in 2020.
2 - It will rain in Paris on March 1, 2020.

Can you see how the more specific claim is harder to prove?

"1 - It will rain in Paris sometime in 2020.
2 - It will rain in Paris on March 1, 2020."

Friend!
I made no such predictions.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

"1 - It will rain in Paris sometime in 2020.
2 - It will rain in Paris on March 1, 2020."

Friend!
I made no such predictions.

Regards

Hi @paarsurrey , i am hoping that we are conversing in good faith. If so, the example I gave of "rain" was just an example to demonstrate why specific claims require more support than general claims.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi @paarsurrey , i am hoping that we are conversing in good faith. If so, the example I gave of "rain" was just an example to demonstrate why specific claims require more support than general claims.

We make supposition at all and talk about suppositions at all, why not the real ones, please?

Regards

 

[icehorse]

We make supposition at all and talk about suppositions at all, why not the real ones, please?

Regards

Hey @paarsurrey - In general, we're discussing complex topics. Sometimes we use examples to make sure that we're understanding each other.

 

[Muffled]

Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad

"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "

Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:

[35:28]اَلَمۡ تَرَ اَنَّ اللّٰہَ اَنۡزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً ۚ فَاَخۡرَجۡنَا بِہٖ ثَمَرٰتٍ مُّخۡتَلِفًا اَلۡوَانُہَا ؕ وَ مِنَ الۡجِبَالِ جُدَدٌۢ بِیۡضٌ وَّ حُمۡرٌ مُّخۡتَلِفٌ اَلۡوَانُہَا وَ غَرَابِیۡبُ سُوۡدٌ ﴿۲۸﴾
Dost thou not see that Allah sends down water from the sky and We bring forth therewith fruits of different colours; and among the mountains are streaks white and red, of diverse hues and others raven black;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 35: Fatir

Right, please?

For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.

1. Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
2. Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
3. Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
4. Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?

Regards
____________

• I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
• "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
• "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
• Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.

I agree that those phrases qualify as hearing from God. I also believe that somewhere along the line Muhammad is able to hear from God directly but I am not sure how solid that is.

 

[Muffled]

The best way to find out is to read what Baha'u'llah wrote, there are no better Tablets than the ones Baha'u'llah wrote to the kings, rulers religious authorities and peoples of the world where He clearly declared the Message from God for this day.

Thus your choice, here is the link

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

I do not ask you to look, I have no desire for you to look and I suspect you and all I post to will not look.

My only part is to offer the choices, pull the plank from my eye and live the life demanded from what I offer.

I do wish for you and all, to partake of the best choices that life can offer, all if your own free will.

Regards Tony

I found it difficult to read because of the internet format but from the little I read there was nothing from God.

 

[Muffled]

I can understand that perspective. Let me ask you this: Are you more of a theist or a deist?

I am God speaking to you.

 

[icehorse]

I am God speaking to you.

Can you say more? Do you see me as god speaking back to you?